WoofnHoof

I'm being naughty and haven't read the whole thread but the last post strikes a chord because it has been suggested numerous times here that performance testing of breeding stock would be a good measure of health and soundness but inevitably people have a problem with it because some breeds can't be tested for their original purpose (even though I'm sure they could participate in something to prove a dogs soundness) or breeders don't have time to train for sports etc etc, of course a scheme will fall over if it includes any kind of mandatory testing because there will be people who carry on because they can't do it for this or that reason, those topics always die a natural death which is why nothing gets done, united we stand and all that. ETA not the last post now but Sandras response to Erny re performance testing.

I'm a bit behind in the discussion here but IMO the main problem with anthropomorphism is not the association of certain emotional states because many of these are probably quite accurate (in as much as anyone can really tell) it's more the attribution of the human characteristic of complex reasoning which tends to cause problems in human/animal interactions. A lot of the 'he knows he did the wrong thing' is reliant upon a more complex reasoning process than most mammals are capable of and that is the part many people have trouble with, it's easy for us to make conclusions based on a few clues because of our ability to organsie our thoughts and apply timeframes and contexts etc, this is quite often well beyond what an animal is capable of and people can forget that it is our complex reasoning which is really the only thing that is significantly different about us.

The head position on a well trained and fit dressage horse is meant to be a reflection of the rest of the body, the carriage of the head is not so much influenced by pulling on the reins (theoretically and in a non-rollkur training regimen) as it is by the natural tendency of a horse to stretch his neck and allow the muscles to flow through from the back. The higher dressage movements are all about encouraging the horse to use his body in the most athletic way to enhance natural movement even with the burden of a rider. Modern dressage attempts to recreate the natural exhuberance of movement, have you seen a stallion showing off for a mare? He will passage and arch his neck and prance around like he's floating on air - that is what real dressage attempts to emulate. Whether it is achievable and sustainable without cost is an ethical question that will no doubt be debated in the future but the original intent of dressage training is to train the horse to move obediently and athletically, without the training to develop muscles which allow self carriage those movements would be ugly, hurried and stlited due to the lack of ability to lift and carry their own weight as well as the riders weight. That's the theory anyway Reverend Jo rollkur and caged hens are symptoms of the same cancer, animal welfare doesn't come before the hip pocket and that has to change first. Rollkur will be easier to stamp out if the powers that be wake up and realise that dressage needs all the good PR it can get, the solution in this case is easy, stop giving any marks to Anky for non-existent halts and trailing hocks and stop giving Totilas gold medals when he moves like two horses that have been cut in half and patched together. The RSPCA can't do anything about getting rid of battery cages in the near future and they know it, the only thing that will stop it is getting people to buy free range every time they buy eggs and people on this very board have stated they wont buy free range if it costs more so until the majority of people start putting their money where their mouth is nothing will change. That is why I'm happy to see any welfare issue get headlines because it forces people to think about animal welfare and the more they think about it the more it will encroach on their everyday choices and collective conciousness. That is why I think each issue is equally important, I comment on equine issues because that is what I know best, no doubt there are poultry fanciers who are arguing just as vehmently for better welfare for hens, I'm not going to tell you which issue is more important because like I said I see them as equally important I just know more about horses than I do about hens so I'm going to weigh in more to a topic on that issue than I will on the hen issue. Have you asked the RSPCA why they choose to weigh in on the issues they do? Have you any ideas for them on how they can achieve better outcomes in terms of chicken welfare? If you've got a magic bullet for the hen issue I'm sure they'd be overjoyed to hear it, I can't think of a solution that industry and the public purse will swallow but if you can that's great.

I always thought this was not desired anyway . IME points are removed for your horse being behind the verticle. When I purchased my current boy (as a 5 yo .... he's now 30yo and retired) he'd been "re-mouthed" .... - OT to go into detail other than to tell you that when I got on him he would not allow me to take up contact with the bit and in an attempt to avoid it he would move with his chin on his chest. It took me a good long while with soft hands, deep seat and a soft bit for him to take contact with the bit and work to the vertical, at least. I worked so hard to achieve this I'm surprised that top riders get away with riding behind the vertical. I never did. It's not used in the test Erny it's a 'training exercise' often used in warmup.

Actually in jumping the line is critical, you might think your horse is straight but if your body isn't you are still throwing the horse off it's line. Rollkur is an extremely important issue because it's the elite doing it, they are supposed to be setting the standard and the fact that they are using this method and still getting gold methods is indicative of the original goals and aims of this sport being eroded and this of course filters down to every level. I don't agree with everything the RSPCA does but they are providing a platform for animal welfare science, and yes there have been plenty of similar seminars about farm animal welfare too, I went to one a couple of years back the focus was on mulesing it was very interesting and yes very balanced. What exactly is wrong with asking the question about whether animals should work for us and whether they should enjoy it? It's not humanizing it's scientifically valid to explore affective emotional states in animals even though positive emotional states has largely been ignored because of the more serious need to address the negative emotional states. IMO they are two sides of the same coin, you cannot have positive without negative and you cannot look at negative emotions in animals and dismiss positive emotions, if we ignore one side we aren't looking at the whole picture. Positive states can override negative states, I worked with a guy in animal research who had to give doses of meds to pigs, traditionally these were administered by forcing the pig to swallow a pill, he found that the pigs would eat it hidden inside a marshmallow, and made the process easier as they would line up for their marshmallows every day quite happily (as much as anyone could tell they were happy anyway lol), now thousands of dollars of animal welfare research money could have been spent finding a less stressful way to force a pig to take it's meds, yet easier and quicker to find a positive solution to the problem using the positive emotions induced by the taste of marshmallows overriding the bitter pill. Simplistic I know but without looking at the positive emotions in animals (ie what makes them happy, why are they happy, how do we know they are happy etc) we cannot really say whether or not they are happy to work for us. Part of the rollkur debate has centered around the FEI concept of the elite sport horse as a 'happy athlete' which is laughable when we don't know whether they are in fact happy, sometimes it seems that way when they seem to relish the work and throw their hearts and souls into it, some people suggest a horse isn't happy unless it's standing under a tree with a full belly and not working at all. IMO every bit of animal welfare research has value whether it's tackling the big issues or not, because it all means that there are people that care enough to ask the question and that there are also people that care enough to seek the answers.

I haven't been on a holiday for years, I went to Noosa north shore a couple of times with the horses it was lovely the second time I took my chi but now you aren't allowed to take dogs. In fact most of the beach type holidays where you are allowed to take your horse you can't take your dog which I thought was quite odd since most horsey people have dogs, they do the same at events now I hate it because it's a real hassle trying to find someone to look after all the animals. Funnily enough I can find people to look after the chi and the horses but no one wants to look after the husky :D I have to go away for four days for work in a couple of weeks and I'm stressing about leaving the animals, I read horror stories about boarding and so that is out, no way can I relax and enjoy myself without them.

It's really interesting how in Germany and Finland it seems that if you don't walk your dog regularly you will have someone 'knocking on your door' but when it was mooted here there were a lot of objections to that, based on minority factors such as old dogs that can't walk or disabled owners that can't walk, I assume that it works in these other countries because these factors are taken into account? Maybe someone can answer from these countries what happens when they knock on your door? Do the authorities take extenuating circumstances (such as disability of owner or dog) when looking into why the dog isn't being walked? How are things like problem barking managed over there? Thanks to our overseas contributors by the way you are offering a great perspective :D

I think the socialization is a big part of it, it's hard to take dogs out and about here, especially in summer when you can't leave them in the car if you have to go somewhere that doesn't allow dogs (which is anywhere other than an actual pet supply shop or dog park). Most pets are dumped for behavioral reasons, barking, fighting, escaping being the major ones all of which would probably be mitigated to a large extent by the socialization aspect. I've looked after a number of Maltese x type dogs that are all shocking barkers when left outside but as soon as they are inside with their people you don't hear a peep. Other reasons pets are dumped or surrendered is because a lot of rental accommodation does not allow pets, especially indoor pets. Such different cultural perceptions are really fascinating. Elina I love that pic of your BC in the snow it's gorgeous! Can I ask you if pets are allowed in most places but not cafes or restaurants where do people leave them when they stop to eat? Are they tied up outside? Thanks

You mean this Daisy? Don't tempt me if she doesn't lose the bad attitude I'll pack her in a box and post her to you!

Sounds like Aussies tick the boxes nicely, if you want a slightly smoother coat you could also look at a cattle dog or kelpie, they may have more working drive than you need but I've seen heaps of working breeds do well as long as they get some interaction and aren't just left in the backyard ETA or you could just get a horse instead

It's not just about the choppers though, it's also about evac centres being able to allow pets which would allow people with pets to get themselves out early, not everyone will have someone that can look after all their animals for them. The Brissie evac centre initially wouldn't allow animals even though there are horse stables and chook sheds there (the show grounds) it's not like people were going to be sleeping in the stables or the chook shed anyway so there is absolutely no reason they couldnt be utilized for pet owners who I'm sure would sleep in a stable if it meant having their pet with them. There are a lot of reasons why Australias evacuation plans should incorporate measures for ensuring pet owners can take their pets, the research shows that it actually saves more human lives because there are less delays and emergency personell aren't risking their lives trying to save people who are trying to save their pets when they could have gotten out much earlier. There will always be people who leave it too late or circumstances where there is no warning but in the vast majority of cases people will take extra risks if they aren't supported in their efforts to save their pets. This was seen after hurricane Katrina when many people went back into the ruins to look for their pets before it had been declared safe, and human lives were lost.

She may just be going for the other girl because she has decided that she is the boss, or simply because she has been allowed to by your father and successfully beating up the older one may have allowed her to think she can. Hard to say without a behaviorist there to observe the behaviour and also the interactions leading up to it. By the sounds of it your father isn't willing to acknowledge the problem or work on it so if I were you I would just concentrate on keeping the dogs separate when you visit, much less stress for everyone.

Sorry to hear this Gayle, 17 years seems short to us but such a wonderful long life for a dog

Attacking older sick dogs can be an instinctive behaviour too, often dogs will know if one is sick and their instinct is to kill the weaker member or get it to leave so that it is not a hazard to the rest of the pack. I find that a lot of people tend to react to these behaviours as if there were human motives and emotions behind it and generally they aren't they are dog emotions and instincts. You can't tell the dog that we look after our oldies and dont ostracize them from the pack, you can't tell a dog that all dogs are created equal and should be treated as such, quite simply you can't tell a dog to behave within our own moral and social expectations. What you can do is manage the situation so that the dog doesn't have the opportunity to exhibit behaviour we see as unacceptable, sometimes training will do the trick sometimes separating the dog from the 'trigger'. Either way it's important to remember that all of the behaviours described in this thread are dog behaviours that come about either due to boredom, lack of training or simple instinctual pack behaviours.

I don't hate any, some I'm not a huge fan of but it's not really anything bad about the dog they just aren't my type of dog. The dog in the OP sounds stressed and maybe suffering anxiety, any change in behaviour should be investigated, I don't think it's something to 'hate' the dog for. My sibe started getting into fights with my chi when he was about 2 years old (chi always started it though the bugger) I don't hate either of them for it I just recognized that the dynamics of their relationship had changed and that they could no longer be together unsupervised, it wasn't the end of the world and it is manageable. If this dog is going to attack your dogs just keep them separated when you visit, a little inconvenient maybe but surely it's better than growing to hate this dog that you previously loved?

If she hasn't already get her (and anyone else who needs horsey help) to join cyberhorse forums there are a great bunch of people there looking to donate directly to the people who have been affected.

I must have a split personality then I love my chi and I love my sibe I couldn't imagine life without either of these breeds even though they are a PITA to manage together (at least in my experience). I suppose I'm a bit shallow I tend to like dogs that I think are cute or pretty and just incorporate their breed traits into my life My must own one day list includes a dally and a white shepherd. I never really thought about matching a breed with my lifestyle although when I got my sibe I had the vague thought that because he's a bigger dog he would be able to come with me when I go out riding the horse which of course is completely impossible but at the time I didn't know much about sibes :D

I thought I read somewhere that NZ did have laws that included pets as part of the evacuation plan?

While I don't know what my dog would do with a small dog if he was out and unrestrained I do know categorically without a shadow of a doubt that if he were out and saw a cat he would absolutely try to kill it and quite probably succeed. Now cats have every right to be out and about (whether you agree or not) but even if it were on a lead it would not stop him one little bit. This is his instinct he was around cats as a pup and one day one ran in front of him and triggered the prey drive and now it's fully 'activated' so to speak. Now I am aware of this and my dog is contained as best I can so the risk of him killing someones pet is minimal. If the huskies were let out by council and the owners were unaware of this then they posed precicley the same level of risk as my dog does. If someone were to run into the fence and my dog got out and killed someones pet he would likely be in the same situation, the difference is that most people recognise the dog v cat thing whereas they don't realize that the same issues can present within the species because we have altered their behaviour and appearance to such an extent that they don't always recognize 'dog'. Part of my study involved learning about autism and it was interesting to read Temple Grandin's books and read how she describes how she didn't know the difference between dogs and cats as a child and had to use a specific 'marker' to tell them apart, in her case she used the different types of nose to differentiate dog or cat, this might seem completely unreal to a person who can clearly see the multiple differences between dogs and cats but is a good illustration of how perceptions can vary immensely across an intelligent species like humans. Grandin has found remarkable similarities between the way an animals mind works and the way the autistic mind works, so it's not really much of a stretch to then see how the way we see things may be vastly different to the way animals see things.

I've heard on FB they are now accepting pets at the RNA - as they bloody should. It's a hell of a lot more efficient to accomodate pets in an emergency situation than it is to argue with people and physically subdue them when the floodwaters are rising. A lot of people will leave sooner if they can take their pets too so overall less work for emergency services.

I suppose mine could be considered a pet shop horror story, he had a congenital defect that required $5000 surgery to repair, along with all the associated vet bills and meds etc the cost was closer to $10k. When is a store health guarantee not a health guarantee? When it's a congenital (birth) defect.

I'm in Aubigny (near Oakey) and up high and safe, not sure about access to town/shops atm.

It's not about numbers, and ultimately it's not about the individual dogs themselves since they were placed in a situation in which their instincts/upbringing/whatever caused them to behave in this manner. I know my dog will kill cats, so I don't set him up to fail by putting him in a situation where he can get access to a cat. I know my sibe has the capacity to kill my chi if they get into a fight because he doesn't have the capacity to understand the concept of a 'fair fight' size differences etc, so I don't set him up to fail and closely supervise his interactions with my chi and watch for misunderstandings. My point is that there is always the potential for disaster and with careful management a repeat can be avoided, as others have mentioned, many dogs have the capacity to behave in unpredictable and sometimes dangerous ways when placed in an unfamiliar and highly unusual situation. Just because these dogs have killed a small dog in the past doesn't mean they will in the future and with proper management then the owners can reduce the risks to virtually zero.

Quoted for emphasis, Cosmo is spot on. It is also important for people to realize that humans are generalisers, to us 1 small dog = all small dogs, however animals do not think the same way we do, socialising must incorporate the fact that dogs have a narrower view of the world. My sibe is great friends with my chi (most of the time) because they were raised together and while he did get exposure to other dogs of various sizes as a pup I would never assume that he views all small dogs as dogs because animals do not categorize as easily as humans do.

My boy loves the clam shell pools, he will go in and lay down to cool his belly, I think if they go right in and wet their whole coat you might have a problem but mine only wets his feet and belly, just don't make it too deep. These days he just stays inside in the air con though!