DeltaCharlie

How sad Is there any chance of at least talking her out of having 2 pups at the same time? It is a lot of work to raise 2 puppies at the same time... especially active puppies! I am the sort of person that would secretly get the female desexed if the opportunity arises. Or tell her that the boy's little bits don't appear to have dropped properly and are at risk of severe complications (would require a vet to be on side with you though to support the story).

Huh??? Why would you assume a dog is deaf because it has white on it? There is also nothing genetically wrong with having a blue eye. One of the pups from our last litter has a white face and 1 blue eye and he is perfectly healthy. Plenty of dogs in the working lines that are almost all white yet they can hear perfectly fine. What a strange assumption for you to make. As for the dam having excess white, she looks like she could be s^p (genetic speak for piebald) which is also a very common colour pattern in border collies. It is frowned upon in the show ring but is a perfectly normal and healthy colour pattern, in fact you get a fair bit of s^w (extreme piebald) dogs too. The granddam of our litter is extreme piebald, once again perfectly healthy. IMO mum (and B/W pup) look to have a fair bit of working lines in them (if they are in fact pure border in the first place I guess). Definitely not show worthy. Something to note is that if she is from working lines unfortunately not many of them do any sort of genetic testing and something like CEA could go completely undetected in the dogs. Not to mention TNS and CL which are fatal (once again I think of that recent thread about Bailey). I really truly hope that you are able to talk your sister out of this purchase. There are so many things that could go wrong with these pups and the last thing the world needs is for them to also be bred down the track. The only other thing I can think of to say is that my Delta came from a very similar situation (although had been bred to work, not just for the hell of it)and her conformation has led to health problems and she has spondylosis throughout her spine as a result of breeding for ability rather than structure. There are so many people who are breeding responsibly, and I am sure would be more than happy to mentor her through the breeding process if it is something she wants to get into in the future. There is no reason to take a risk such as this

Ummm short coat (L) is actually dominant to long coat (l/l). A kelpie would presumably be L and a sheltie will always be l/l (they don't ever present in short coat). Therefore a mix of the 2 would be L/l and would appear short coated due to the dominant L gene. So yes, genetically speaking it could be a sheltie/kelpie mix (in fact the presence of coat would pretty much rule out kelpie). In saying that though, I don't really see any sheltie in there. Like others have said he could be a mix of a whole range of different breeds. My Charlie is supposed to be a kelpie/ACD mix but in all honesty if I was to play the odds (he came from a country area of Kempsey) I would go with kelpie/ACD/Border Collie/staffy mix as they are the 4 most common breeds to be randomly roaming around in the area :laugh: In all likelihood dogs in the pound are not going to come from 2 purebred dogs. Yes, it happens, but chances are the parents were mixes to begin with so you could have at least 4 breeds right there :)

I got home to find the paddocks and yard covered in snow yesterday, really wish I had been home to actually see it falling :) Instead we took the dogs out so that we could throw snowballs at them :laugh:

Are you going to be at the BDOC trial next weekend stewarding again? Tailwag and I will be there (the idiots who have entered 7 x 500 height border collies in a small trial :laugh: ) If we aren't running around like headless chooks going back and forth between rings and swapping dogs I will try and get over to have a chat with you. We just might be able to help :)

I would almost go so far as to say that the majority of regularly trialling QLDers are actually using an SG/GD style of handling. It is certainly something that they will be well and truly familiar with and I imagine would be more than willing to help you out. Chances are they have already done similar things to train their dogs. Big generalisation coming- but many people will do such a beginners course, bumble through with their dog and get addicted, then learn how to do it properly with their second dog. Its how I did it, Cody got me hooked and taught me the basics, then Delta taught me the finer details, now Whip is taking my knowledge and training further still :) When I started training Delta I knew in my mind what I wanted to do but like most clubs the focus for beginners was maintaining interest in new people and promoting participation, not on foundations. One of the trainers had a BC who was only a week younger than Delta and was going to be starting his foundations too so she actually arranged to meet me at training an hour earlier and we set up things how we wanted them to be done. Then I trained Charlie during the class time or did simple jumping drills with Delta depending on how tired she was. Perhaps that could be an option for you, if a club member who knows what you are trying to achieve is prepared to meet you, even 15-30mins earlier and do some foundation work before class begins. If the club is in no way prepared to accomodate you, find a different club :) I notice you are in Brisbane, there will be plenty around I am sure.

I could be wrong but if I understand correctly you only get to buy it for that price if a predetermined number of people agree to buy. So you won't be charged for it until it reaches that number, if it doesn't reach that number the sale becomes invalid.

Link had her first season at 14months and her seasons are 10months apart. Her daughter Rush had her first season early December last year and no signs of her coming in any time soon. Perfectly normal for them to also have 12 month cycles (or longer). Usually similar to their mothers, although Link's litter sister is every 6months so not always a guarantee :) Just be grateful she isn't a 5 monther LOL

First one just looks like a greyhound x to me, possibly all greyhound just poorly bred. Lots of things about the first dog are nothing like a sloughi, ear set is all wrong for a start. I don't know the technical names for it but a sloughi's ears usually sit flat and on the side of the head (kinda like a viszla or gsp) a greyhounds sit semi pricked and flick out like your dog's. Add to the fact that there are no sloughis in Australia so how could one end up in your backyard without you knowingly importing from a breeder overseas and therefore knowing it is a sloughi?

This is who I used for years before I moved away from the area. Even when I lived at Blacktown for a little bit I used to still go back there. Kate is a wealth of knowledge on many things, and they used to titre test my dogs for me too. Depending on what you want I guess. If I lived in Sydney now I would be using Quakers Hill because I have my guys chiro'd regularly. If I didn't have performance dogs and didn't require the regular specialist attention I would stick with Coreen Ave. I have also used Penrith Vet Hospital (think that is what it is called... they are alongside the railway line)

Ours see a chiro every 6-8 weeks to keep them in tip-top shape and make sure everything is where it should be :) It is usually only minor tweaks that need adjusting, if that, but I would rather go more often than needed and have things fixed before they create a problem, than to leave it too long and have them suffer a big injury because they were compensating for something little. I will forever regret not taking Delta in when she was younger and growing, as a lot of her issues now could have likely been prevented if she had been looked after during the growing stage of her life, instead of growing all out of whack. She was 2 and a half before I started taking her to the specialists and by then she was already in bad shape. Regular treatments have improved her immensely, in fact we didn't even know if she would still be trialling now when we first started them. She is now better than ever and fingers crossed not looking at retirement anytime soon. Some of ours a better than others at looking after themselves :) The 2 retired terriers are only seen once a year, out of the trialling dogs Charlie doesn't need to be seen as often as he doesn't exert as much effort, has a better sense of self preservation, and is built pretty soundly. Whip probably needs to be seen more often as he is an idiot, he has no idea about looking after himself and possesses no brakes so is forever running smack into things... Our older agility dogs (10 and 8), Delta (only 5 but has spondylosis) plus a retired terrier who had patella surgery are all on joint supplements. We also have a great physio in Canberra that we occassionally take the dogs too, just for a once over and to detect any muscular issues that may be missed by a chiro. I also know of people who use acupuncture on their dogs for existing issues.

Sge started beginner agility when I first started with Cody. She was a reasonably drivey dog from memory but both of us were young and new to dog sports so didn't really know what we were doing or how to capitalise on the drive of our dogs (or even what drive was at the time :laugh:) I just remember she wasn't an overly pleasant dog and had to be muzzled, but this was a club who insisted on muzzles for the most minor of reasons so couldn't tell you if it was warranted or not.

He looks very similar to a known Kelpie/Sib Husky mix I used to train with. I can definitely see the kelpie... could be a mix of many different breeds though. New family member?

The other difference I guess (and not saying anything about the impact of joints etc) is that a working pup who runs alongside the horse all day, who then grows up to work all day in the field, will spend its entire life being incredibly active. So there is a reasonable expectation that they will be doing a lot of exercise each day of their life. They are not just suddenly expected to settle in a house once they mature, without being taught how to. The more we do with a dog, the more they expect to do. I know with our BCs if we have a few days in a row of training or walks etc then they start to expect it by the 3rd day. Even the older ones. It then takes a few days before they accept the fact that we are being lazy again :laugh: We have 9 dogs, 6 of them are border collies plus Charlie who is a cattle dog x. Their combined exercise each WEEK would not even total what your pup is doing every DAY. It is one of the most common myths around about the breed, that they need to be kept incredibly active. Sure, they need exercise, but so does every other breed of dog. The more you do, the fitter they become, and the more they expect. Our pups are crated at night with a nylabone or empty kong to chew on if they wake up and get bored. During the day they are in a 2.5m x 2.5m dog run, usually with an adult dog for company and lots of toys for them to entertain themselves with. When we get home they get to do a little bit of training or free running in the yard to get the bugs out, but no more than 5-10mins. As many of the adults are crated during the day they get to have free range in the house of an afternoon and the puppies go into crates or pens with different toys or a kong. They just entertain themselves in an environment where they can't get into trouble. After everyone has dinner the puppies get to come out into the lounge room with us where they learn to stay settled and quiet, and develop their off-switch. Then its back into the night time crate for sleeping. This is not just for baby puppies either. Whip turned 2 the other day and Rush is 19months old, yet they still follow a similar routine. Only difference is that they are sometimes put in a pen together of an afternoon so that they can play, rather than having to entertain themselves. Both pups have learnt how to do that, so it doesn't need to be practised so much any more. We generally have a rule (depending on the dog) that they are crated at night until at least the age of 2 so that they aren't getting up to mischief or annoying the other dogs (and us). Link is nearly 5 and still crated at night (although that has more to do with pack dynamics etc as she has a beautiful off-switch and settles nicely) Whip will probably be crated his entire life :laugh: Rush still consumes everything in sight so won't be trusted in the house unsupervised until she grows out of that, she is getting there though. I am another one who would never dream of giving a growing dog joint supplements. Their bones are still developing and supplements can throw off the balance of calcium etc in their joints and bones which can actually affect the way they grow and cause them to develop problems later in life. Many of the joint support companies (and I thought Joint Guard was one of them as I use it on Delta) actually state somewhere that it should not ever be used on dogs under the age of 18months.

Because they enjoy the taste?

So sad to hear of this news I have been checking in regularly hoping against hope that it wasn't TNS and was in fact just some weird puppy illness making him unwell. I really hope that this event hasn't turned you off this beautiful breed and that when the time is right you will find a wonderful, healthy puppy from a reputable breeder who tests for disease and soundness. I also really hope that this has been a huge lesson for the "breeder" and that they will now think twice before just breeding for the sake of breeding. If this terrible event helps in any way to prevent another dog being born with this disease then Bailey's death will not have been in vain. Run free little man, I hope you are having fun playing to your heart's content over the bridge, free from your pain and suffering

I think it depends on the dog. I had a 11month old foster ACD once that was so bad in the kennels he had chewed off the end of his tail. I took him into foster care to see what could be done for him away from the high stress environment. He was put in a collar to allow his tail to mend, and I would immediately redirect him whenever I saw him start to spin, although he would often spin 7 or 8 times before the redirection was effective. Within a few days he had stopped the constant spinning all day long, but would still do it in his excitement of first seeing me in the morning or after work. I suspect that he will never completely stop, but his new owners were aware of it and could handle it only happening in those high excitement times, knowing they could return him to me at any time if it was too much. That was years ago now and as far as I know he is living a relatively normal life. That dog needed a stress release and spinning was his way of coping with stressful things in life. Yes, with lots of redirection early on he may not have developed the issue... but in all likelihood he would have developed a behaviour equally as neurotic. If they are going to have a problem, they will have it regardless. I don't believe that someone allowing them to play with their tail is what causes the behaviour... its the symptom of something bigger going on with them. Delta loves her appendages, I swear they were only put on her body for her entertainment :laugh: If she is bored and has nothing to play with, she will play with herself. Usually this involves lying very still, then doing this huge twitch/jerk/convulsion type thing and trying to catch her tail as it flies towards her mouth It is the absolute funniest thing I have ever seen a dog do... and she will repeat it a few times and look at us in between each one with this big grin on her face. Sometimes she tries to catch her leg instead and will do funny rolly-polly things in the process. It is not a behaviour that is ever going to escalate any further, it is not a symptom of anything worse, it is just her way of keeping herself amused when she is bored :laugh:

Delta would only ever work for food when I was doing all her foundation work so I had a treat pouch with a tug attached. That way I could throw it, strategically place it, wave it around like a tug to recall her if need be, or just use it as treat storage. Whenever she saw her treat pouch she would run over and lie down in front of it, waiting for it to be opened and then she was allowed to shove her nose in to get the treats out (I used to just put in enough for that drill, then restock it). That way the reward was well and truly coming from the pouch so she never came into me as I wasn't good for anything except opening said pouch :laugh: I also used a manners minder (remote controlled treat dispenser) for training her weaves as it beeps when releasing a treat so acted like a clicker and took me completely out of the picture, but they aren't cheap. Sounds like he could also benefit from some "dead toy" work. We always teach our puppies that a toy is just as much fun when just lying there as it is when it is moving (live). That can be done away from the equipment, just build a lot of value into sending him to his tug (not thrown, just lying there) and then have big games with him. If he really won't send at first then you could throw it the first few times, but wait till it has been lying there for a few seconds before you release him to get it. Or you could try racing him to the toy, if you get there first do a little happy dance with the toy but don't let him have it. Just hold him and throw it again, then race him to it. Before long he will start racing to it so that he can get there before you :)

When I first started agility at PICSI there was a guy there with Lowchens. I know he was heavily involved in ADAC agility at the time (this would have been 5 years ago) but no idea if he ever did ANKC agility. I think his name may have been Peter?

She moved to a town 200kms from Esperance and stayed around 6 to 8 months then has moved back east again. This sounds like me? :laugh: LOL pretty sure it was :) I knew it was someone with Tollers but its been years so wasn't 100% sure therefore didn't want to name names :laugh: I think I was living in Sydney at the time and was possibly with Norwest (Ive clubhopped a bit for various reasons) and they were working out gear etc to take over for a seminar they were trying to organise. Then there were a few who were going to come over with us for the Agility Nationals in 2010 and do some flyball then too but it didn't happen either.

I didn't go looking for the posts so haven't quoted them, but to the people in WA the AFA have tried to organise seminars for at least the last 4 years, possibly longer, to try and get the sport up and running over there but nobody has taken up the offer. There was a DOLer who had trained dogs already (I think she had previously lived in SA or Vic) and had since moved to Esperance who was prepared to get involved too and was prepared to travel to Perth to get the sport running but there just wasn't enough interest. Lots of talk, but nobody really keen enough when push came to shove. Perhaps now is the time to revisit it? There would be plenty of people happy to help out if need be.

Perhaps that is what they are trying to help you with and you have misunderstood what they were getting at? They may have noticed your arm dropping or moving excessively and saw the effect that was having on her jumping style. When I was training my first dog I was told to keep my arm out as it made a much clearer signal for him, without me focussing on keeping it up I flapped it all over the place and confused the crap out of him :laugh: It wasn't that he needed it to be up, it was that I needed somewhere to have it. I still have a tendency to flap on course, or try to send my dog to the moon when I want them to get out :laugh: but I am so much better than I was back then!

The AFA is a very hardworking, dedicated committee who have been falling over themselves trying to make this partnership work. Every time the ANKC has had questions the AFA have immediately provided them with the answers. I suspect that the ANKC never really cared enough to make it work in the first place, so they kept throwing issues at the AFA, who continually provided solutions in response, and now the ANKC have simply pulled the plug without actually approaching the AFA with their current concerns. The AFA would have once again had the answers (and therefore the ANKC would have been stuck with the agreement for another term) so it was easier to just pull the plug. I don't understand why really... its not like the ANKC have ever bothered to actually host a competition in all this time. So all they have had to do is sit around and take money for people's title applications.

Being a border collie person, I have never had anything to do with Earthdog stuff. But, we have an associate register terrier here who I suspect would be great at it and Id love to find out more about the sport. We live on a property and she is always looking for rabbit holes, she is just a terrier through and through LOL Her tenacity drives me nuts :laugh: I've read through the rules but want someone to put it in plain english for me :) From what I can work out, in a nutshell she would need to: - Enter the EIC class (as she is AR) where she has to go through some sort of small scented tunnel leading to a cage with something smelly in it. Then she needs to dig/scratch/bark at it for 30secs? Am I on the right track? Living near Canberra makes it hard to get up for any training days. What would be the chances of her succeeding if we were to just enter a trial without exposing her to it first? She will happily follow a trail, no matter how faint and has no fear of small spaces, especially if there is something smelly at the other end :) Would it be too much to ask of her or is it pretty instinctual once you get them in there?

I really hope that the above comment was not directed at me as I would be highly offended by the implication that I was trying to cause a debate on here. Working BCs had not even been mentioned until your post so not sure what the point is you were trying to make or what you are even trying to achieve by that comment. Yes, we have working line BCs. That is our personal preference and we are entitled to that. Just like some people prefer show lines, some prefer kelpies and some prefer great danes. Yes, we breed working line BCs. We are ANKC registered breeders and are also registered with the NSW Sheepdog Workers and Australian Working Border Collie Registry. We DNA test all our dogs for CEA, CL and TNS and we hip and elbow score all of our breeding dogs. The reason behind my disclaimer at the bottom of my post was to make it clear that I was not trying to have a go at registered breeders for not taking a chance on me when I wanted a BC as my first dog, as we now make that same decision and recognise that our dogs are not suited for pet homes. That has nothing to do with them being working vs show lines, it is to do with the fact that the lines we are using have been selectively bred for generations to be extremely high drive and as such would not make suitable pets. That is no different to a breeder of high drive working Malanois not allowing their dogs to go into a pet home. So yes, we are breeding for a very different purpose than most ANKC breeders. Not because our dogs are working lines but because they are incredibly high drive and require a fulltime job to do. If my life did not revolve around performance sports then I would not touch any of our dogs with a barge pole. As much as I love them to bits and they are exactly what we are after, they are not the dog for everyone and would no doubt send most people stark raving mad!!! As far as the actual point of this thread goes, I originally posted so that it would be easier to keep track of and remember to check. I tend to find threads I want to watch but then never remember to keep checking back, by posting then I can go back through my posts and it helps me remember the ones I found interesting. I've tried the 'watch topic' thing but never seem to get the notifications to work. I am actually really interested to hear how this young man goes, especially if it does turn out to be TNS. I don't have any experience with the disease as it is something we are very careful to avoid in our lines, but I know that it does exist in a percentage of Australian BCs. In all honesty I wouldn't know the first signs to look for so am rather interested in seeing how this thread develops. I am really hoping that it was simply a minor illness, and that being so small it has affected him more than it would have an adult. It is always so scary when our babies get sick, especially the young ones as they can go downhill so quickly. Fingers crossed that the blood tests come back normal. As you were having blood drawn anyway, are they testing for any other diseases or just TNS?