Quickasyoucan

I can't name a single DOLer who I know is a PP supporter in the true sense of the term. Most trainers I know do support the appropriate use of aversives. Where the debate rages is what is an appropriate use and what is and appropriate aversive. PF probably I should have expressed myself better, perhaps I should have said those with more positive leanings, there are certainly those on here who have pretty strong views about the use of certain aversives, but I am not sure what to call them them?? Positive leaners? Mostly positive? As I said I am not totally au fait with things but Anita for one strikes me as a person with fairly strong positive leanings. Not singling her out for anything except how she has come across in several threads. Sorry if I do have you wrong Anita. I'd not call Anita a PP trainer (she can correct me if she disagrees) but rather a "non-confrontational" one. I lean that way also. I dont' see the point in tackling some issues head on when a strategic withdrawal and a rethink on the relationship with the dog as a whole may be a lot safer and more effective. But isn't that what any good trainer would do? I am a bit confused now. Why does the use of aversives have to be seen as confrontational? I wouldn't think trainers who use a mixture of negative and positive - R, good ones, would just rush in where Angel's fear to tread and blindly pursue something that isn't even working?

I can't name a single DOLer who I know is a PP supporter in the true sense of the term. Most trainers I know do support the appropriate use of aversives. Where the debate rages is what is an appropriate use and what is and appropriate aversive. PF probably I should have expressed myself better, perhaps I should have said those with more positive leanings, there are certainly those on here who have pretty strong views about the use of certain aversives, but I am not sure what to call them them?? Positive leaners? Mostly positive? As I said I am not totally au fait with things but Anita for one strikes me as a person with fairly strong positive leanings. Not singling her out for anything except how she has come across in several threads. Sorry if I do have you wrong Anita.

I'd like to see (unedited) video footage of "red-zone" dogs being rehabilitated using only the positive methods that Ian Dunbar and others prescribe. Even for some of the not so "red-zone" dogs. I often don't or can't get answers from PP's of "what they would or might do when" (giving fairly curly situations). I've asked and the question is either skirted around or, as in one instance at a "PP seminar", was told "that's a subject for another seminar". I've been waiting for that seminar ever since (ie years). I love using positives. It makes me feel good. Sure as eggs makes me feel less "guilty" which is what I sometimes end up feeling when amongst a crowd of PP's who suggest ANYTHING else is cruel (even though I know that one or more of those people use corrections themselves when they think it is necessary). These are some of the links to video footage that have been put up .... but surely there's got to be far better, because in my opinion, these are exta-ordinary low quality and on the most basic of things .... How to Teach a Border Collie Their Name Determine If Your Dog Is Too Nervous to Train Basic Dog Training Tips - Heel (BTW the fellow in this video is wrong .... horses are traditionally worked on the handler's right; dogs on the left, but that's besides the point) If the use of aversives is cruel, wrong and so on and so forth, why wouldn't it ever NOT be important to convince us? I'd like to be convinced, because I feel nicer using positives than I do including aversives in training. But what I feel and what's best for the dog in its circumstances isn't always the same thing. Great post Erny. I asked for suggstions in the Cesar Millan thread about what PP people would do with a red zone dog, didn't get any answers any referrals to links. It's disappointing, like I said before, I love looking at new things, weighing them up. It is so easy (and disappointing) to be in opposition but not suggest anything new. People don't do themselves any favours if they just criticise, criticise and don't actually suggest an alternative. I am new to dog training beyond the basic (a slow learner since my beloved dog is nearly 6 ), but I do find it disappointing that PP supporters dont seem to be able to suggest any viable alternatives to dealing with serious issues. There also seems almost to be the suggestion that those who do use aversives get some peverse enjoyment out of it. God we all love our dogs, if there was a magic "positive" wand to deal with serious ingrained issues, I am sure we would all prefer to use it, but I haven't seen or heard anything yet to support an argument. And for Ian Dunbar to suggest discussion is a waste of time, methinks someone has developed an enormous ego and stopped learning some time ago! Unless those comments are seriously out of context I won't be looking up any of his methods.

My take: Behaviourist: A person who analyses and develops methods for modifying a dog's unwanted behaviour. Trainer: A person who teaches dogs (and/or handlers) cued behaviours. Clearly cued behaviours can be used for modifying unwanted behaviour but the two hats don't always overlap. Whether or not a person should hold qualifications or be accredited is a whole different argument IMO. For me if I had a serious or complicated problem I would want to see a behaviourist. If I wanted to learn a particular method of training my puppy and have a formal program to do that, I might go to a trainer, I might also go to a trainer for basic things like loose lead walking, etc. I would think one might also see a trainer if one wanted to learn to do agility/obedience to a high level to refine a methodology, then again maybe I am wrong. Luckily for us a few of our specialists here wear both hats But I agree with PF, I don't believe the two always overlap. ETA: even if the discussions do sometimes cover old ground, I always find I get something new out of them. I have learned heaps by dipping into the training forum. The only thing that does annoy me sometimes is when personal grudges start being aired which does sometimes occur.

We had welsh springer spaniels growing up. They were great dogs to grow up with, don't know about the training bit though cos unfortunately that was few and far between. Dad's idea of training was its okay so long as the dog comes back when you call it. I have memories of sharp puppy teeth clinging to my flares (we had one litter from our first bitch) and of being pulled around the block by 2 very keen bitches. They probably were full on but we were kids so, so were we. My Dad still has a welshie, he is 74 and is on no medication whatsoever (my dad not the dog ) as Georgie has 2-3 long walks in nearby woodland per day. Dad is probably fitter than I am. This is in the UK so no fear of snakes. I have to say I do have a soft spot for gundogs and I would never confuse exhuberance with untrainability (sorry probably not a word), my only problem with labradors is that they are taken on by too many people who think it is acceptable to stick them in the back yard with no training and no exercise oh and to feed them too much. Oh and those people who are buying chocolate labs because it is the latest fad. As per usual it is people who are the problem there. I saw some working labs on TV the other day, they were muscly and obedience - gorgeous.

Golly, I see dogs every time I am out in the public. Most pet owners prefer them, or complain when their dogs cause "problems", such as garden damage, dirt tracks caused by the dogs running around the fenced yards, chewing, digging etc. Working dogs need a job/outlet. Yeah but I always wonder if they really have no drive or whether it just hasn't been explored with them. I was thinking more about dogs people had worked (or tried to) in drive. Sort of wondering on a more philosophical level what might then motivate them?? Sorry not trying to hijack the thread, just interested.

Are you suggesting/thinking that whatever it might be coated with has caused Henschke's behaviour? How old is Henschke? (I know you've said in other posts but I can't recall.) You might find that it is age related and where he might be 'testing' boundaries. We work through these behaviours as pups and think they are 'gone'. But if you look closely enough as they approach those 'teenage' equivalent months, you'll often find them pushing (sometimes even just obscurely) and if you aren't consistent with your vigilance as you were when they are pups, the behaviour can pop right back in. Also, I believe they go through a secondary teething stage, like as if the teeth are 'settling' in. And that can promote the urge to chew, tear and rip. He's 8 months as of yesterday. I am aware of the secondary teething stage (learnt that from DOL) and it certainly was bang on the head when Henschke started chewing on walls as he had nothing to chew on, so we started giving him beef hides. The one we gave him yesterday was not the normal hide we'd previously given. We have not come home to a house like that since he was 7 months old - as soon as we did, it was recognised for what it was, gave him the hide to chew and the place has been free of 'mess' since that one day. Considering the beef hide was new and we ended up with a house like that, we naturally placed the issue back on the hide. So yes, we are thinking that whatever it's coated with might have contributed to his behaviour. The last time he was like this (beside being a typical puppy), I had given him goodo and he went manic. I should also mention that when I arrived home he was not his normal calm self, he was pretty manic... I have stopped giving rawhide chews as most of them are made from imported products from places like China and Thailand even if it says made in Australia if you read the fine print it says from imported products. There is a thread on rawhide I started a while back. It is frustrating though as there is nothing really similar and Jake really doesn't like big bones and generally vomits if he does eat them, chicken necks or tips are crunched up in 2 seconds. I am still searching for a healthy alternative that you can really chew. That said, Jake who is nearly 6 (years old and not months!) and hasn't chewed anything for nigh on 5 years, chewed up a table decoration of wire and glass beads last night while I was on the phone, attention seeking, but totally out of character. I was so worried that he might have swallowed some wire or a glass bead, but that is another story and he is looking pretty chirpy today. Sometimes I wonder if they just have a brain snap ETA: maybe it had a lot of sugar in it, and Henschke had a fit of the destructive zoomies.

I know this is off topic but, understanding that drive is genetic, and that dog's can have varying degrees of it, is there such a thing a a dog with negligable or no drive, if so what actually motivates it to do things in life?? I don't have any experience of low drive dogs to really understand that concept. Or would be it such that every dog would have some degree of drive in some form?

PF I think it was K9 that mentioned her it was in one of his posts, it jogged something in my memory. "K9: Contact Jane Harper, [email protected] she is very good."

Ah the joys of working dogs.. they'd run into the ground if you let them. Yeah Jake has a hint of kelpie in amongst the SBT and would run and run till he fell down, till his nose was red raw all for the love of the ball. I'd get home from a massive walk and he'd be like, now who is up for a game of football I should add I have now discovered he has mild HD, whether or not he was born with that or whether it is from ball chasing I will never know. He has never really shown any signs of lameness (bar his sookiness about bindies) or pain, I discovered it coincidentally through x-rays but it certainly has made me think twice about the way I exercise him.

Don't forget the impact on teeth too. Jake's canine's are very worn from tennis balls, I regret letting him play so much when he was younger. We now restrict the ball and have incorporated a rubber ball it into our drive training, it is put away when I get home. I very very rarely use the ball thrower any more and given that I throw like the biggest girl's blouse when it is just me he no longer charges long distances. I like to do things like sit and stay then recall and then throw the ball a short distance away. Or make Jake wait while I roll the ball away and then retrieve. As he loves the ball so much I have tried to achieve some sort of balance. Jake also likes to play with a football, but given that he is prone to bouts of such intense dribbling (with the ball) that he rubs his nose raw, that has to be restricted too! I am proud to say he once bounced the ball 7 times off his nose without touching the ground tho promting my neighbours 5 year old to say "he's just like a seal"

I have friends with a 20 month old rottie who is exactly the same. She has a 13 month old labrador "brother" who is Mr Dog Social, same upbringing but obviously different nerves. She has been fearful and timid with other dogs since a pup. She is has now got to the stage where she will sometimes charge dogs, usually those her brother is playing with. They have referred through family to Steve Austin and have already been advised verbally that this needs to be dealt with as it could escalate to full blown fear aggression.

From what I understand of his daily life...he IS!!!! sorry twice daily walks at least... training sessions everyday...at present he has nothing with which to satisfy his need for work he is an indulged teenager!!!..and needs exercise and discipline in large doses... affection doled out for good things/behaviour..., so he regains some balance.... :D Have to second this, you need to be stimulating him mentally as well, field spaniels were bred to work, use their brain, not just run around. I see from your thread in general that you are thinking of getting another field spaniel, wouldn't it be worth while getting some one on one advice from a trainer to sort this out before you take on another otherwise you may find you have one on each calf! Better than trying hundreds of different methods and failing. Having had it explained to me that exercise needs to be mental as much as physical for active breeds, I upped my training practice, and found that this tired Jake out 10 times more than chasing endlessly after a ball. He is also more responsive and, just little things that have happened, make me see that my leadership status has increased too. He still gets heaps of affection btw but he gets the other things too! We had a litter of 6 welsh springer spaniel pups when I was young, and it was the time of flares, I still have memories of all 6 baby puppies hangin off my flares!!! so I do feel your pain.

That's great Shell, I remember meeting you and Zero at the Dog Aggression Workshop and Steve said you had already come an amazingly long way. Sound like you have now gone even further

Thanks guys will give it a go

Yep except I didn't really teach him to fetch the ball in the first place, he already did it when I got him, and he hasn't got any interest in any other item. Obviously the ball is a prey item to him, but I can't get him to make the connection about picking up another item, that's where my difficulty lies.

Can someone point me in the right direction as to how to teach a dog to fetch items other than the ball. My dog is ball obssessed, and will retrieve any ball big or small perfectly. However he has no interest in frisbees or anything else that is thrown. In any case what I am actually interested in is teaching him to fetch items for me that are not thrown, such as his lead, my shoes, etc on command, I am just not sure how to go about it. He won't pick anything else up, so I don't see how I get him to fetch them. Actually, thinking about it, he will play tug with a rope toy too but since I don't want him to fetch and damage items I presume that is not the way to go to make things interesting? I know this is a very basic question training but any links/thoughts would be much appreciated, we are trying to learn new things :p I would also like to teach him basic scenting. He will seek out the ball blind if I hide it using his nose, but nothing else, again no interest in other items.

I have been thinking about this a lot and the fact that people think they are depriving their dogs by not allowing them to socialise with strangers. What about the negative side of things, I own an SBT cross, as people who own breeds that are not perceived as warm and fuzzy know, you get a different reaction from a not insignificant part of the population. What about the dog that thinks strangers are great, very politely goes up to them only to have the person scream at them, run away, cross the road, pick their child up? That can't be a great experience for the dog? Or what about the lab at the park this morning (sorry nothing against labs just seem to meet lots of manic ones), who bounced up to me first stole the ball out of my hand ran away and then came back and ripped a full poo bag out of my hand and ate it (I am seriously not making this stuff up). Now that dog obviously views strangers as a total source of reward, and probably puts them on a value of 10+. He is intensely annoying to strangers (he has scratched the xxxx out of my legs on more than one occasion), he is now annoying event to his idiot owner (even though it is her fault) even though she says I only bring him here to socialise him. Now for someone to get him under control would have to "convince" this dog that what he thinks is great is no longer allowed (that's not going to be pleasant for the dog). Would have been so much easier if he didn't have such a high value for it in the first place? Besides I don't think we are talking about strict value of 0 here.

I agree, but I am sure not all dogs are as well trained as yours Cosmolo! And I do meet quite a lot of over friendly dogs around the traps (I have the scratches on my legs to prove it!) certainly around my way. I guess I came across as over generalising but if you have a dog that assigns a high value to people then you have to do the training to ensure that they are controlled when the situation is appropriate. If a dog does not have a high value to people, I would have thought you would be less likely to have to use that control in the first place. I don't know the answer and certainly I am no expert but it just seems to make sense to me. I suppose there are many ways to skin a cat! (sorry for the analogy)

Something that comes into my mind about the value of neutralisation time and time again is when you look at it in the wider context of the ever increasing limitations placed on dog ownership. When I first came to Australia I was surprised at the restrictions on where you could have your dog off lead, where they were allowed and where they weren't. Maybe things have changed in the UK now but things were certainly a lot less restrictive over there when I left and they are certainly less restrictive (setting aside BSL which I know is in both the UK and Europe). Really do you want a dog that assigns a value of +8 to strangers and tears up to them, or worse jumps up at them. Do you want to run the risk that person is litigious or reports you to council on the basis that your dog is "dangerous" remembering the "dangerous" in accordance with the law (certainly here in NSW) does not necessarily have to involve inflicting any harm. For me I would rather my dog didn't have an interest in interacting with strangers at all, sad but true, I don't want to run the risk of coming across an anti-dog loony who wants to rid the world of dogs and uses any sort of perceived bad behaviour as an excuse. I may sound paranoid but look what has happened in the States, where off leash dog parks are few and far between. PS. I was subject to a stealth mounting by a very overweight labrador at the dog beach this morning, according to his owner he "just gets so excited when he sees strangers he has to jump up at them, but he is not vicious or anything". Now I didn't really care (apart from being covered in sand), but imagine if I didn't like dogs or was scared of them, this was probably a 40kg plus dog gripping my thighs!, I could have caused some issues for that owner. ETA I don't think you can compare hares to dogs. Just as you wouldn't compare cats to dogs, different species, different cognitive abilities.

K9: If you have a dog with weak nerves you will have to be very careful or you will mess it up, whether you neutralise or not. I would have thought it would be a good thing to actively seek to neutralise a dog with weak nerves actually rather than trying to "socialise it" as the inexperienced might. Better to get it to assign a neutral value than risk flooding it negatively by what is commonly perceived as "socialisation". For example take a weak nerved pup to the park, give it a couple of bad uncontrolled experiences and surely you would be in for a whole heap of trouble. Just my uneducated opinion. K9: as I mentioned before, Jake seems to now naturally to have assigned a relatively low value to strangers, as he has got older (which I am really happy about, suits our lifestyle well), if say a dog is at a stage where they will stand and accept a pat from a stranger but not actively seek them out does that qualify as being neutralised? I guess if I had to assign a value for him it would be around a 1 or a 2, but no more. Would you expect more from a working dog than from a pet?

Lilypily, I'm certainly no trainer but here is my 20 cents worth, from a SBT cross owner! Firstly, congratulations on getting a six month old bull breed cross to walk well on the lead, drop and sit! You have succeeded where many others have failed. ;) (including me, Jake is my first SBT). If I had a dollar for every staffy I see around here pulling their owner around I would be a rich woman. No it is not a totally breed specific thing, but you do see it a lot round my way! You sound like you are doing well on that front. Second thing that occurs to me is that, you say that you have only owned small breed dogs before. Could it be that with previous dogs they have been allowed to get away with things, jumping, mouthing up etc, that you are now more aware of because you have a bigger (though not large!) dog? Just thinking that maybe you need to alter your leadership styles with all your dogs, not criticising, but wondering? As people have said, bull breeds generally have a lot of drive, but they are not necessarily built for endless speed and stamina, they build muscletone easily but they are not lean and wiry like say a kelpie. Already your boy has shown he has a brain, keep using that energy and brain to teach him new tricks, that will tire him out more than endless ball throwing and as they get older the kids will love showing their friends how he can play dead, drop etc. My boy is a ball nut, has worn his canines down and is obssessed, but 15 minutes of drive training (still using the ball but in a different way) tires him out way more than 30 or more mins of simple throwing. Do a search of training in drive on this forum and it will give you an idea. Have you looked at reinforcing your leadership through NILIF. Here is one link, but if you google it you will see it appears many times in training articles (I hope its okay to post a link?). http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=nilif.html Sounds like you are doing well anyway so keep on moving in a positive direction

Several of people here are posting about how they have trained their dogs from pups using the "longer route" and avoiding what is perceived to be the "easy way". However, what about looking at it from the point of view of an owner who already has a dog with entrenched bad habits? What if you acquire a dog at say age 2 who is already an experienced leash puller for example. Surely what would be best for the dog and the owner is the method that will work the best and the quickest to resolve that issue? It is stressful for the owner and potentially harmful for the dog to be practically choking itself on every walk, why would you want to prolong that, if there are methods available that can give you the self-confidence and the power to fix that problem as quickly and efficiently as possible. If this method involves correction, so be it, for me as a dog owner, I would want to find a balance between resolving the issue as quickly as possible, obviously without unduly stressing the dog, but taking into account the frustrating and potential stress on both owner and dog that could be caused by the problem persisting. I don't think the easiest route has to be the laziest, it is sad that it should be perceived as such. My dog used to pull on the lead and did so from the moment I got him at around 10 months, I admit to moments of total frustration and anger, and our walking relationship was not really a happy one. Now with judicious use of both correction and praise walks are a pleasure for BOTH of us and our bond is stronger. It's sad that anyone would say I have taken the easy way out and imply that I couldn't really love my dog if I have "punished it". PS I drive a car without power steering, I could say that all you people who have power steering can't really feel the car or the turns, so you are taking the "easy way out". No doubt I would be laughed at.

I find this topic very interesting. I haven't actively attempted to neutralise my dog to either dogs or humans but as he has grown older (I got him around 10 months he is now 5.5 years), it seems to have happened to a degree naturally. When I first got him, being a staffy x everybody was a friend, everbody had a high positive value for him and he was basically a massive attention seeking wiggle bum :rolleyes: . But gradually, as he is out with me in all situations where a dog is permitted, he seems to have "neutralised" himself to a certain degree. Because of certain people's reactions to him, if they have ignored him or moved actively to avoid him, I would now say that strangers hold very little value to him. If someone does ask to pat him or ask whether their child can pat him, he stands there and politely waits for them to do it but I don't get the feeling that it hold a huge value for him. If I stop to talk to someone he would not actively seek to engage with them. In some ways, as someone has also said, where children are involved I find this a bonus because if kids to ask to pat him, particularly nervous ones, I think it gives them confidence if the dog just calmly stands there and allows it. I am not saying he doesn't enjoy it a little but if I had to give it a value I would say a plus one or at most a plus 2. Having said that, there are a few people in his inner circle, who he has known since I got him who obviously still hold high value for him which I why I put neutralise in inverted commas above, as I am not sure if it counts strictly as neutralisation. With other dogs too, he generally ignores them, but that is mainly because the ball is the centre of his universe Edited for bad grammar!

I have to second what Rommimum says, but also to say this, I read the first part of his book and found myself nodding my head, towards the end my head was shaking, however, that doesn't mean I am going to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I think that as has already been said, anything that provokes healthy discussion is great, besides, I don't think one has to adopt every theory that is proposed by a particular person, isn't it possible to agree with parts and disagree with some others? The book was certainly thought provoking. I would be interested if he does come to Australia even if I don't agree with everything in his book as they say in France, Vive La Difference!! Thanks Kelpie-i for putting this thread up.