Quickasyoucan

I fully agree with this. My staffy x rescue is home alone and has been for night on 6 years. However I get up at 6 am every weekday rain, hail or shine and give him 45 minutes of exercise. He is walked by a neighbour for an hour in the arvo and I am around 99.9999% of evenings which involve either a short walk, a game of footy or a bit of basic training. If I am home, he is with me inside or outside wherever I am. I don't consider him to be missing out, in fact when I have had other dogs to stay he tends to sulk. And he doesnt have separation anxiety or get upset when I leave, probably because he is under his blanket on my bed and glad to get his head down after his mornings exercise and breakfast! It probably depends on the individual dog too, a lot of SBT's I have met are more into people than they are into other dogs in that I mean if you offered them the choice of running up to a human for one on one attention or running up to another dog a fair few would choose the human in fact a few think they are human I think!

When a friend's rotty had what looked like pus coming out of his penis I think the vet told my friends that was normal, but don't quote me. I am sure someone will have be able to confirm.

Is there an issue with dogs being timid in some lines or is it just some individual dogs are naturally more shy than others? I am also trying to get my head round size never having met one in the flesh, anyone got a pic say with a more common breed of dog like a lab (pointeeblab?) or BC or similar. Is there a significant difference between bitches and dogs. Also anyone got any other nice pics of solids, I know it is really terribly shallow but I love the solids!

How come PF always puts it so well. I have come to see how important timing is and the deafness that arises when your dog is in full drive of any sort (unless of course you have mastered the 100% recall! ).

I thought I read somewhere that they were generally a healthy breed but did suffer from corns on their feet or something similar? Is the dog aggression something that can be present in any lines of the breed or are some more prone towards aggression than others ie just individual dog dependent? Is it seen as being potentially part and parcel of the breed as with the SBT/AST and indeed lots of other breeds ie something that can occur or is it something that breeders are concerned to try and breed out?

Jake has been on EP holistic for a couple of years now. His coat is much better than when he was on eukanuba and no itching. I like the duck best for him, he seems best on it. Some people says it can make dogs' coats greasy but because Jake's was a bit flakey and dry before it probably balances him out.

What if the dog cares more about a self rewarding behaviour than any positive reinforcement you could offer? Exactly, with Jake and his skateboard obssession you could waive a ball in front of his face which I believe is close to his favourite thing in the world and that would not distract him. Sometimes, for example, a certain trigger has become so hard wired into a dogs brain that all the temptations in the world will not distract them. I think timing is crucial too, if you get in at the right time your interruptor or whatever does not need to be forceful, leave it too late and it really is too late for everything. Corvus when you say dogs didn't come into the world knowing ah ha I don't think that is necessarily true, true in that they don't understand the word, but the energy and the tone in which you convey it would I believe be understood by the vast majority of dogs, same thing with very young children. It is almost instinctual. You could use another word, but it would still be understood.

Ooh, now I'm going to go completely off topic. Were you in the UK? It's not too uncommon there I understand because travellers and other fringe breeders breed longdogs for lamping and typically use saluki/greyhound crosses. The book "Walking Ollie" is about a saluki/greyhound cross rescue. And yeah, the writer also does not pick up poo!!! This is the author's blog where he has pictures of his dogs, the grey grizzle is a pure smooth Saluki: http://walkingollie.wordpress.com/ Sadly Ollie died last year, don't read the entry about that without a full box of tissues. It looks like he has a gorgeous new rescue lurcher tho'. /off topic Sorry off topic but indulge us :D Yes I am in South East England. I met the lady with the dog again today. He is a rescue and the reason I found out about the smooth saluki bit was I was bemused by the dog's size too big to be a whippet but really too small to be a grey unless it was a v small one. She said saluki breeders can tell immediately because of the dogs ears. Apparently she entered her dog in a fun type country fair dog show recently and the judge happened to be a saluki breeder who told her all about correct weight etc and said she had a very nice dog, albeit a cross. I watched the dog do zoomies round a field today just because he could, very very fast and very impressive. I also met a rescue Lurcher as well, seems they crop up in rescue quite often. The saluki cross was beautiful to watch in motion. :D

Yeah unfortunately the Brits are still not good on the picking up poo front but that's very very off topic :D

Makes sense. Yes - I see the point here as well. No matter how much one might worry about who will apply what and how though, shouldn't mean that a whole "methodology" should be out-lawed when in itself it may prove for some dogs to be the one thing that keeps them safe (as well as other people safe) from harm. I agree with this, I think where the friction often comes in is people's differing judgements about the extent to which harder techniques should be used on softer and/or younger dogs and softer techniques on older and/or harder dogs. Bearing in mind that hard and soft is also debatable ground. That said, I think people sometimes don't have the background to make a judgment and are assessing the technique against a wrong impression of the dog (or against "everydog" or against the profile of the dogs they see most often or their own baggage, etc etc etc). When you poke beneath the surface you often find more agreement than disagreement. I can't think of anyone here who has said a check chain on a 10 week old is a good idea for example. The tricky part is that the limitations to an application aren't always readily apparent to a casual observer. Which is where I think good non-personal debate like this is of value, after all there are more than a few people who lurk on these forums but don't necessarily post. Even if one person gets something out of it is is of value, but if they visit and just see people slagging each other off they probably wouldn't take it seriously. I have already learned a lot by just reading what is put here, you don't follow it by the book but you weigh up the pros and cons of aspects for yourself and, if necessary, get professional assistance. Hey 20 years ago in the UK check chains were the norm, I am pretty sure we would have used them on our young dogs, (not necessarily at 10 weeks as they weren't out walking then) but young dogs. But things have moved on and people become more aware. And good discussion is part of the education process. :D I am also of the "camp" that would even go to see something I think I disagree with just to make sure my disagreement was founded. I am not talking dangerous, extreme or hurtful or illegal things here but methods that I might not necessarily think would work. I prefer to be proven wrong than just take things on face value. ETA: Anita I met a lady in the woods with a rescue today who was a cross with a short coated Saluki. Didn't realise they existed. So learned something new :D

I think I am a bit in the embrace them all camp too, in that I think if you are too narrow minded about things then you might miss out finding out what is right for your dog. I also confess to watching anything that has dogs in it cringe worthy (like Its me or the Dog) or otherwise. I have to admit to finding a great deal of similarity in messages even though the outward philosophy or terminology might seem different. And I find that oddly comforting as it means (hopefully) that we are on the right track. I don't think you have to like everything a behaviourist or trainer does either to like or admire them. After all I am sure people who are married don't like every aspect of their partner's temperament or indeed that of their kids. My dog snores, doesn't mean I don't still love him I think maybe why people defend CM is because they admire, as Steve mentioned, that he is instinctual and he does genuinely care about the dogs and rehabilitating dogs that others view as beyond redemption. And cos he is on TV, maybe if Erny or Steve were on TV we might feel inspired to criticise or defend them more ETA: I am also a great believer in experiencing something before I criticise it. I admit to apprehension about the PP collar before I put it on my own arm and around my own neck :D and tugged. A lot better than being choked with a check chain believe me. It gave me comfort that this was okay to use on my own dog and the fact that when it is on the corrections needed are only slight and few if any added to that comfort. I don't have any e-collar experience but if I were to consider I needed it I would use the same approach. That same approach also led me to bin the halti after seeing the distress of my dog when it was prescribed years ago at dog training. He hated it and it mysteriously disappeared from the car. I still to this day think that maybe he chucked it out whilst I wasn't looking

I implied no such thing, I can't stop you inferring a criticism from it but I am disappointed that you have. I was talking about my breed and where I find success with my dogs and my standards for myself. I don't see how that translates to a comment on what every one else is doing, particularly as I have a breed that is super easy to shut down. My primary issue with any correction is the same issue Karen Pryor emphasises in her recent book - that is that it is reinforcing to the deliverer as well as the recipient. In addition to my considerations about my dogs and what they respond best to, I choose to avoid physical correction for my own personal reasons. I will use correction where necessary to avoid a greater evil or, when it comes to voice correction, on the occasions where I am not the trainer I could be and haven't thought about it before opening my mouth. Being an imperfect human and all. I go out of my way not to judge other DOLers and it aggravates me that even talking about my own standards and my own experience with my dogs, and not mentioning anyone else, can be read as an implied judgment. I have stayed right out of the slanging match in this thread about other people's dogs. Should I say nothing about what I do with my dogs in case people who use physical corrections might feel slighted that I choose to avoid them? What's next, I shouldn't say I walk them on a flat collar in case prong people feel slighted? Good lord, I am really not that important. To me this is just another way of shutting the more positive people down. If you have confidence in your methods, what I say about what I choose for my dogs shouldn't concern you at all. I think that's a fair post but I think the problem some people have with corvus' posts is that she is not saying that, she is trying to extrapolate her own experience to warn people off what she sees as suffering the same consequences as she did with her one single dog. CM himself says in his book (thought I am not suggesting he made this quote up) "two dog trainers can't seem to agree on anything except the fact that a third dog trainer is completely wrong". Everyone is entield to their own beliefs IMO, I am not going to suggest what you are doing is wrong if it works for you, but to suggest that people might be infinitely damaging their relationship with their dog by doing something (when the person suggesting it has only had experience with their own dog) is wrong. I also don't agree with the constant comparison with dogs to wild animals. After all they are not wild animals, they share some special features that other animals do not have due to their long road of domestication to humans. No I don't consider my dog a human but he is not a wild animal either and I won't treat him as such. Like I have already said, I have used physical corrections on my own dog as he had some issues and my relationship with him is 100% better. Is he fearful, no, is he more attentive and in Cesar's own terminology "balanced" I believe yes. For the record I like Cesar's world view about balanced dogs, exercise discipline etc, the details I would leave to a local professional trainer (in my case Steve). With my dad's dog again as I have already said, I wouldn't necessarily have used the same methods, but I would still have been aiming for a happy balanced dog, just taken a different route. Doesn't mean the other methods are worse or wrong, or more hardcore. You have to do what works for you and your dog.

Shell your pics are great. Hmm wish I could consistently get that type of focus. One thing I wanted to add is that I think sometimes when people have had soft dogs of their own they don't realise that some dogs do need fair consistent correction to establish good communication and to deal with ingrained issues. I am in the UK atm and have been doing a bit of basic work with my dad's springer spaniel. He is so easy. My own dog at home is by no means a hard dog but he has had a few issues. In comparison George the springer is soft. If I had had him from a youngster without my Dad slightly ruining him, I reckon he could have been brought up with little or no physical correction. I guess what I am trying to say is I think you have to do what is right for the particular dog you are dealing with, based on its temperament, issues it may have etc. I don't view physical correction in a negative way and I think Shell's story is testament to that. ETA: I was at the aggression seminar and Zero behaved and looked like a big teddy bear. Without being told you would never have known there had been an issue.

I have had a quick read of this and don't see anything new or ground breaking here. He is still saying the same things, talking about what CM might call "dominance" but avoiding using the word. Some of his examples seem very simplistic. When he talks about the chickens that are alphas of their respective groups reestablishing an order when put together doesn't it logically follow that the four original groups might have had weaker individuals and that therefore naturally the order would need to be restablished with a new group. I don't think anyone said either that pack structure was fixed and not fluid. CM talks about his family members being pack leaders too. I think sometimes people take an individual video and use it to further their own arguments. A lot of the stuff that was said in the article the OP linked to is said by CM in his books. Don't get me wrong I can see flaws in CM's approach on occasions, but I think some people wrongly view what he calls dominance with too tight or narrow a definition. Bit like when K9 talks about neutralisation K9 you had better watch out seems your popularity might be making you the target of "cesar milan sydrome" aka "tall poppy syndrome"...

It's funny as I have found Eagle Pack holistic is the only one that doesn't do that to Jake. He was terrible on Eukanuba. Just goes to show each allergy is different. I'm with Erny re the bathing. I rarely shampoo Jake at all these days, he gets a quick hose down after a walk in the mornings and that's it. His allergies are 100% better. He used to have patches like the rotties under his arms ever summer and on his belly. I guess its a case of you have to go with what works.

There is timber decking outside the door which leads straight onto 'brand new' carpet. So there's no capacity for having the door door go through the kitchen or laundry?? I'd suggest a piece of marine carpet or a anti dirt mat (Clark Rubber has plenty of types) on the outside of the dog door might keep the dirt off. I'd also add a mat on the carpet. If we do go down the doggy door path it will be in the laundry, and there is concrete on both sides of that door. The doggy door would only be used overnight for the dog to relieve itself outside. However we never use that door, we always use the back door leading to the deck/pergola and then the yard. This is the door that the potential dog will more than likely use on a regular basis throughout the day. My issue with pets in the house is the shedding of hair, dirt they carry in and that general pet smell. I know people will comment that a dog is as clean as its owner allows it to be, but i know from experience that no amount of grooming/washing will eliminate these issues. I recently stayed at a friends place who keeps a great dane indoors, and she had the whole house steam cleaned prior to our arrival, but the minute i sat on her lounge i got a whiff of doggy smell. My eldest daughter and i suffer from mild allergies to dust etc, so i'm i bit worried about pet hair. I'm a bit obsessive compulsive when it comes to cleanliness, especially personal hygiene for the kids, so the thought of having a dog inside sends shivers up my spine.... i will however state again that i totally understand why people choose to keep pets indoors , i just haven't got my head around the concept as yet, hence the reason for thorough research and plenty of family chats. I don't mean to be rude here, and sorry if it comes across as such, but if smell and hygiene worry you do you think that a dog is the right thing for you to get? You will after all have to pick up poo wherever it lives, staffords will want to be cuddled, they will jump up, they will mouth you, they would crawl inside your skin if they could. If you don't like the idea of getting dirty (and not everyone does so not criticising) maybe a dog is not the best idea. From my experience owning a dog and particularly a pup can be a pretty messy business wherever it lives and it will shed hair on you and your clothes regardless of where it lives. I would also be checking out your allergies as the last thing you want to do is get a dog and then have to rehome it if it sends your allergies of the ricter scale. Having said that, when I got my dog I was pretty obssesively clean, first few days I washed my hands every time he touched me. Soon dropped that habit and now I am still as healthy and muddling around in a less sterile environment :p Actually kids that are raised with animals statistically have less allergies, or at least that is what I heard. I am from Europe originally and the culture as PF says is dogs inside unless they are workers. A lot of people in many countries (Germany, Finland) live with large dogs in very small apartments. Australia with dogs outside was a big shock to my system. I am glad you are doing your research though.

WTF???? I'm outta here. The inmates are running the asylum. No it was just that the person basically was saying get a pound dog they would be happy for anything you could give them. Any dog deserves a good life as far as Iam concerned, that was my point, wasn't being anti-purebred far from it.

If you want an outside dog then have him sleep outside from night 1. DOL represents only a small minority of dog owners...passionate ones. Outside of dol (in the real world) you will find more people have outside dogs rather than inside dogs. Obviously the dog will have suitable housing ie kennel and a coat for winter etc etc. Yeah but you are missing the point, the OP was very interested in getting an SBT. Several breeders came on here (and I agree with them) and said that was the wrong kind of dog to live outside, if you wanted a happy, healthy, non-destructive stafford.

Many rescue organisations don't rehome to outside only homes for the very reason that it is the dogs that have very little social interaction that become the problem barkers, escape artists etc that end up in the pound in the first place. Put a dog back in the same situation and it is likely to become a bit of "bouncer". I think you would find reputable rescue would be every bit as interested in finding the best home for the dog as a reputable breeder. Pound dogs are not second class citizens and I object to the implication that they deserve a lesser life. As people have said dogs are pack and social animals, if you can't provide it with constand company in the form of humans you'd be better of getting 2 (and not staffords if they are going to live outside).

You possibly need to read some of the research which paints a very clear and unequivocal picture of the connection between fatal dog attacks and the way the dog is kept. Google Karen Delise as a place to start. When I was talking about the importance of a strong social bond Sandra, its her Fatal Dog Attacks book I had in the back of my mind. It should be compulsory reading IMO. I think so too it's a real eye opener. Back to the topic, I don't think people are condescending. None of the registered SBT breeders here are saying don't get a dog they (who know their breed and feel passionate about it) are saying the type of set up you are suggesting is not suitable for an SBT and that maybe you should consider another breed. I think if you suggested you were getting a small breed, toy poodle, chihuahua, maltese etc you would get the same answers. If you suggested getting a husky maybe not so much. Some breeds would adapt to living outside better than other and SBT's are not one of them. Actually I own what is commonly known as a "staffy" rescue mutt x and he would hate it too. I think the reason why he is so well behaved in social situations and around children is that he has always had exposure to being indoors, to meeting new people and he therefore doesn't find it over-stimulating. I feel very sad for my neighbours SBT (who is missing a leg as well) who is outside 24/7. What a lonely existence for the poor dog. There is rarely anyone out there to spend time with him. He looks well fed and cared for on a material level, but it is no life for a dog hopping around outside with no company.

Jake had a lump removed from his foot area last November and one from his leg at the same time. Cost me around $750 including pathology for the foot lump. Unfortunately we had problems with the wound closing which involved another GA, so the whole thing with AB's etc came to somewhat over $1000k. That has been enough for me to take out pet insurance for any future non-related issues (obviously you have exclusions for pre-existing conditions) but that was warning enough!!! Luckily it was a histiocytoma (benign) as they had difficulty getting clear enough margins. He still has scars on his foot and his front leg where the warty lump came off but then again he doesn't have much hair on the leg. His modelling career is over before it started though, particularly since then a cat bit through his ear and he has scars from that too, starting to look like Al Pacino Hope the Path comes back clear Ruth.

Thanks that article was good, and I love solid black pointees I have another question, I know that dogs obviously vary within breed in terms of energy levels to some extent. When I was having a look at a site (think it was a US or UK one) there were a few ads from people looking to rehome juvenile pointers as they said they were just so much more energetic than they imagined. One person said they did an hours biking in the morning and and hours running in the afternoon every single day and still the dog was not happy. Is that what you would expect re: energy levels or are there some that are more hard core and some that would be happy with say an active life, by that I mean several walks a day but not nessarily high speed running at every walk, as otherwise I would think that would put them beyond the ability of your average person who works to keep them happy. As an example my own dog has 40 mins free running in the morning, 1hr lead walk (thanks to my neighbour) in the afternoon and training or a short walkin the evening. He is what I would consider an active dog (staffy x kelpie rescue) but judging by some of the things I read that wouldn't be enough for a pointer? I am interested in the HPR type breeds generally but just wonder if it is possible to do them justice if you live in an urban area and work full time? Also another quick question are they prone to gastric torsion?

What a lovely looking dog!

Solid colours are quite popular in Scandanavian countries as they hunt in the snow. The population of Pointers over in places like Norway and Finland would be 50/50 solids to parti colours as solid coloured dogs are more easily seen by the hunters. In countries without snow, the dogs with more white are easily visible by hunters. There are very few areas of Australia where hunters hunt in the snow, so over time, solids were less desirable and not often seen here. This went over into the show ring where 'prettier' parti-colours were favoured over plainer solids. But they're not being bred out. A few people love the solids and plan on keeping them happening in the future. ;) Yeah

Just q quick question, I thought I read somewhere that solid colours used to be more prevalent but in terms of showing are not regarded as favourably. The few solids I have seen are beautiful IMO, is there a sense that that is being bred out (which would be a real shame I think). Is it anything to do with differentiating yourself from the GSPs?