Nic.B

And yet they seem to manage just fine aquiring knowledge when buying cars... The only difference in the two processes is how much they value the "item" they're purchasing. True.

My guess is that it may have something to do with the fact that none of them make sufficient money from their hobby to pursue such activities full time? And frankly, why should they do more than place the dogs they breed in responsible, caring homes? Unlike PIAA, there aren't funds for a professional lobby group either. The answer to all of the issues relating to puppy farms and poorly bred dogs lies in the hand of the BUYER. Education is the answer and there is one organisation with the funding AND the mandate to do it.. the RSPCA. Perhaps if they focus on those issues we might get a paradigm shift in attitude from "its just a dog" to "this is a 15 year investment for my family and I'd better buy carefully and put some time into training". I can dream. So true Poodlefan esspecially compared to the PIAA. Money talks. I dont think we will see anything from the RSPCA nationally sadly.

I dont think you sound like a snob at all and I know your puppies are in the best hands possible. Many of the general public do not even know how to spell or pronounce the names of breeds, let alone know info on them. "I want to buy a puppy" is very sad though relevant. There is no need to ram things down peoples throats, though I honestly believe the info should be easily accessable. And yes at times you need to suffer fools if you are passionate. I have not ever attacked breeders, please show me where I have done so.

I agree with you in that it is not pedigree registered dogs being euthed in large numbers. I do believe that promoting pure breeds, educating people on the difference between a great PB as opposed to a DD online is crucial. People honestly have no idea, there are people in my area who have never thought of PB's and dont even know there is a pound here believe it or not. Puppy farmers have an open market online. If I was a RB or an Org heading up Breederes I would be closing that open market quick smart and at the very least doing my best to educate.

Ah for a perfect world. It's never going to happen with things like Oscar's law, which - like I said so many pages ago and only one person acknowledged (thanks Jaybeece) it's the sneaky stuff that gets pushed in with these laws that is actively divisive of the entire dog community. For example - banning the online advertising / sale of dogs. This will have reputable registered breeders backs up immediately, as they are being lumped in with disreputable puppy farmers simply by choice of media. Divide and conquer. This is what the anti-companion animals nutters will do to the dog loving community, by fostering widespread feelings of guilt, shame and pity in all dog owners, whether breeders or not. Rubbish. I will not ever understand why registered breeders are not doing more to promote/educate re Pure Breeds? I just googled “I want to buy a puppy” all I came up with was puppy farms, pet shops and back yard breeders. Even a PP trainer and behaviourist LOL. IMO you guys should be up there first hit on google offering education and advice re Pure Breeds (or even warning re crosses of breeds) and what owning a puppy entails. Instead you all sit back in an insular world complaining about your rights being disrupted due to so many dogs being euthenased and doing nothing. Seriously you guys are doing nothing to help yourselves or your breeds at all. You have no idea what breeders are doing for their breeds. And if you have an easy way to get to the top of the list in a google search feel free to enlighten me please!! Pay for it.

Ah for a perfect world. It's never going to happen with things like Oscar's law, which - like I said so many pages ago and only one person acknowledged (thanks Jaybeece) it's the sneaky stuff that gets pushed in with these laws that is actively divisive of the entire dog community. For example - banning the online advertising / sale of dogs. This will have reputable registered breeders backs up immediately, as they are being lumped in with disreputable puppy farmers simply by choice of media. Divide and conquer. This is what the anti-companion animals nutters will do to the dog loving community, by fostering widespread feelings of guilt, shame and pity in all dog owners, whether breeders or not. Rubbish. I will not ever understand why registered breeders are not doing more to promote/educate re Pure Breeds? I just googled “I want to buy a puppy” all I came up with was puppy farms, pet shops and back yard breeders. Even a PP trainer and behaviourist LOL. IMO you guys should be up there first hit on google offering education and advice re Pure Breeds (or even warning re crosses of breeds) and what owning a puppy entails. Instead you all sit back in an insular world complaining about your rights being disrupted due to so many dogs being euthenased and doing nothing. Seriously you guys are doing nothing to help yourselves or your breeds at all.

Hopefully this is not too much off topic. The other night I watched this program on TV of the world’s most greediest people which shared what disgusting lengths some people will go to for money. There was one hideous human who made millions illegally harvesting body parts and tissue from deceased. I was mind blown at the enormity of it. I don’t know how he slept at night, but then again he didn’t have a conscience. This man stole body parts and sold them off making multiple millions. He did no health checks at all. Body parts were removed without permission and sold off from even HIV, Hepatitis, cancer etc etc patients. I felt so deeply for the family members whose loved ones had been so disgracefully mutilated for profit and also the recipients of the tissues, organs, bones etc as they now have deadly disease hanging over their heads. I don’t care who you are, If you are geared simply for profit, will sell to anyone who asks with no checks or support, offer no health checks and breed back to back over multiple years or accept puppies from a female bred this way then you can go jump. The above story deals with humans and even then it was hard enough to prove and get him. He got away with blue murder for years and years on end, abused thousands and made millions and millions. Companion animals bred simply for profit, who are poorly homed and are suffering as a result are IMO a captive workforce. It must never, ever be tolerated.

I think you have done very well under difficult circumstances It is important to express how you feel and what you are passionate about, and you are right, lots of others feel the same way. These debates have been going on for years and years on DOL. I hope one day Registered Breeders and their orgs, Rescue and Animal Welfare groups can all work together to stamp out the unreputable sources who contribute to such a disgraceful, profit driven industry where we see loving family pets pts through no fault of their own.

Toy Dog you have made some excellent points along with others. Chin up At least we all have one thing in common a great love of dogs!

Maybe you just can't find them. LOL! Dont worry Lilli, I most certainly have the figures for pounds and shelters who do hand in yearly figures

Quote; ‘Address it; manage pound systems better. But it wont change the situation on the outside ie: owners no longer wanting their pets, or no longer being able or willing to be responsible for them. The numbers of dogs euthd is a pound management issue not an 'overpopulation' issue. The numbers of dogs received through pounds is what your yardstick should be to assess the number of dogs unwanted (or the excess amount of dogs in your overpopulation notion).’ Obviously some pounds and shelters could be managed better. Many are doing a fantastic job. I disagree it is a council issue alone, IMO that is a cop out. It is very much a community issue. In terms of stats re dogs received through pounds/shelters. I will state again that without stats from all pounds and shelters you will not get an authentic picture. I will also say again that it is not compulsory for pounds/shelters to hand in stats, many do not. Quote; “If there really is an overpopulation epidemic, then the numbers of dogs received by pounds today, would be in 'epidemic' proportions compared to the numbers of dogs received by pounds a decade ago. RSPCA NSW: in 1999-2000 they received 20,631 dogs, killed 44.7% of them and Rehomed 36.5%. ...... in 2009-2010 RSPCA NSW received 20,619 dogs [they transferred 709 to other non RSPCA facilities ie RESCUE], killed 40.5% of them and rehomed 24.8%.” I have not said there is an “overpopulation epidemic” I have said that the number of unwanted/abandoned companion animals is at epidemic proportions. IMO this has an enormous amount to do with point of sale, matching people and dogs responsibly, follow up and lifetime support as a bare minimum. RSPCA stats don’t cover all pounds and shelters, so it’s a moot point. “Transferred” also includes dogs transferred to council pounds/shelters btw.

woops I missed this No Tazis I have seen in Kazak but there are Tazis in Turkey - (the Iranian Tazi is much like the Turkmen Tazi - Middle East ancient sighthounds are all called Tazi is this what you mean? Cant you both PM each other with OT junk? You have not responded to my posts re pound stats Lilli. I am looking forward to your response, you are avoiding so far. tsk How rude. Alyosha has just as much right to participate in thread discussion and ask questions, as you do. Yes I understand this Lilli. Alyosha did reconise how "off topic" her comments were. So, back to topic, and more importantly your emphasis on "Pound Stats' Which there is a universal lack of.

woops I missed this No Tazis I have seen in Kazak but there are Tazis in Turkey - (the Iranian Tazi is much like the Turkmen Tazi - Middle East ancient sighthounds are all called Tazi is this what you mean? Cant you both PM each other with OT junk? You have not responded to my posts re pound stats Lilli. I am looking forward to your response, you are avoiding so far.

The number of dogs euthed is most certainly cause for concern and something that needs to be addressed. Regardless, the stats that show companion animals arriving at a shelter, reunited with owners, gone to rescue, adopted or euthed are still voluntary at this stage. There are many pounds and shelters who do not enter stats. There is no doubt that the issue of unwanted/abandoned family pets entering shelters and pounds is at epidemic proportions. IMO point of sale and responsibly homing companion animals is crucial, along with offering lifetime support. I was lucky enough to speak with the family at length re the young boy in my earlier post. They shared with me that he was definitely bought upon impulse. I didn’t help that the PP staff advised them if he wasn’t sold in the next few days “they did not know what would happen to him’. His price was reduced to a still ridiculously high figure, the vet attached to the PP then charged them $350 for a chip and C3. Fast forward 6 months; they have to get rid of him as they can’t meet his needs. He was relegated to the backyard for displaying normal puppy behaviour with no basic training or stimulation. Passive neglect, a classic age for dumping, and due to such poor homing, risk factors that lead to dumping where through the roof. It was only a matter of time. This dogs story is symbolic for so many. Back to the Puppy Farm; If this is the same guy who’s puppy farm was shut down after hideous neglect and cruelty there is no way on this earth he should be given another opportunity.

Dogs end up in pounds and shelters for all sorts of reasons. Toy Dog has made some excellent points. Just because we are euthing (IYO Lilli) the same number of dogs compared to years and years ago does not mean much, even if you have stats. Rescue are very active and are doing a fantastic job in rehoming animals from all sources who have been dumped in recent years. Many pounds and shelters are also working much more proactively in rehoming/reuniting abandoned pets. Compared to 50 or 60 years ago, or even 10 years ago, or even last year. I am rehoming a stunning working breed male atm who was surrendered. Still chipped to Pets Paradise which is where this entire litter was sold off, classic age for surrender, 7 months, not so cute any more sadly. Well not as cute as he was when he was sitting in the Perspex box. His Mum is on limited register, his Father on main register, Father is still in the ring. Half-blood brother (repeated mating) is apparently blitzing his field O/S. I have all of the paperwork, most original, and yes I have chased up the breeders of Mum and Dad and spoken with them to let them know. IME pound stats are so limited it is almost funny for you to suggest they are the be all and end all. I read through stats regularly. Most pounds and shelters do not even hand in stats. It varies from state to state and from what I have learnt, stats are not compulsory to hand in at all. It is done on a voluntary basis at this stage.

I truly feel for you Casowner, Shannon and your beautiful Son. I have been away from DOL and rescue for a while, though noticed your post the other day. We had to let our Old Ray go. We still miss him and speak about Old Ray. My then four year old Hannah and Ray where inseparable. Old Ray taught Hannah speech while he was with us. They were very much two gorgeous peas in a pod. I too agonised over how we were going to share the news with Hannah that Old Ray was ready to cross the bridge. It was difficult, though I gave Hannah 3 days of lead up. That is, I shared with her my concerns for Old Ray in a simple way as she helped me care for Ray and meet his needs. I helped Hannah realise Old Ray was very tired. It is difficult at times, though I prefer to give the kids a ‘pebble’ before the “brick”. It is not the same at all, though I do the same with bath time, bedtime etc (give then 5 or 10 mins lead up etc so they are aware) Hannah was not with old Ray while he was pts at home in my arms, though we spent an amazing few days together with old Ray. Hannah was only 4 and not 9 and I just knew she wasn’t ready to be there for Rays pts. It may be different for you, Shannon and your son. There is the most wonderful advice here. I agree counciling/symbolic gestures are usually very helpful and very comforting for children and adults alike. One thing I would highly recommend that helped Hannah (and me) greatly is books on losing pets. We borrowed some from Hannah’s preschool and the library. They were such a great support for me as a mother of Hannah and Old Ray. It helped prepare us all in many ways. We have many beautiful symbolic gestures for old Ray, the most beautiful came from other DOLers. Beautiful charms, bookmarks, photo frames and even the most beautiful Christmas decoration that Hannah places on the top of our Christmas tree. We have a beautiful sandstone seat above Old Ray and a beautiful tree. Hannah and I often weed it and plant little flowers underneath while we share how special Old Ray was to each of us. We still lie on the grass in the sun, watch the clouds and see old Ray up there watching over us. Hannah tells me Old Ray has lots of children to play with and lots of other dogs and I agree. While it has been painful at times we are all doing well considering. Time is often the healer, though doing what feels safe and relevant for you all in the meantime is also incredibly healing. My thoughts and blessings are with you and your family during this difficult time. xx

I am so very sorry Cathy, heart breaking. I am so happy these little ones were given such a wonderful chance with you, they could not have had a more devoted foster Mum. Run Free little ones I am thinking of you all

The joys of toilet training! We have a Bull Arab puppy here atm. She was a bit of a monkey to toilet train, she was 3 months when she arrived and had a tummy upset which put us back a little though once she recovered fully and after two solid weeks of commitment we had it down pat and she is fabulous now. I supervised her very carefully while inside and closed off areas of the house to lessen the area to supervise. We took her out every 5 or 10 minutes if needed- well it was needed in the beginning. At times Fern was distracted by the other dogs or the horses while outside and much more interested in playing than going to the toilet so I either took her out alone to avoid this or would call my other dogs and get them to wait with me/ignore her while she went. Then lots of praise and rewards etc. Having our other two females here helped, we would all go out together and when they went, Fern would often go (A bit of a pee party) Sometimes I knew she was distracted and had only “half gone” then we would wait and reward. If I was not able to supervise her or had to duck out/overnight she was crated (another milestone) I agree it is important for everyone to do the same thing, consistency is crucial. At times it can feel overwhelming when you are in the middle of training. My parents looked after our lot while we were away recently. Fern’s toilet training and crate training was top of their ‘to do’ list. Fern didn’t skip a beat, I was so relieved! Also agree you all need to be on the same page and keep it positive. As MEH has said, back to basics, it will be well worth the effort though, and much less stressful for you all. Good luck Kirty.

Shut the back door on wet days. Make a concious and concerted effort to re-train her to pee specifically in the rain. Take her outside, treats, praise, all the stuff you did before to train her in the first place. It's really important you praise her for doing what you want her to do now you've discovered this quirk in her nature to avoid getting it any more ingrained than it already is. Yes I have had Staffords that dislike raised voices but I doubt it's specifically linked to the breed, a lot of different dogs are especially sensitive to the moods or actions of their owners - a lot also couldn't care less The very first time she did this retreat to the bed thing what did you do? We reassured her by talking ,patting and encouraging her to come out of the laundry which she did. Sadly when you praise, pat and let her know she is a 'good girl' while she is feeling nervous or frightened you are reinforcing her fear. Basicly you are telling her that it's good to feel and respond the way she is. I learnt the hard way many years ago with my Goldie (before I knew better) he was terrified of storms and fireworks. I reinforced his fear for years It was a nightmare to deal with. He did improve with the right training and approach, though never fully recovered, we just had to manage Russ's fear of storms etc for the rest of his life.

I think this is a fantastic idea I agree that genuine, real experiences are something that other people can relate well to and learn from. Goodness knows how many times I have read and heard of disaster stories re Pet Shop puppies. SandyK I have spoken with Denise from PAWS many times re pet shop puppies she has taken into care. One lady went to buy a new washing machine, her children ran into a pet shop and begged her for a puppy, she came home with a puppy and no washing machine. The puppy was surrendered to PAWS two weeks later because the kids were no longer interested, she couldnt stand the puppy nor was prepared for how much care it needed. Denise has taken chipped to pet shop dogs that have arrived at the shelter I volunteer at, some heavily pregnant and less than 12 months old. We recently had a family who surrendered their pet shop (oodle something) at 4 months of age. The whole family came to surrender him to the shelter on a Sunday morning and all (including their three children) happily waved goodbye! Great example for the kids! This is a link to the Paws site if it will assist you. http://www.paws.com.au/ Good Luck and let us know when the story goes to air

The beer traps have worked well here as well, the sawdust also helped-I have never thought of ash, that's a good idea especially in winter when the fire is going. Our vege garden is rabbit and dog proof, though we had no gate for a few months. I would fill up the little containers with a little bit of beer and put them at soil level, though find them empty and no snails Soon realised Bella our Kelpie was heading down for happy hour each afternoon soon after we got a gate! no more happy hour for the Kelpie.

I must get a couple of these!! Our Cattle Staffy destroys balls in seconds! I am forever buying them. It took her two seconds to deflate the last heavy duty one, then about 15 mins to pull the tug rope out through the middle, after a couple of hours she was running about with the peices in her mouth. I always laugh when I read this; DOG RULES 1. If I like it, it's mine. 2. If it's in my mouth, it's mine. 3. If I can take it from you, it's mine. 4. If I had it a little while ago, it's mine. 5. If it's mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way. 6. If I chew it up, all the pieces are mine. 7. If it just looks like mine, it's mine. 8. If I saw it first, it's mine. 9. If you are playing with it and you put it down, it automatically becomes mine. 10. If it's broken, it's yours.

I have only just had time to read the first 2 pages and gosh that was funny. Mine are all in and out all day long, though always inside at night. My Husband loves to sit up on the couch with the dogs, though he would not often admit it. I hear him calling the dogs to him sometimes if he hops into bed for an early night. The other weekend I sent the dogs all out to play while I vacuumed & tidied up. Tinker our Cattle/Staffy female came back in through the door and wizzed around and around my Husband sitting in a single armchair as he watched the Rugby. The more he cheered and yelled the faster Tinker zipped around the chair with a soccer ball in her gob and the helicopter bum going 100 miles an hour. It was the best entertainment Tinker had, had all day. I just stood there and watched with a huge smile. After at least four loops Greg noticed, looked at me and said, Tinker’s back inside. Got to love them.

Gosh, what an interesting thread. It shows how crucial education is needed in how to buy a puppy or adult dog without supporting unreputable breeders. I feel deeply for the mothers who are forced to breed in terrible conditions in many cases. While there have been some good experiences shared here, for me it’s all about not supporting a ‘market’ which is profit driven, fraught with problems, neglect and even cruelty. I don’t know why, but pet shops always gave me the creeps for some reason, even before I learnt about them. Just a gut feeling I suppose. My children are lucky and will never support an unreputable breeder as they have been so well educated As a small child we had a lovely boy Thomas, who Dad found dumped as a puppy in a recycling depot, he was a great dog. We then had two GSD’s from a very good registered breeder, they were beautiful dogs, Smokey Joe was my heart dog and best friend. Both died of stroke (were pts in our arms at home) at 15 years and 13 years. Our Goldie came from a registered breeder, Russell was heaven on earth and my daughters best friend. He died of cancer at 14 (pts in our arms at home) Our Kelpie comes from two working parents, also a very good breeder, she is divine and at 9 still looks and acts like a two year old. We adore her. Billy a little Foxie/Chi is my heart dog, a gorgeous rescue from PAWS and the best little dog. It’s Billy’s fault I became involved in rescue Tinker Tonk Jug Head is my only foster failure and we adore her. An animated and funny cattle/staffy who is obsessed with balls and toys who we have fallen in love with. What a character she is. I hope in the near future some educational campaigns can be launched on a large scale.

I like Puppy Sniffers idea, there are some great suggestions here. Agree with education for children. Children also teach their parents, mine have taught me a lot and will continue to I have no doubt. There’s nothing like being pulled up on something by your children! I wouldn’t know how to use a computer if not for my kids! :D I am doing a talk for my 6 year old shortly, there’s now two classes coming. We are taking in a dog, doing tricks, and training also educating on a range of issues. Hope to do up some info the kids can take home to Mum and Dad, stickers from the shelter etc. As an aside and venting my frustrations; What about a tazer gun, I could have fun with one of those! (kidding of course)