mita

I PM'ed Chocolatelover to ask what she thought of my reply to her. As I'd be interested in her opinion. We had a courteous exchange talking about the points. Though obviously we didn't agree about everything (& nor should we), I found her friendly & thoughtful.

And, Jed, once again, I find Mark Townend to be a fair-minded bloke. I'd expect he'd make a thorough investigation of this case. As I said....I'd like to see the vet's report on the genesis of the horse's condition, treatment measures & reasons for PTS. Mita, my experience was that what he says, and what he does are totally different. King of spin. Always happy to help dogs misidentified as pitbulls, blah blah, so sad, council wouldn't be stopped --- except nothing was done, or council was agreed with. Just a straw man. I too would very much like to see a POST MORTEM, not a report. A report wouldn't cut it with me - nor with anyone else. And the PM done by a totally independent vet. Someone who does not rely on RSPCA business or RSPCA referrals. In fact, a vet not from Townsville. Yes, I'd like to see the vet report. We'll have to differ on our experiences & conclusions in dealing with Mark Townend.

And, Jed, once again, I find Mark Townend to be a fair-minded bloke. I'd expect he'd make a thorough investigation of this case. As I said....I'd like to see the vet's report on the genesis of the horse's condition, treatment measures & reasons for PTS.

The 10 yr old horse, in Townsville, is reported to have suffered colic to the extent PTS was necessary....while in the RSPCA care. I'd like to see the vet's report quoted on the horse's condition & decision taken. I find Mark Townend CEO to be a fair-minded bloke & would expect he'd thoroughly investigate the incident. No...it wouldn't affect my donating to the RSPCA but I can understand the depth of feeling. I recall my own deep concern when healthy tibbies were seized in Victoria. A good reason why animal cruelty laws should be enforced by a public service, not a charity.

I don't take my small tibbies to an off-leash dog park. No more than I'd let my primary age son play in a secondary age rugby match. I take my girls on leash along the walking tracks & we meet lots of dogs of all sizes, also on leash. Most owners are happy to allow some controlled socialisation. And it always goes well, whatever the size.....because it's controlled. Numbers of the owners say they won't take their dogs to off-leash dog parks....for all sorts of reasons. Border Collie owner the other day, said her dog became too excitable. But was brilliant interacting with my 2 tibs. A few owners of the smaller dogs (especially the fluffies) have told me their dogs are frightened of other dogs....all dogs. But they've been fine with my girls....with all on leash & gradually allowed to approach each other.

I like the ideas posted so far about telling her how breeding dogs will hit her hip pocket & bring complications into her life that she'd rather do without. Nothing about the welfare of dogs is getting thro' to her....& never will. But issues about costing her money & giving her grief will. So bring on all the costs associated with breeding dogs & all the problems that will come out of the woodwork to fall on her lap.

Can you ask the GSD breeder for more info on why she gave that opinion? Must be something in her experience which has led her to that conclusion. We've had 2 females as desexed pets ever since we've had tibbies. Before that we always had working breeds....one male & one female. Our females tibs have been retired showdogs. There might have been a little minor argy bargy when they first came together. But soon they settled in to becoming devoted to each other. Our biggest problem has then been, how a surviving one has fretted with grief when her 'sister' has passed on.

Well said!

Oooooh.....I found Honey the Pitbull's pic. This was the first pic & story in the Old Dogs book! A reporter with the Washington Post newspaper wrote that book....& Honey lived near him. His dog, Chuck,& Honey, the pitbull, used to take walks with him. Right into their old age....where Honey never lost her good looks. Here she is.....beautiful dog with a beautiful nature: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/liveo...ten/eeHoney.jpg

Good to see you also pointing out the challenges of the settling/adjusting period. Which has to be a given. Sometimes it goes as smooth as silk, and sometimes there's a period when the dog's behaviour is nothing like it will be after that time has passed. However, with a young family, there can be limits to the extent of 'difference' during a settling period. In those cases, my suggestion is to look at a dog (possibly more mature) that's already proven itself in a similar situation. Then you would have already seen that dog's baseline behaviours. An example is Lea, a 7 yr old Husky/Shepherd, among the PetRescue selections in this morning's Brissie Courier-Mail. Lea's described as a charmer who is wonderful around children....& has even helped her shelter by making visits to schools. Photo shows a gorgeous, smiling girl. For any Qld'ers wanting to follow up on Lea, her PetRescue ID No is 70837

I'm glad there's a chi going....representing the smallies. When my tibbies are told to 'Sit' on the polished wood floors, they walk across the room to a mat or a cushion.....& then do their 'Sit' in bottomly comfort.

Chocolatelover, I'm sorry you mightn't be around to hear some answers. Re the debarking of dogs.....it doesn't take away their bark, it takes away the high pitch tones. First time I came across 2 tibbies that had been bark- reduced, I just thought they had the sexiest voices. They made the same noises as any other dog, but without the high pitch registers. U ntil I came upon those tibbies, I'd thought debarking must be some monstrous operation that robbed dogs of their voices. Finished up wishing I could have a sexy voice myself, like those tibs. You might be surprised to know that the same thing is undertaken by humans....but not thro' surgery, because people can have speech therapy. Often women working in the media or in the public eye, have intensive speech therapy to lower the pitch of their voices. A famous example was Maggie Thatcher. One of her colleagues remarked that, before she undertook therapy, her excessively high-pitched voice could kill a passing sparrow. This is why bark-lowering (not accurately called debarking) is a regulated procedure in Qld. The law allows that barking which is not remediable by other means....& which threatens the dog's ongoing existence....can be treated to surgery by a vet qualified to do so. And who has to work thro' a list of alternatives first. In Victoria, where this particular breeder lived, bark-lowering is also allowed under a regulated procedure. But they don't have the sense to call it a regulated procedure. They call it a prohibited procedure. This breeder, living near the NSW border, took her dogs over to qualified NSW vet to have the procedure done. But the Victorian law says a prohibited procedure can't be done on a Victorian dog....in another state. So that's where the legal problem was for that breeder. Her dogs had had their barks lowered....via a regulated procedure. But not in her own state. So the RSPCA Vic seized those dogs....even tho' they were in no danger or distress. But, by seizing them, they were then subjected to distress. It was not a case of the breeder must always be right. The breeder acknowledged she'd not followed the Victorian procedure.....& did not quibble or ask for mercy. But what was not right.....was that her dogs were seized by the RPSCA when they even acknowledged they were in perfect condition. Later they were returned.....but only after it was made clear a boarding fee would be charged. The problem was not just because that lady was a breeder.....the same would have applied if she were a pet owner. In all honesty, breeders posting on DOL have been open when they do not approve how other breeders keep or treat their dogs. There's no rule of thumb here that says a breeder must always be right. The RSPCA Qld acknowledges that, too, in how they tell people to seek out a good, responsible breeder. Not just a breeder.

The greyhounds I saw being assessed by GAP (my small dog was their last test, I think) were the most amazing, calm & confident dogs. We had a big male of that type living next door....& he won the hearts and respect of all the neighbours.

If a test is being constructed which would have validity & reliability when testing humans, the cohort for study has to be very large. I find it difficult to figure out what this researcher believes she's testing. If it's sociability traits in a dog, then a sociable context is required. As the intent of producing the test appears to be sorting out which dogs will make good pets....then removing that context is removing the variables which are relevant to stimulating those kinds of behaviours. If it's just....how does this dog react to a particular stranger in a particular location that is strange to the dog at this particular point in time....aren't there already 'assessments' which do that? It'd be interesting to read the literature review which supports the hypothesis for this piece of research. If the test gets to the production stage, that rationale should appear in the manual. So I'll wait...

Not just you....me, too! I've seen the same thing....a dog stressed by adjusting to a new home, can go into a frenzy of boundless movement. Even a tibbie.....the calmest of dogs....did that when we adopted her. She was like a whirling dervish at first. Few weeks later when she accepted her new home.....her basic personality surfaced. She was actually the calmest, most sensible dog....in all circumstances. She'd had 2 moves before we got her, & that may have made her sensitive to a new environment. The cat we adopted from the UQ Adoption Program also did the same. She'd been saved from a pound & lived a secure life at the uni for a year. I picked her out because she lay so calmly among the other cats watching all their antics. But when we took her home, she went into this movement frenzy....watching for imaginary geckos up on the walls....stalking & taking no notice of anyone else. This went on & on & on... After a few weeks, she accepted her new home....& turned back into the calm, unstressed cat I'd seen at the uni. You're so right, the newly adopted dog we see in the first month or two....can be the opposite of what they're like when the stress of being in a new home wears off. And new routines & relationships take over. A great deal depends on how much it's possible for a family....or a person....to work thro' these early days. So I wouldn't flame anyone who decides it's not possible in their situation.

I saw a positive pitbull story, recently. It was in a book about how special the older dogs are. Award winning journalist & photographer combined to find examples that were people's pets. There was a lovely pic of each....accompanied by a little story of the pet's life. First pic & story in the book was carefully chosen, because this dog had every loveable quality. Her name was Honey & she was.....a pitbull. The owner's son had found this dog, lost & in awful condition, on the streets many years back. The mum took one look at the dog & said, in hushed tones...'That's a pitbull!'. And was worried the family might all get eaten. But no matter what was done, this lovely dog just reacted with the sweetest temperament & good nature. When they decided to keep her, the choice of name was a no-brainer....HONEY! Honey by name & Honey by nature.

Our tibbie Angel did much the same to save a toddler who'd wandered onto the road outside....around from a blind corner. Angel literally screamed & screamed. A noise I've never heard a dog make before or since. I thought she'd been bitten by a snake. But we found her at the side fence, screaming at something on the road. A little toddler was just standing there. I raced out & grabbed the child. Just as we reached the footpath, a big white van hurtled around the blind corner. If it hadn't been for the little dog, that child would've been killed. Angel was nominated for a Hero Dog Award with DOGS NSW for doing that.

I agree with PF that you can love a dog hugely, but it's not the breed or personality that your circumstances can deal with. So no flames from me. Just understanding how you'd feel a bit broken- hearted as you watched this boy snuggle into your cap. Over the years, we've adjusted our' breeds as pets', for that reason. Border collies when a lot of hands & opportunities for activity.....then slightly scaled down to more of a housedog, shelties. And now, the easiest house/social dogs to live with....tibbies. But over all that time, there was one marvellous little dog that blended in so well with family, social & activity life, at all stages. A little black mixed breed dog, found thrown from a car as a puppy. She lived until she was nearly 23 yrs. I'd wonder if an older, mature, mellow dog....already used to family life....might be a way to go in your circumstances. Not a puppy or a 'teenager'. We've adopted dogs like this from good breeders, in recent years.

I read about the UK ABS when looking at the consequences of the Purebred Dogs Exposed kerfuffle. Their scheme seems to 'sit' beside their laws regarding the breeding & sale of dogs. I wonder how DOGS NSW will configure the scheme here.

I'd back a Smooth Collie, too, for thinking about. IMO one of the hidden gem breeds in the dog world. If I were back at the family level with children....that's the breed I'd be looking at. With a Cardigan Corgi as the second dog in the family.

The reality is that most of the people posting in this thread are also committed to wanting change. It's a theme that's come up constantly on DOL. In the meantime, we've got things as they are now. My brain is still bruised from the odd things in the Victorian cruelty law that led to a breeder's bark-reduced dogs being seized by RSPCA Victoria, even tho' they were not in distress or danger. It came down to that law allowing 'things' to be taken for evidence & 'things' could be animals. And more!. Many of the people posting in this thread immediately helped that breeder who'd been placed in a distressing situation by the law that the RSPCA in Victoria acts on. And I've soundly critiqued the 'information' coming from the national RSPCA re the status of purebred dogs. Alongside many of the people posting in this thread. Yes, good stuff is coming from UQ. And other Australian sources. But the real challenge is to get the ideas off the page of reports & papers....& into real life.

Agree, RSPCA Qld has a sense of fairness to all dogs by pointing people to options in adopting from the RSPCA, or rescues....or purebreds from the responsible breeders. From their Feb 2010 newsletter: If you are considering adoption, why not visit the RSPCA or another reputable rescue organisation first. If you are seeking a specific breed then we recommend you find a responsible breeder.

The RSPCA is a large organisation (to state the obvious ) With different attitudes across the various states (like Qld RSPCA is the opposite to Victoria on BSL). And different 'takes' on policy, within each state. At the national level this shows up, too: With the national RSPCA sending out an excellent media report about dog bites (in line with the US Vet Assoc's findings in their task force). But it also sets out highly debatable 'information' that disses purebred dogs & seemingly warns potential pet buyers against them. While RSPCA Qld, based on their field experience & the evidence coming from u of q research, says the opposite....they tell people in their latest news report, to go to a good breeder when they want a purebred. The RSPCA has been historically given a poisoned chalice in that it's the body charged with enforcing cruelty laws & also act as a welfare agency, and lobby re law and goverance on animal matters. All, too much & too conflicting. The CEO RSPCA Qld has gone public saying this shouldn't be so & that the law enforcement role should taken away. To a public service with adequate resources, entirely funded from a parliamentary budget. If this was changed, it'd show up that it's what the law says, which counts. So to improve things, start lobbying for law reform. After the experience with looking at the Victorian animal cruelty law, re the move against a breeder for debarking her dogs....I think there's one law which badly needs reform in its language. So I'll take the RSPCA, issue by issue, & will help where I can. I've always contacted them directly, in my state, when I think an issue needs looking at. Every time, I've got a satisfactory response. I'm a Life Member of both the RSPCA Qld & AWL Qld. And would have no problem leaving them money....especially as the RSPCA Qld & a U of Q Veterinary facility will be sharing the same campus & working together. (But I'm not planning to leave this earth soon )

You've achieved heaps in that shop has had an RSPCA inspector walk thro' their door. They now know...the conditions are under the microscope. A 'pet' warehouse opened here, with their 1st advertising saying, 'Over 100 pets....puppies & kittens....for sale!' That worried people...just the sheer number of little creatures stuck in a suburban shop building. Contacted RSPCA re that worry. RSPCA inspector said it was in the general region he serviced. So he said he'd pop in & say he was taking the opportunity to introduce himself. A show of the welfare flag....

MDBA Pacers 349 transmitter Rd Wooroolin Queensland 4680. Thanks, Steve. And I urge my fellow dinosaurs to get their envelopes & stamps out for a good cause. What is this strange language you speak??? It's like things pulled out of an archeological dig. Archeologist says, 'I wonder what the hell they did with those things!'