toy*dog

we keep ours, i just can't bear to part with my bitches that has given me a good bloodline to go on with. we also are a very small volume breeder only preferring to breed to replace a very small show team for ourselves not for anyone else. every breeder is different, some find nice homes for the bitches after they've been desexed. we are able to do that keep our oldies as we have the dogs on two properties. the whole family own our dogs and share them.

what i dont get is, alot of those videos of raids and what not, are in daytime so where is the owner? no owners in site just rows of dogs. did the owner go to sleep or something no staff there either. i dont' understand that bit. or maybe the owner went to town to do some shopping. and leave the dogs on their own to give birth. as you do i suppose NOT!!!!!! It is not my business to judge people on their whereabouts the second I look for them. Or how long they go shopping for. Of if their dogs give birth on their own for the whole time or a period of time. Lots of dogs give birth unattended. why that response so if one of your bitches starts whelping that would be the time that you duck out is it and leave her on her own? i know i don't leave them i am right there with them whether that is assisting or not depending on the circumstance. im not going to get into a bum fight with you about that. im just talking generally mate. as i said earlier alot of these farmers are not there with the bitch when they are whelping which in my experience is not good particularly with toy dogs as there are alot of things that can go wrong. maybe your breed has fewer problems but owning for almost 30 odd years several toy breeds i know only too well the problems in whelping and to think that some of them can run into problems and have not a human in sight when a pup gets stuck or they can't push out needing a C-S which is sometimes all too common in toys, then i can see the pain those little dogs would go through. and YES i am not new to any of this, dogs can give birth unattended ofcourse they can we all know that, but also at a drop of hat things can go pear shaped very quickly. if you look on the net you will see several documents from vets stating what happened at these farms (mainly on prisoner for profit) and how the farm owner was not present during the night at the whelping the dog was whelping in the shed and either died or puppies died or something happened this is why the vet was writing the report. and also, several farms on their glossy websites have stated that they search every morning to see who's had puppies. like as though it is a livestock farm where you go out into the field to check on the sheep to see if they've given birth or not (family own a sheep station). with toy dogs it doesn't always work out easy like that, more often than not toy dogs do have complications they are not the easiest to whelp not unless you are lucky to have a free whelping line and boy is that hard to acquire, (!!!??)its taken me 20 years at least to accomplish that from several bloodlines i've been working with and im still not completely there yet as i keep introducing fresh lines that are not free whelping even though the breeder indicates it is. however that wasn't my angle, my angle was how are these people getting into these properties. im not really judging i am just wondering what goes on. the owners appear to never be there, in the videos they take anyway or even the pictures, just an observation not meaning to attack anyone here and to say who is right and who is wrong.

hi Sylvia i put my name down for the working party in the seminar and so did alot of other people so i was knocked back??? i got sent a letter like other people to inform me I was unsuccessful. i certainly would be interested in joining the committee. i know of alot of other people who would be too who are more experienced than i in such matters. im not into im right your wrong tactics. i just read the annual reports but as i also say there are alot funds plowed back into our organisation to benefit the members like upgrading KCC park and small projects etc. etc. the reason i know about the letters being sent out to various members asking why so many litters yadda yadda yadda from DV is because many members have told us so at our own dog club. which is commendable and all that but wouldn't it be better if we did employ a person to investigate such matters? i am only repeating what the masses are saying don't shoot the messenger. i just didn't see all that the committee has done in any part of the gazette and i was wondering if you would be able to direct me to it, where it is so i can read it maybe i missed it. or if its not in there it might be a good idea do you not think? to perhaps inform the members of what is going on as i get alot of members talking amongst themselves and they are saying that DV are not doing a thing as it looks like that from our side of the fence. i didn't mean to offend just going on what others are also saying and just repeating. yes you can't please everyone can you, im in the line of work that deals with a large membership too and also alot of media cameras in your face stuff, there's always someone that is not happy. but i think that if it weeds out unscrupulous people joining our organisation why not have ID it takes a second to either send it in or show it. many were also complaining of the companion animal club and those people using "our" facilities and i didn't really get why many members were up in arms about this, anything where we can educate pet people to learn about what we do as an organisation and they use our facilities, so what, is good. many got on their high horses about that one i just couldn't see it as a bad thing.

what i dont get is, alot of those videos of raids and what not, are in daytime so where is the owner? no owners in site just rows of dogs. did the owner go to sleep or something no staff there either. i dont' understand that bit. or maybe the owner went to town to do some shopping. and leave the dogs on their own to give birth. as you do i suppose NOT!!!!!!

sorry just remember another issue we are talking about registered breeders thinking they are superior but can be as bad as backyarders or commercial farms who dont' look after their dogs welfare. over many years i have saved a few from REGISTERED BREEDERS, the same breeders who claim they have champion after champion and what you see in the ring healthy dogs and their reputation you'd think they would have the same at home wouldn't you. nope. i've had dogs handed to me with so many fleas jumping about and a sentence came with the dog, look after my baby??? the dog stunk. the dog was looking all confused when the person dumped him in my arms. this dog had had 4 or 5 homes before us and this is where he stayed for the rest of his life. another 4 dogs i got from a top breeder and i got told that they didn't want them because they weren't to standard in looks. then promptly told me ( and i was really suprised at this) that how they were fed was put one bowl of dry food in the middle of the yard they reside in and let them go for it, so if they miss out they miss out. got these dogs home and they ate like as though it was their last meal. meanwhile mine get their own food bowl, and an area to eat their meal where no others can disturb them and take away their food. as dogs do if you don't supervise. these dogs got no supervision when eating so i can imagine the fights that would have happened dogs just being dogs, and also one was pregnant accidentally breeder said. was on heat and was just left to mate one of the other dogs. to me this is lacking in care and this was a prominent breeder. another breeder gave me a dog once they heard that i do take in dogs, said i can come and pick him up, so i did and just before the breeder was going to give him away to someone undesexed. i just believe not desexing just encourages people to use them for breeding. but this breeder wasn't too concerned where he would have ended up just as long as he was gone. another one of her dogs turned up in rescue and they weren't interested that it did. me, i'd have a coronary. but thats just me. so i do understand that not always just because a breeder says they are reg ANKC they are somehow a magical person doing all the right things.

did i say i don't vaccinate every year and dont walk my dogs? i certainly do do all those things, i hope you were just using that as an example of what they can say i hope its not thought i don't do those things because i believe in vaccinations every year and i also believe in exercising my dogs and training every day in actual fact Sorry Toy dog - no I wasnt accusing you of doing that and I have no way of knowing either way i was just using it as an exaple of what could be said about any one. You see I think its cruel to vaccinate your dogs every year and I really really hate the fact that in order to comply with mandatory codes a breeder get no option. no worries i thought that might be the case but i was unsure. i thought maybe i indicated that somewhere in my posts : we actually get them done every 18 months or so to be fair with the adults and i do know of alot of other breeders who also think the same way just vaccinate their young pups ofcourse but when they reach a certain age they are not done and they are still very much alive and healthy and well. there's evidence to suggest that we only ever need to be vaccinating our dogs once and then they are covered for life. there's been alot of literature on the subject which is very interesting to read. but i guess that doesn't sit well with people who don't breed dogs.

did i say i don't vaccinate every year and dont walk my dogs? i certainly do do all those things, i hope you were just using that as an example of what they can say i hope its not thought i don't do those things because i believe in vaccinations every year and i also believe in exercising my dogs and training every day in actual fact

im not really on anyone's side here just reporting what i am observing really. i didn't say its right to do that, after reading what she does and actually meeting this person, i did get the feeling that maybe if i put a foot wrong i could be the one on the receiving end here simply because some one is working off a tip off. it just seems to me its all cloak and dagger stuff, people who say they are ethical breeders when they are not behind closed doors, people who say they are rescuing dogs when they are not behind closed doors. so who do you believe who do you not. i guess meeting this person that was the leader i got the feeling that she doesn't take on face value what people tell her that maybe she has to see for herself. i got tarred with the same brush as the rest that abuse dogs i got the feeling of that in my encounters. to the point where i had to not have any contact as i could be the one targetted from the mob of people against anyone as far as i could see that breeds dogs point blank. someone saying they are ethical and care and all that falls on deaf ears as unscrupulous people know how to talk the talk and walk the walk and say all that as well. so its a messy business all this, and i do prefer now to support afar and keep up with what is going on. my mother didn't like the fact i was talking to her and met her she said she sounded like a (im sorry for lack of a better word here) a *thug* going into properties and raiding and all that she does. i'll PM you steve i have to tell you something.

we keep saying this VCA/dogsvictoria members for years and years but you'd think with allthe membership fees that they collect if they were really serious they'd be doing the same thing and either hiring animal officers to investigate or doing as MDBA do and hiring a PI, they can afford it as they issue an annual profit report and its thousands of dollars profit. they do spend a lot of it on upgrades to the dog centres and what not but it is a big concern amongst our members and has been for years so instead of sending letters out to members asking questions about their escapades they'd get more active and serious. but nope, haven't heard a thing of what the puppyfarm committee is doing.

it is justified doing it through raids and other means because they (animal rights people and others) say that police, RSPCA and council refuse to act? and also the police were actually operating puppy farms themselves. many people on here have said that RSPCA are weak and sometimes don't even act when it is infront of their face that there is a cruelty case going on. i haven't had that problem myself they've acted fairly quickly in my experience. so this is their reasoning? they also go on to say the laws have failed these dogs, they can only act when the dogs are near to death. RSPCA/animal rights people. so they intervene to save the dogs and one video they had up, don't know if its still there but they went to take a look at the dogs and one puppy was lying still on the ground so Debra and her friend picked up the pup it was fitting i think clearly a sick little baby. they took it in the car and tried to rush it to the vets. it ended up dying. but it was in the farm in a pen on its own and no owner or anyone was in sight.

im a registered breeder and i have fostered dogs, i have rescued dogs from "breeders", i am an animal lover and i am against puppies being sold in petshops. it breaks my heart. there are alot on here like me too. you are wrong. and there's another aspect the hidden cruelty that i alert people to, what they don't mention because they don't know the breeding side of it all i suppose well i know that for a fact as i had to explain alot to the leader and she was very interested in what i had to say, is those pups often have hidden genetic problems as the parents are not health tested for that particular mix as they have several mixes of breed in them. pedigree dogs at least you can predict lots and have a better chance of obtaining a healthy puppy. as MDBA have written staff are often not qualified enough to address buyers concerns so those buyers are on their own and this leads into issues with dumpage etc etc. people (refuse to call them breeders becauae they are not!) who sell their pets to shops don't obviously care so churn out more and more. endless cycle. i think there is too much focus on the cruelty in farms when those same farms can say to govt and council as they do, the former mayor of one council i spoke to told me what these farmers actually tell govt and councillors! we do look after our animals, we feed them we water them, we exercise them so there is NO PROBLEM. anyway, i got chucked out for my comments on pedigree dogs when i wasn't really speaking about pedigree dogs! i was speaking about the breeding side in general to get people to think outside the box and to counteract what the farmers are actually saying to the people who make the laws. then i had one person come on just to wind me up and say i am cruel to expect my dogs to breed and what right do i have to breed dogs. and i thought right oh, if animal rights people think that all breeding is cruel then where do they expect to get their dogs when the shelters dry up because breeding will be banned? doesn't make sense. perhaps that person was from PETA i have no idea but it was scary and a really out there opinion. but i did wonder from then on, how many others think the same thing. i dont think anyone is disputing that fact. steve has stated she has come up against some registered breeders who have failed the grade and i have too and there are unscrupulous breeders amongst our midst. but its a difficult issue in how to eliminate these people out of the picture, dogsvictoria asked that same question and then there was a whole session on what is a puppy farmer and how do we go about gathering evidence that they are in the wrong. these people are giving us all a bad name. there were some on prisoners for profit website who said that DOGSNSW should be ashamed of themselves for taking the money when they knew these people were exporting and breeding alot of litters. perhaps they haven't got to that stage like dogsvic of actually asking the members why so many litters and what for. not that that's going to deter these people really i think to myself.

there's one farm who quite clearly on their glossy website advertises the fact that they have 5 or 6 people looking after their dogs full time staff. over 700 dogs. not near enough people IMO. they pride themselves on this fact, and they also pride themselves on being the best and largest in Vic. it takes forever with just 10 dogs. i can't imagine the committment it would take for 1000 it would drive me insane i'd go insane because each dog has to be played with, have their training one on one with me and could you imagine what i'd be like with 1000 i'd never get a rest i'd have to work through the night to tend to them. its obvious that these dogs in farms their needs are not being met at all aside from all the other issues we have already gone into here. its not right. poor poor dogs. being an animal lover i get so upset.

In doing so, please weigh opinion by the bias and qualifications of the source. Some topics, such as vaccination of children, draw a lot of extremists who are repeating a bunch of garbage, over and over. They continue to cite articles that have been shown to be fraudulent and have retracted by the journal that published them. It's sad that access to thoroughly researched papers is often expensive, and people whose opinion isn't worth a damn is all over the place. i don't think that i need to google i can draw on what i know after almost 30 years. although i do google particular topics like veterinary notes if i need resources and discuss it with my vet and get second opinions fully research and by doing this i've found out alot over the years, also read alot of books but mainly draw on my learning experiences from breeding dogs and what i've come up against.

If I didnt think other people had enough intellegence to work it out for themselves - especially front line rescuers like you I wouldnt be here knocking myself out, putting up with abusive calls and emails and PM's. this is the problem i have sometimes with this forum. are they abusing you because of what you say on here? at least you are being honest with what you think and giving your opinion. not everyone agrees with each other, we all have different opinions. if we had the same line of thinking this would be a boring place on this forum. this is what i do with breeders when i write my little articles designed to get people thinking, i realised that every breeder had different thoughts based on what experiences they've had. if these people are saying things behind the scenes, instead of hiding why don't we all come clean and let everyone know what their problem is, so we can discuss it ??????? you see this is not all pie in the sky stuff and flogging a dead horse is it, far from it.

in our own code of ethics it states member shall not cause the bitch to whelp more than twice within any 18 month period. so even the state controlling bodies do not support it although, they will let you register a back to back once but i'd never consider doing it over and over again like these farmers do. watching my bitches go through all that and for me too the stress involved, the involved care. yes nic b it takes a lot to raise a happy healthy litter of puppies. it also takes a fair bit of money especially if it doesn't all go according to plan! i always make sure i have plenty of money in the bank when i plan to breed my littlies. this is my point too. yes steve they have staff but one farm i know off has over 700 dogs and no code addresses the issue that it takes alot to care for 10 dogs all their social needs (i should know been doing it for years and years) and to give each dog individual attention. so these farms have 5 staff for 700 dogs? they should be employing 70 people to look after 700 dogs. plus they make no secret about how they look after their dogs there are vet reports on the net of what happens. farmer wakes up at 6am to bitches giving birth 9 times out of 10 its always happened with us, bitches will start during the night. so these dogs are on their own giving birth so what happens if there is a complication, pup side ways presentation stuck in birth canal? meanwhile the farmer is sleeping, tends to the dogs out in paddocks like sheep wakes up and searches for who is still alive and who isn't. the mortality rate was enormous in one farm. out of 2000 pups born in one period alone only half of them survived and sometimes bitch would die with the pups. deplorable. dogs are not livestock but these farmers sure do treat them like that. evidence is there in black and white.

no mention of going to an ethical reg ANKC breeder. it just mentioned licenced, who is that, licenced is a puppy farm! they are licenced from the govt. no wonder the public are confused. not enough education out there. still i say.

got a friend that went to the council to get a permit for 6 dogs and i think 2 temporary dogs just incase she has 2 puppies from litters she wants to run on. by law she and her hubbby had to construct an elaborate kennel structure to house all the dogs, but they never go in there they are all in the house, they have a room dedicated entirely to the dogs it is tiled and beautiful. those dogs get treated like human babies they get everything and if i died i'd want to come back as one of my friends dogs!

These people are fully accountable to the law but take a look at what it is they are using to determine a puppy farmer - its not just whether you care for your dogs or whether you follow the law. its about not keeping them inside on satin pillows and only breeding according to what they have decided is best for the species. Its about how many you own with some magical number being too many. Its about where you advertise them or who you sell them to - its even about what info you give your puppy buyers on diet. i guess us cooking for our dogs every evening is somehow not within legislation. i once had a discussion with a very good friend in WA who is also a breeder and she asked me what do i feed my dogs, i told her and according to some people it is not acceptable to feed dogs anything other than commercial pet food and dry food. her dogs are on dry food their whole lives becasue she told me dry food and commercial food already has all the vitamins in it that dogs need. what is wrong with adding your own multivitamins and knowing whats in the food, commercial food you don't know if you are feeding road kill to your dogs, i've grown up in a farming community and they know what they put in petfood and its not pretty, oaffle and all the bits that humans can't eat. yuck, i'd rather feed my dogs chicken breast, steak and chicken mince mixed with all different kinds of food the same as we eat then i know what we are all eating at least. like someone said the animal people are going on about dogs being fed scraps. our old aussie terrier cross got fed scraps and cuppa tea her whole life. in those days it was unheard of to get dogs vaccinated particularly in the country and farm dogs it was never done down where we lived anyway. that dog lived to 17 and was never sick a day in her whole life. and the dogs of today get raised the same way on the same food.

i get what you were saying before about care now. because its the care that is important and if there is a lack of care then these sorts of poeple need to be fully accountable to the law. i encompass also breeding blindly as the care issue too. not knowing whether the dogs in your care have any hidden recessive genes and just putting any dog to any dog. i know of some reg ANKC breeders who don't test, refuse to but then charge heaps for stud fees and when you ask has this dog been tested for x disease the answer is always no i don't need to test! so why are you charging a lot of money, because of the bloodlines that happens to have x amount of champions in it. so what. not intersted in how many champions the bloodlines has or whether they are BIS winners or not. some breeders can't see past this what im intersted in is the health of that bloodline. i've always said these kinds of breeders that refuse to be responsible by not testing but still charging a bunch of money are no better than a backyard breeder and they have no right to think they are better in my eyes. until they prove it by taking the appropriate steps to ensure the puppies they produce are the healthiest they can produce.

example: ANKC breeder who got dobbed in by a person who went to a vet, RSPCA confiscated all the dogs some were in season some were puppies, they could not get the breeder on the care as the dogs were all in A1 condition. they tried. it was all over de-barking and taking dogs into public like that which is now against the law in this state. other ANKC breeder pic was posted on facebook of a puppy being mistreated, but this breed has been known to have an open fontenele which can be due to hydroceph these puppies do not thrive we have one at the moment. they look like they've been starved yet our little guy gets fed every 2 hours, this little dog is mentally impaired and his brain signals because of the fluid in his head are minimizing signals so he doesn't know when to eat and when to drink for instance we have to dropper feed him and he only eats on our laps. he is not full blown hydro though he is quite happy and while he is like that i won't be putting him down he is not in any pain. but this breeder i noticed had a similar dog but it was dubbed this breeder was abusing this dog and then she had dogs seized and this picture put up everyone saying they are a farmer. i said to my vet if animal people came in and seized my little hydro puppy that we are giving round the clock care to becuase they are sick and so fragile i'd be prosecuted as a notorious puppy farmer wouldn't i. the vet said you have taken him to me and other vets and it is documented so he doesn't think so but i don't know.......

million dollar question there.

nope you are right. there are pictures for the chicken wire and videos and you can clearly see dogs on sitting on it. you can also clearly see dogs in metal sheds small garden sheds with no insulation just iron roofing they pan up etc to the ceiling. dogs with eye infections and all sorts of health problems. they claim that person actually told them that they make no secret of the fact they kill their dogs this way. all still heresay though. the people who saw this and actually did witness these goings on should be the ones to report it otherwise telling others who tell others just turns into heresay and the truth is compromised then. i guess the ones who witnessed it dont' want to be involved. i know if i witnessed anything like that i would not be able to stop myself taking a garden tool myself and using it!

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road. Its against the law to put down dogs with garden tools why werent they charged? These conditions are against the mandatory code surely they havent been given approval to keep dogs like this? within the law they said that all they could get them on is the height of the pens which were less than what was allowed, all that other stuff, first off RSPCA did try to stop them and they succeeded for a little while but then when it went to VCAT they gave the licence back. council refused to renew licence but then had to give them another licence. but all that other stuff was not mentioned. i guess you need witnesses and no one was game to come forward.

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road. Its against the law to put down dogs with garden tools why werent they charged? These conditions are against the mandatory code surely they havent been given approval to keep dogs like this? it has to be proven. its just second and third hand info which i dont' doubt for a minute wouldn't be true remember i know this person and i know what they are capable off. but it still has to be proven only heresay. i am so glad in the early years they never got any of my dogs, they wanted some for breeding to their pom cross. it would have killed me to know that any dogs that i bred or even owned would have ended up in that situation with this person.

Im the girl who takes the complaints - usually its not our members so I dont have to be bothered with them but sometimes it is our members so we have to investigate and put people through the wringer to check them out. Sometimes we employ a private investigator to do this. You could not possibly imagine what breeders dob each other in for and even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and say they truly believe what it is they are accusing them of the fact they see these things bad enough to dob them in over are so trivial and stupid is amazing. Watch the shit fight that comes out of this. yes some of them need to grow up and think to themselves they are representing a group of people out in the community and what is it saying to the community? i try to be diplomatic and not say anything against anyone and try to be friends with them all and my friend who is the boss (secretary) makes sure everyone gets along by telling them we are not going to bring up our personal differences it is not in the interest of the club keep them at home. we are here to enjoy ourselves and each others company she talks to them like children and it works.