toy*dog

im a breeder and i think it shows you have put a lot of thought into all of this. very commendable HOWEVER, emails are sort of like distancing yourself from people as i always say in emails you are unable to show emotion and tone and there is alot of blanks to fill in so encourages alot of assumption by both parties. i've had that with buyers before, chose to send them an email and because its behind a screen and not in person people tend to say alot more than they would if it was face to face, boy do i know that one. they get the wrong idea and the conversation degrades from there talking to a breeder and visiting can give you a general feel for why a breeder is breeding and whether they are knowledgable enough or not. and how they look after pups and what you can expect and what they can expect it does go both ways. i agree with most on here, your list of questions in an email is a bit in your face type thing, and you have to remember that breeders like everyone else have busy lives and some are not able to answer questions like that or type out an email, much better to ring and talk to the breeder and that way most of your questions can be answered in the first conversation. people feel much better about answering questions on the phone. if i got a list like that i wouldn't be put off by it i'd just suggest to ring me also as others have said on here.

Steve said: ah yep, i got told by DPI when i rang them for information, that puppy farmers from large properties in the area are entitled to make a living anyway they see fit, its called "free trade" as we are a free country last time i checked. as i have said numerous times its really up to the public and what they do and how well they are able to make informed choices. If everyone did stop buying petshop puppies there would end up being none in the shops at high prices but thats the trouble many are STILL unaware of where the puppies in shops actually come from. talking about microchips, i have a couple of breeder friends who have had troubles with microchips with their tiny toy dogs once before, one dog started walking wonky and then ended up not being able to walk at all and it was because the microchip affected the dogs spine from memory.

more like bye bye pedigree dog - hello designer mutt. oh lordy what is this world coming to, a few patrons of the dog world that have long since departed this world, i can think of many would be turning over in their graves right about now. who knew in the 21st century this crap would be going on. when you look at it, its like these days, people challenge tradition and i think thats really whats happening here when you really look at it. pedigrees are no longer in vogue. who knows how long thats going to take to come back around again. if ever. we usually say "only in America" but now we need to change it to "only in Australia" where ignorance is bliss. now do many more understand the implications of such legislation? steve has been trying to tell people for many months and i thought the same as most first off then steve got me to really think about it all, at first i didn't understand her angle but now i know that steve is wise in her words.

just goes to show that these people making all the laws have no idea. i thought so. what about hobby breeders from ANKC. hello? how ridiculous, its like the hobby breeder doesn't exist in their eyes or his eyes because they obviously know nothing about the dog world. we are all out to make a buck and thats it, is that how it goes. grrrrrrr that gets my dander up i can tell you.

i had this breed about 15 years ago now, last one died about 4 years ago from old age, but i found that poms are extremely clean and extremely intelligent little critters. and yes being very lively breed of dog they don't tolerate too well being confined for long periods. whereas the chis they thrive as they are really a good inside dog to have. poms are too and other toy breeds, but i found chis to be better suited overall.

sorry a bit off topic, but talking about house training its along the same theme at least are you in the chi thread i can't remember. but just to address this, we've had some buyers come back after giving them a pup or young dog and they've come back with, "the dog isn't toilet trained". basically doing what you described up top. my advice to one person was, don't stand there with the dog they never do anything when you are with them as they would see you as their one way ticket back inside the house and because they are dying to go they will wait until they are back inside then go. so what we do with our young pups is either have an area that they can always use that already has their own smells there or don't stand with them leave them for 5-10 mins outside by themselves. usually works better when you have other dogs around going too though. this lady that told me that, only had the one bitch but it did work what i told her to do. we usually have a word like outside now or out and they know its the toilet break, so we do that every hour or so after them being inside, works like a charm for us. but then again our dogs are trained from day dot to do this and also the young pups do follow the adults and learn that way. bit more difficult when you only have one dog. or puppy.

THis bit was of some concern to me as well.. as it seemed a very small space. oh ok i missed that entirely, seemed to have skimmed over that bit. that is a bit of a concern yes i do agree, as my little dogs certainly do have more space than having 5 different sleeping positions, i make the pens the length of one room and my breeder friends actually have whole rooms dedicated to the dogs and puppies. i think maybe the original poster needs to clarify this bit.

this. so what constitutes cruelty i wonder. i spose we won't know anything until the actual legislation comes out. i wouldn't like to rely on the media when they are known to stretch the truth a bit.

a young puppy going from toileting on newspaper to toileting on grass is going to take a while. all our little dogs are brought up to go on newspaper but get let out during the day onto grassed areas so have the best of both worlds. some of our buyers have reported that the pup has done it everywhere in the house, the last lady who said that, i told her to paper the whole laundry area and keep the pup in one area as when they are that young they don't know what is expected of them and are used to doing it on paper. i told the lady to watch body language of the pup and you will know when the pup wants to toilet, i also before the puppy went to her new home trained the pups to recognise the word "out" so when i said this they go out and urinate straight away. took a while to achieve this though say 3-7 months old. i'd say from your post the pup is used to toileting on newspaper and you've taken that away so now puppy is a bit confused about where to do it now. if it was me i'd bring back the newspaper and perhaps paper a whole area so she is doing it on nothing but the newspaper then bit by bit over a period of time say 3 weeks - a month gradually reduce the papered area, you will find they will do it on the area you paper, if they don't you repaper the area again and then gradually reduce the area again until they get it then when they can hold on a bit better usually 4-6 months old then you train to go "out" and toilet outside but in the meantime you do that now but with also the paper. this is how we've trained our babies with a lot of success. alot of breeders do put babies and mother in a pen in the house otherwise you would have dogs running everywhere but they don't confine them there all the time just when the mothers are nursing and when there are very young pups that you don't want to get battered by the mature adults. i don't know how many times people have said it is cruel to put pups and mother in a pen or a sick dog. if we didn't you'd have the others picking on the sick one or you can't have mother and babies in with the other dogs it disrupts milk supply etc etc. it is cruel to keep them there day in day out (like some have done in the past, the dogs have never been out of the pen! )

hmmm... not sure this is a great thing, he's missed the mark the premier of Victoria. how do they make the jump from illegal to legal, and mentioning petshops to get a pet, does he not read where petshops get their puppies from? once again no mention to the public at all where to buy a puppy, the better choice to source a pup from. once again advertising people going to petshops so contradicting themselves there already. in re: to advertising microchips - this is ridiculous, once again targetting anyone who breeds dogs not the ones they actually want to get rid off. how does this equate to getting rid of farms? if we had a system where it was compulsory to put breeder details on chip then i'd be more confident that we may have something, as many have already posted on here. this is a big scam from the government to try to get brownie points from the public for votes i wouldn't mind betting -giving them a false sense of doing something when actually they are doing nothing at all.

it just depends on the preference of the owner, my father used a harness for his toy dog for many years. I've used collars for most of my dogs and it hasn't ever caused an issue. if they are trained to walk by your side they wouldn't be pulling on their necks anyway. i didn't mention a harness, i was referring to collars causing damage which is highly unlikely, i have never seen or heard of a dogs neck being damaged by a collar. my breed and some toy breeds are more prone to collapsed trachea like chihuahuas because of the way they are shaped. often called the reverse sneeze. its just really the opinion of the individual as to what they want to buy for their pooch. i use a harness in the car that ties into the seatbelt for safety reasons to keep the dog in the car seat. Because i have mainly show dogs in my backyard, i tend to steer towards using leads rather than harnesses, with the chihuahuas they don't get walked for long periods of time they have their rather large backyard to exercise in and their outings to shows to socialise anyway. if i do walk them i also use a martingale lead, but not for puppies as they are generally too big for a pup, they have two metal pieces that come together on the dogs neck keeping the dog in place. also a safe alternative. good for training as well rather than using a metal check chain although some exhibitors use a snake chain instead.

im sorry but collars DO NOT cause collapsed trachea. genes do. im a breeder/exhibitor for 26 yrs of toy dogs here. cat collars - yes, most do have an elastic bit in them i have been advising my puppy buyers of this for a long time, and the dogs if walked on them they can slip out of them easily if they should suddenly get a fright outside their comfort zone as what happens occassionally. very dangerous. some have on here even suggested to buy a show lead but im sorry to say that they only have a metal clip to hold the dog in and even those are not safe to walk the toy dog in. seen many a dog run out of the showring and slip from the show lead so i wouldn't be advising people with young puppies to use those either. best bet is to go to either Kmart or Big W and get a collar that is made of weave elastic nylon and you can put the tongue in anywhere you want you don't have to make holes in the collar - very strong very good we have found. i could try to scan a pic of the collar to show people but i have used these for many years with no problem they are safe for little necks. think they are about 6-8 dollars but i have not bought one recently but have seen them in there not long ago still.

some of my buyers sometimes dont' want the pedigree, but the majority do, we don't breed all that much so have never sold a show potential puppy or dog, it gives the buyer security i suppose in the fact that they are buying a genuine pedigree and not some backyard job.

Brilliant!! I have written proof from another breeder also that confirmed my suspiscions on this breeder too, so that should back me up, along with my report of all other info the breeder gave me.. I am VERY blessed now, I have located an extremely reputable breeder and have a pup secured that I know is perfect and proper papers etc... Seriously, when I contacted the breeder who supplied this alleged "backyard" breeder - the breeder of the original sire & dam told me this person IS a backyarder!! how scary... I have been so upset about this .... I am writing now - with all info I know - this person HAS to be stopped!! what troy normally does is check to see if the person is registered with ANKC or the state bodies, if they are not they are removed. but it is unclear ??? in your post if they are breeding crosses and selling them as pures or if they are unregistered? taking the word of other people doesn't really help and going from person to person, what someone needs to do is check to see if the breeder is reg with the ANKC and state body. we had that with our breed club a few months back, everyone was going around saying one breeder was not registered with ANKC and was on DOL but upon checking they were indeed ANKC reg. so people can gossip incorrect information and then spread it everywhere when none of it is true in the first place. one person had a big problem with the breeder in question as they had from what i could make out, put false pedigrees of dogs they never had and claimed the dogs were their own dogs or in their own dogs bloodlines.

i dont' understand why they didn't just dart them then move them to a zoo, if the bengal tigers are rare or endangered. they said something along the lines of darting didn't work? and they called animal management people in, where from? why didn't they do something., poor poor animals they didn't deserve to die like that, the owner sounded like a looney tune and i agree, shouldn't have been allowed to house such rare or endangered species. was he breeding them up or just owned them?

hmmmphhh well there you go.

isn't commerical breeders and puppy farms the same thing, for me whether you choose to call them commercial enterprises - a nicer word than puppy mill or a puppy farm dont much matter, but basically for me they are both the same i.e. both breed for commercial gains or for $

no where does it mention that sometimes it can be due to genetics that a dog is timid too. put that theory to the test for years. all my dogs get raised the same and get socialised the same but i notice if i use a friendly dog over a friendly bitch i am more than likely to get friendly puppies. and vice versa happens if i use a timid bitch over a friendly dog, 50/50 chance i can get timid pups that have all been the raised the same and socialised the same but it is their temperament and nothing you can do about it even if you do go out and socialise like crazy. been doing this for many many years. so the moral of the story is, make sure you use good temperamented dogs to get good temperamented pups. i still think that lack of socialisation and interaction with humans goes hand in hand with lack of care breeding dogs and carefully selecting for health, harder to do with cross breeds too when whole families are unknown.. Large farms don't get to test out with humans if a dog is friendly or not because 9 times out of 10 they are in cages not interacting with humans their whole lives and this can sometimes make their bad temperament worse too and also the puppies they produce, so they are unable to test which dogs have good temperament and which dog hasn't.

Genuine question : Does this mean that any dog in a shelter showing any sign of (eg) HD doesn't get a chance to be re-homed? If that's the case, I don't agree with this. The animals from shelters are mandatorily desexed so it is not as though it is a genetic issue that will be able to be passed on. There are people out there who would like to look after dogs for as long as the dog is happy and able to live with some quality in its life. This is OT to the vein of the thread and I do not intend to swerve away from that as there is some very good intelligent and informative conversation going on here. (I love the questions Steve fires off .... really raises slants on things that many of us might not have seen unless challenged for the answers. Steve.) If there is a simple answer to my question though, there may not be a need to start a new thread on this and so, if no-one minds, I'll leave this here in anticipation of the answer. Thanks in anticipation. Erny i was meant to answer this ages ago but got way laid with a bitch going into labour and having sleepless nights for the last few. sorry to hijack this thread everyone is talking about rights now. so what if a dog does get HD and its been obtained from a shelter and it cost thousands of dollars to rectify, who pays? the shelter? or you. and watching my poor auntie's rotties go through this and as they got older it got to the stage where she had to put the dog down. these dogs were not bred by a breeder who tests their dogs just bred the rotts as lovely pets. if the shelter dog ends up with PRA which can be detected through tests when they get them in, who pays for that when the dog slowly goes blind and diagnosing it and vet fees etc etc.???? all shelter dogs are desexed so are not breeding dogs we all know that but some of them are victims those poor dogs of negligent people who thought they'd breed a lovely litter of puppies not stopping to think of those puppies lives in the future without testing their dogs they are breeding to give those pups a good quality of life. then they go to an owner who watches the dogs virtually die with a disease that could have been prevented 9 times out of 10 if the "breeder" and i use that term very loosely had of done tests, done a bit of research, (how much can you do on a cross bred dog mind you) then mostly its not perfect mother nature, but mostly these things can be avoided. for me its all about the dogs having a good quality of life able to enjoy good health and a long healthy life. and yes you do take a certain lottery with shelter dogs but buying the dog and sometimes now they are around $400 for a mutt of any description from the local pound or shelter with all shots, and all work done.....i think you have a right to expect that its at least had all health checks that they can possibly do, so you don't have any surprises and forking out thousands of dollars on your acquired pet in years to come from a herediatary disease. i mean if you beloved pet does fall ill you are going to spend that money to make them better, i would in a heart beat on my rescue bitsa( but because none of these tests were carried out on him like HD or anything else i don't know if he will be 100% healthy - just take it as it comes. like everyone else does with shelter and.or rescue dogs of no description.

looking at what our family do for our dogs, i make decisions based on what is best for my dogs not for my hip pocket or fashions or what others will think of me. so we desex any of our dogs or pups that leaves our premises as someone else said in this thread they have been burnt all to often like us. example if not desexed, people will ring up and say they just want a pet then go and breed the dog, one lady in the beginning when i was very green said she wanted to breed the 2 bitches i sold her stupidly. a few years later going back to see how the dogs were doing i found several under weight pups and the pup she gave me was full of worms not vacc, and she was breeding these poor bitches every season for money. then one of the bitches was left to wander the neighborhood and got run over, i blame myself for the poor choice of home for those dogs. the other was given to a friend that was going to put the dog over a JR so i tried to buy the dog back but even though you could see these people were only interested in the money these dogs could give them being bred were not really looked after well, they refused to give up the dog even though i offered more money than they paid me. after that, i never sell undesexed dogs only to people that will allow me to guide them and breed responsibly not with puppy farm intentions im sorry to say. other scenarios have been: buyers say "we will get the dog desexed" you could very well tell the people had no intentions! another one lied about where the dog was going (found out by ringing up the person they put down in paperwork, what dog? they said) in order to try and breed the bitch that i sold as a pet. found out they couldn't after having several go's so gave the dog away to the first person they could find which happened to be a responsible home which now we keep in contact with. dog died of old age and had a happy life after all that. we tried the contract thing but it didn't work, people either just disappeared off the face of the earth rather than coming back for a desexing voucher or we even tried witholding papers, (american breeders ideas they swore it would work) or ppl would breed the dogs anyway after you putting on contract PET ONLY. then i rang up to see how the dog was going and owner told me to sod off and mind my own business she can breed the dog if she wants. so we do it for protection of our dogs not for our own benefit, the only way we can be assured that the person is genuinely only intersted in a pet and not a breeding machine to make money off is to get our dogs desexed before they leave our homes. And then sometimes not even getting all the $ back that we spend on the dogs when we keep them for 7 months or up until 2-3 years of age, as unfortunately in today's society you can't really trust too many its a sad fact and some ppl are very good at telling porkies to get what they want they will stop at nothing. as my grandmother always says, once they leave your hands you have no control over what happens. so you do your best to get the right home where they will be a pet and not a breeding machine.

i witnessed a near dumping one day, this lady had a terrier cross running beside her little car as she was driving along, the dog looked frantic to get back in the car but she kept on driving slowly beside the dog, you could tell she was the owner as it was running looking at the car. she got out and thats when i drove around the corner where i could see what she was doing but she couldn't see me then she got out of the car and grabbed the dog and drove away, by that stage i was seriously thinking if she dumped the dog i would go around and see if i could coax the dog into my car and i didn't have a plan after that. i tried to follow her but she put her foot down and disappeared out of view. i was driving home from the train station and saw all this going on infront of me, but why on earth would you let your dog run along beside your car and drive slowly, i thought that maybe she tried to dump the dog but the dog was following her so she had a change of mind or something, it was very strange to watch. some people are so callous and unfortunately thats the way our society is going, everything is disposable too much i fear and our pets are a common victim. i hope that this person is caught and made to pay i dont think them reading the letter will make them feel any remorse at all as that kind of a person wouldn't have feelings to be able to do all that in the first place

read the article, i have to say that is the biggest piece of BS i've ever read. pedigree breeders are jealous, jealous of what? so many statements i could mention that aren't true about pedigree breeders, its all about advertising how nice these dogs are - so the PM could have read this and what a pretty picture it does paint eh. but no one stopped to think about testing for PRA, HD, (rotties can suffer from this if not tested, my auntie bought two and both ended up with horrendous HD because none of the breeding dogs were tested for HD was from a backyarder). valleyview is putting spoodle to spoodle or oodle to oodle. no mention of follow up all the pups they breed which is thousands it is physically impossible to follow up adult dogs they have bred with owners breeding that many dogs, i heard it was around 2000 a year! and see what genetic problems generations suffer from. if you are interested in what you breed claiming they are healthy you'd be interested in following up to improve. and make it your business. ugh there is so much to mention i'd be here all day. most of that article is just untrue crap. we are not all snobs, i love all dogs no matter if it is a cross bred MONGREL or not. i have one myself atm and have in the past owned mutts!!! ETA: he was actually addressing me on facebook and he is a nasty nasty man, and thats all they have to prove to people they are better, hybrid vigour, if you know anything and most obviously they don't, you can't get vigour until you have a long line of proven and tested and researched sound dogs and i know they can't possibly do that breeding anything to anything and pedigree breeders breed sick dogs brother to sister for the showring?? when i know that is not the case at all. he was spouting that off to me on facebook, what crap, they don't know the first thing any of them what a breeder does in order to produce healthy happy dogs - the money we do spend we are entitled to get that back at least to make ends meet? i can't see them testing but why would they when they said so themselves people just want a fluffy dog of any description and willing to pay almost $2000 because of the ignorance. and that other woman....words fail me, anyone can be called a "breeder" these days, just get two dogs with ANKC papers breed them together. a breeder is so much more than what these reporters are making it all out to be. and ofcourse still, the whole story about educating the public didn't get out there once again - silence from our side of the story. they probably cut the ped breeders statements off to suit themselves and make it look like we are all snobs anyway. and......they think its funny to pit one group against another do they. and to spout off what we are saying and what we do and what we think. all in all what most pedigree breeders object to in all of this is the destruction of our purebreeds that have evolved sometimes thousands of years with mankind and to say cross bred mutts that have been here for aprox. 20 yrs are better than the original when there is no scientific proof just rumour is utterly ridiculous when you know dogs - all dogs not just purebred pitted against mutt.

i know many of you said that these oodle breeders are only breeding first cross but what if a few of them aren't. i mean to say, that maybe if they bred a spoodle with another spoodle mixing up the PRA genes and then they could match up better. someone said here that they get alot of spoodles or oodle dogs with PRA and other genetic problems coming into their clinic. just a thought.

I am a reg breeder and also show my dogs and i always wanted to save a rescue cross dog (desexed), so i got an oppotunity to do this 5 years ago. i know that some of you said that you would never consider a rescue owning purebred dogs but there are some people that would, even having reg pedigrees and i know of many ANKC exhibitors/breeders that also take in rescues of any description and rehome them as well. I think when they say rescue a dog rather than buying from a commercial puppy farm/dog breeding facility they are mostly referring to the pet owning public and as my dog proves not all cast offs make rotten pets as some people believe this to be the case, they are in the pound, rescue organisations etc. because they are a problem. round and round we go again on the merry go round. i think many have not woken up to the fact yet that when you protest about "puppy farms" you are actually protesting about all breeders as the animal rights people do not know enough about the dog world (know that one for a fact speaking to one of them myself), they are spouting off about how a dog should be bred but really it begs the question do they all believe that no dog should be bred at all no breeders so where will they get their dogs from when the shelters and pounds dry up because they want to ban all breeding of dogs no matter if you are an ethical ANKC breeder or a backyard breeder or a commercial dog facility breeding oodles it is all the same to them. there is no defining, all the commercial dog breeding facilities all according to them treat their dogs like crap and they all breed for money. this is what steve and others are trying to tell you all. and my gosh, i knew that surname sounded familiar, is this person also a VCA breeder breeding pedigrees? but i think he stated somewhere he wants to breed oodles too. although all the stuff im reading is getting mixed up with the animal rights people statements. when they protest like this they are still not giving the public other options clearly of what they can do to not support large scale breeders like this. once again, it may be deterring "farmers" applying for permits etc. but it is show casing to the public not to buy from these places and not to buy from petshops. sure, protesting wont get them anywhere as VCAT has made their decision. i still believe ultimately it will be changed attitudes with the public in maybe years to come that will stop these large scale facilities- i can only hope, and yes, if we make laws where it makes it harder for these large facilities to make a buck becasue they have to test all their stock and breed to a certain standard then this i believe could be their downfall but animal rights groups do not know enough about the dogworld to bring about that change about testing etc etc. groups like MDBA and ANKC etc will have to help in that. i read that ANKC is now stating that they want a law brought in that RSPCA need to test their dogs for PRA, HD and other genetic problems to ensure the public is getting a healthy dog. so thats the start of a small step. i think all these ppl are protesting about people "farming" animals on a large scale when healthy dogs die in pounds it is such a waste of life. i mean i agree but also we need to look at the big picture. and they have gone after reg ANKC breeders too, claiming this and that and the other - ANKC breeders have gone after ANKC breeders setting animal people on to each other. so i think to myself after talking to them watching them for a long time. reading and listening to conversations in the background, that really they are looking to me like they want to shut down ALL BREEDERS no matter what you do ethically or not, and to stop breeding full stop as they see it all as cruel - to trespass onto people's property and do it under the umbrella as "saving animals". So what is stopping them coming into my property or your property and claiming we aren't looking after our dogs, we have too many (what number they define as too many?) and then stealing our show dogs our good breeding dogs? all under the umbrella of saving dogs and all they have to do is say "puppy farmer" then they get the public on their side? we will have no hope in hell. PDE has not been our friend, now everyone is quoting sentences out of this stupid program. now all ANKC breeders who breed and show their dogs are evil and cruel in some of the public's eyes. no matter what you say you do, look after your animals or are an ethical breeder we are all the same in their eyes even if you do rescue yourself you can still be a "puppy farmer" in their eyes.. we are all liars and cheats and out to treat our animals like crap if you breed dogs full stop.

Unless of course, both breeds carry recessive genes for genetically identical PRA. You know, breeds like Labradors and Poodles. :cool: Yes thank you I thought I was covering that but was only discussing risk factors for these two breeds with PRA. edited to ad so its easier for everyone to understand the PRA gene in cavs is c-PRA in mini and toy poodles its prcd-PRA . In lab x poodle its prcd- PRA in both so anyone breeding them would need to test - but you can only test if they are registered. Other words in this particular recessive - PRA depending on whether or not the two breeds are known to have the same kind of PRA some cross breeds are more rather than less likely to show up than it is in purebreds though in the cav x poodle chances are remote. forgot about PRA having x-linked and Prcd, it said cocker can have that type but in cavs it doesn't actually list what type that breed can get. Poodles i didn't see poodles either. so i see that they have to match up in order for PRA to be expressed. im rather talking about patella luxation although we cannot as yet DNA test for the gene its just a matter of feeling for it, it would help if we could but they are saying we cant' and never will be able to. and i guess thats the same as PL's cousin HD.