toy*dog

Agree with this Steve. Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests. This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder. Ground hog day - What is a puppy farmer? yep

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy. See this is what I dont want to have to do. You dont need to test your breeding dogs for things which are only known to be a problem in one breed for recessive disorders. So a first cross dog is unlikely to get something like PRA. If you are breeding Cavs you would still need to check for heart problems and Sm and LP ,HD etc because you only need one parent to have these issues and of course knowing the lines and what the ancestors had in these diseases is a huge advantage because they skip a generation etc. Im not saying they dont need to test for anything. Im saying there are some things which we need to test for and we need to be worried about that they dont. the chances the dog will get PRA is remote that isnt saying the chances it will develop some other polygenic disorder isnt higher than it is with breeders who know their lines and test their dogs. thats weird because i have a book on genes and it said that in order to get a recessive gene come through you need 2 carriers from both sides of the pedigree in order for the genetic problem to express itself. and i've come to the conclusion thats how we were able to get away with most of our dogs bar one with zero grades in their patellas. then we started mixing bloodlines and there started to be alot of unknowns in the pedigree and thats when i got that dog with grade 3. if you only have one parent affected it cannot be expressed it states it clearly i guess there are all different views on it maybe. i will have to find that again and i will put it up here but it will have to be tonight. not unless i can find it on the net with some reference to it from the book. eTA: im sure its in one of hilary harmers books although it could be in the others i've got about 5-6 different books on breeding dogs.

Agree with this Steve. Just looked through the puppy listing on DOL for my breed and as usual was Heaps of 'puppy farmers' merrily posting on there. And they do the health tests. This thread has helped clarify for me what I expect in a breeder. what one persons definition of a puppy farmer is, is anothers ones definition of a good breeder. just had that issue with one breeder that has been dobbed into the animal welfare people by another breeder. so some in the breed club are saying this breeder is not a puppy farmer and others are saying they are.

im going to have to agree to disagree with you there. if you don't test your breeding dogs how do you know what you are breeding? you could be breeding in any number of genetic problems. and i know that some reg breeders don't test and i know that purebreds can suffer with diseases just like crossed DD's can. and yes we breed for alot more than health we also have to consider type, and the working breeds have to consider working ability as well. whereas they don't have to do any of those things just breed a pup of any description call it a unique name that is fluffy bung on the high price thats it easy peasy.

i believe i was just trying to explain my experience and just trying to get to the bottom of why DD is not a good choice trying to go another avenue with the science of breeding to use in a productive what i thought, debate. if we can't get them on the care, the profit, health, there is nothing much left. so what are you saying we should just accept that DD puppy farms are here to stay and not fight for the animals being bred en masse this way. wipe out the pedigree dog in the future after sometimes thousands of years evolution. my own breed they were saying is about 4000 years old. i wasn't trying to say how bloody wonderful my dogs or I were, if i have created that impression i apologise, i was using myself as an example and just sharing my experiences of what i've encountered in my life with dogs which started as a small child. i don't really understand what you have written here TBQH. i thought we wanted to create a plausible counter argument there are many wonderful people in the dogworld. and i think to myself that thank god there are breeders around who are breeding wonderful examples of our purebreed dogs because quite frankly all these DD farms sprouting up all over the place makes me feel threatened and i worry for purebreds who are a dying race as you say there are only 4000 breeders australia-wide? and that is very worry-some. and very sad. anyhow i must go got heaps of work to do. toy dog I wasnt addressing you personally I mean on the whole - everyone . oh okay, on the defensive today. LOL

Fair enough I have to get on with my day, too. Thanks for your interesting contribution. Seeya and im still here stuck in limbo somewhere

It is a lottery with any animal with its health. Yes there are some things that you can test for but they are living creatures and there is a whole heap of stuff that can go wrong with them. The only thing I would say is a lottery with a DD is what the coat is going to be like and what size they end up. as i said before many times testing is a tool that not enough breeders use true, but it should be used IMO with research and there is some amount of success this way. and this is not what farmers are doing 9 times out of 10 as i have grown up with several of them (unfortunately living in puppy farm central and they being locals) i know what they don't do adn what dogs they are using not great examples. steve touched on putting two breeds together more than likely you would get healthy dogs well what i know and what i have seen for many years she is talking about hybrid vigour, which only happens if both parents and their families are healthy and sound to begin with. it has this same info on DOL home page. i find it hard to believe that the DD's stuck in farms have a family full of sound healthy dogs and before i had pedigrees my mother actually did have cross breeds they were known as mongrels in those days (1970's) and they even had their problems. Poodle crosses. accidental mating with pups unfortunatley. yes all dogs can have health issues but its not about the dogs its about the people that breed them breeding them irresponsibly IMO not taking care to produce healthy pups.

huh? wahat? Meanwhile the govt said we need more people from other countries to help populate our country as Australia has many unpopulated areas, work in melbourne and you will see this argument supported. i think thats one persons opinion somehow living in the sticks somewhere. You see just bunch of loonies and rednecks - scary thing is some of them are vets. we can really say anything at all on the net can't we and they do, everyone is an authority these days simply because it is written on the god damn internet.

nope not at all, it might not get sick at all she might be lucky, we might not hear any more about it once the dog is brought home, i wouldnt' like to wish that on any animal however as we've been saying for a while now, it is a lottery with a DD as to the health status isn't it. the focus is more on the farmer not the dog itself. but anyhow need to go,spent way too much time on here not getting any work done which is very naughty of me

i believe i was just trying to explain my experience and just trying to get to the bottom of why DD is not a good choice trying to go another avenue with the science of breeding to use in a productive what i thought, debate. if we can't get them on the care, the profit, health, there is nothing much left. so what are you saying we should just accept that DD puppy farms are here to stay and not fight for the animals being bred en masse this way. wipe out the pedigree dog in the future after sometimes thousands of years evolution. my own breed they were saying is about 4000 years old. i wasn't trying to say how bloody wonderful my dogs or I were, if i have created that impression i apologise, i was using myself as an example and just sharing my experiences of what i've encountered in my life with dogs which started as a small child. i don't really understand what you have written here TBQH. i thought we wanted to create a plausible counter argument there are many wonderful people in the dogworld. and i think to myself that thank god there are breeders around who are breeding wonderful examples of our purebreed dogs because quite frankly all these DD farms sprouting up all over the place makes me feel threatened and i worry for purebreds who are a dying race as you say there are only 4000 breeders australia-wide? and that is very worry-some. and very sad. anyhow i must go got heaps of work to do.

well i've come across the opposite pretty much everyone i know that has bought a DD has said they'll go to a "proper" breeder i.e. a reg breeder with my help. and its OMG puppy farms i didn't know anything about them before i got my pup. and OMG i don't want to contribute to that. i will just be interested if the dog does end up with any genetic defect but i doubt too that we will hear about it, and i do agree that the farm will have probably covered themselves anyway. it was a long shot but just thinking out loud.

huh? wahat? Meanwhile the govt said we need more people from other countries to help populate our country as Australia has many unpopulated areas, work in melbourne and you will see this argument supported. i think thats one persons opinion somehow living in the sticks somewhere.

I actually don't know any oodles that have had problems and I imagine that I got/get to see more of them then the average dog owner as a groomer and obedience instructor. Know a shitload of purebred dogs with serious problems though so really that isn't a good argument. Billabong actually offers a 1 year health guarantee so if the pup has a problem on its first birthday it may be covered. many years ago having a friend that wanted to show and breed cavs, this breed was fashionable then and there were many cavs around bred poorly and had many genetic problems i.e. heart, Patella lux etc. but what i've found is that certain breeds get overbred because of being popular so the purebreeds that you saw could have been a product of that fashion, the farm where K Rudd suposedly got his pooch from i see they also have purebreds, although i'd say probably not really good examples of any breed. So in the same boat as a DD really. hope you get where im coming from. in the late 70's it was afghans they were the most popular dog everyone bred them to get more money, now you very rarely see this dog. im hoping with DD's that they will also faze out and go the same way. im hoping beyond hope really aren't i. i think its been about 15 years so far and they are still here. and the net i see getting on the net in '97 when there weren't many breeders around then there were some but not a whole lot, has done nothing to curb this DD craze infact its fueled it.

I actually don't know any oodles that have had problems and I imagine that I got/get to see more of them then the average dog owner as a groomer and obedience instructor. Know a shitload of purebred dogs with serious problems though so really that isn't a good argument. Billabong actually offers a 1 year health guarantee so if the pup has a problem on its first birthday it may be covered. well thats going to be interesting if the pup ends up with a inherited disease they offer to replace it, and i know of many owners who are attached to the dog by then so don't want it replaced or they offer their money back but that still doesn't address the problem that the owner has a sick dog and even if breeder says give the money back, sometimes the owner still isn't very happy with the breeder afterwards as the breeder sold them a dog that eventually got sick, it sometimes does nothing towards the attitude of the buyer offering an olive branch, been on the end of that and so has many other breeders, i should explain in reference to PL. so its going to be very interesting what transpires!

found this from DPI website: im trying to find the legislation that was passed in Vic a few years ago about the breeding of dogs and knowingly breeding a dog with a disease you are liable. can't find it. can anyone help me? Operation of Dog and Cat Breeding Establishments Legislation Under the provisions of the Domestic Animals Act 1994 any person who runs an enterprise (being a business) for profit (whether the business makes a profit is irrelevant) that breeds dogs and/or cats, that person must register their premises as a domestic animal business with their local council before they can operate. While this type of business is known as a breeding and/or rearing establishment, some members of the public call these businesses “puppy farms” or “puppy mills”. Council domestic animal business registration is an annual process and Councils are required to report the number of domestic animal businesses registered with them to the State Government annually. Dog and/or cat breeding establishment proprietors must operate in accord with the mandatory Code of Practice established by the State Government for the purpose of providing minimum standards of accommodation, management and care which are considered appropriate to the welfare, physical and behavioural needs of the animals housed at these establishments. In the case of a breeding establishment the mandatory Code is known as the ‘Code of Practice for the Operation of Breeding and Rearing Establishments’. A person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice. Breeding establishment proprietor responsibilities Proprietors of breeding establishments must provide for the well being of all the animals kept at their establishment. They are responsible for supervision of staff, collation of records relating to breeding, the supervision of appropriate feeding programs, maintaining a high level of hygiene at their premises and ensuring veterinary care for the animals kept at the establishment. Proprietors of breeding establishments can only offer animals for sale that have been vaccinated at least fourteen days prior to sale and must on sale or giving away an animal ensure the animal is implanted with a microchip. The proprietor must notify the Council in which the animal is to be kept of the name, address and microchip number of the animal sold from or given away from their premises. Proprietors must provide literature to a person who purchases animals from them; this literature must include information on responsible pet ownership, appropriate housing and feeding. The proprietor must also provide a guarantee to the purchaser stating that if the animal is unacceptable for any reason that the animal can be returned within three days for a 75% refund of the purchase price or an offer of an animal of equal value with the same guarantee. Also within seven days, the proprietor must provide a similar guarantee on health grounds if supported by documentation from a veterinarian that the animal is sick after purchase. If the animal dies or is euthanased due to a disease traceable to point of sale, the proprietor must refund the purchase price or offer a replacement animal with the same guarantee. Council responsibilities Council must register breeding establishments to allow them to operate and should conduct annual audits or regular inspections to ensure these proprietors are operating their establishment in accord with the mandatory Code of Practice. Council should follow up on the registration of animals purchased from breeding establishments as they must be notified by the proprietor of the establishment when an animal sold from their business is expected to be kept in that municipal district. If you have an issue with the operation of a breeding establishment in your area As the council is responsible for registering and authorising the operation of breeding establishments, you should report any concerns you may have to the Council for their action. Council may expect you to provide the information in writing to provide them with ‘reasonable grounds’ to investigate your claims. Council has Authorised Officers that have the power to enter breeding establishments on reasonable grounds and at reasonable times to investigate the compliance of these establishments with the Act and mandatory Code of Practice. If the breeding establishment is unregistered the Council can prosecute the proprietor for operating an unregistered breeding establishment, this offence carries a penalty of 10 penalty units in the Magistrates Court. Also, if the proprietor sells an animal from an unregistered premise this is also an offence which carries a penalty of 10 penalty units in court. If the breeding establishment proprietor is not operating their business in accord with the mandatory Code of Practice, Council Officers can issue infringements or file charges in the Magistrates Court. Each breach carries a penalty of up to 10 penalty units in court.

I found the oodles pretty easy to groom. That is the poodle x spaniels. Lab x just took ages because of the size. All the owners wanted them clipped off. Didn't have any that wanted to keep a long coat. The SWF were a frigging nightmare. I also found the oodles to have better temperaments. Didn't have any try to have a go at me. Unlike the SWF. Same with teaching them obedience. I way prefer the oodle crosses to the SWF crosses. so a small white fluffy can be maltese, shitzu, lhasa and what else?? where as oodles are ofcourse poodle crosses. oh okay, that is interesting.

im not trying to judge anyone i am just genuinely interested in what, particularly BCF who are show casing themselves to everyone now, do when they do breed a sick dog that clearly is a result of a genetic problem in their "stock". i know that most of the time pups are bred blindly, and even in some cases the same stud is used on a wide gene pool and then perhaps there is a need to inbreed several times not just once which is very dangerous given that they ARE breeding blindly. in my experience inbreeding should only take place if you know the bloodlines thoroughly. where would they get studs from. but anyway genetics and breeding is a very hard thing to do if you want to produce sound healthy dogs and its a hit and miss project taking many years to accomplish.

i don't know about that unless there is some literature around that has proven that to be the case, has anyone proven that with results? you'd have to breed crosses to find out i suppose but i believe myself that my understanding is PRA is PRA there's not all different types of the one disease so 2 dogs on 2 sides of the family have PRA regardless of their breed bang then you get it expressed in one pup or several pups. maybe someone would be able to shed more light on this. No they couldnt just say one day we can now identify PRA in all breeds - they had to find the specific genes which are different and peculiar to each breed .This is why there are over 100 breeds but only about a quarter so far have DNA available for PRA . So if you had 2 poodles where PRA is noted as a large potential problem in the breed who were carriers or affected you can get affected pups but its not that much of a big deal in cavs and the specific gene is unlikely to be in both breeds.Even if both parents had PRA the chances of the pups getting PRA on a first cross is very remote and wouldnt justify a need to test either parent for the purposes of breeding. However, if later on the PM's dog did turn out to have PRA that would mean the breeder has bred carriers or affected dogs and would be looking at a gaol term as they bred them in Victoria. yes! there's a law now about i think it is, knowingly breeding dogs with health problems or something to that effect, can never remember the exact wording have to do a search for it. have the farmers considered that, what happens if the PM's dog gets a heart problem, or PRA or severe grade 3-4 patella lux or even HD, what happens then i wonder?

According to our health survey and that we are talking about a poddle cross cav and PRA the chances are remote that PRA would be a problem. However SM, mitrio valve desease, luxating patellas - high risk. Higher risk than in a purebred pup whose parents have been tested. It can however have up to 69 different coat combinations. groomers say it is often a nightmare a DD's coat? it has different textures in it, so i guess some would have non-shedding and shedding coat mixed in as well on the same dog.

According to our health survey and that we are talking about a poddle cross cav and PRA the chances are remote that PRA would be a problem. However SM, mitrio valve desease, luxating patellas - high risk. Higher risk than in a purebred pup whose parents have been tested. It can however have up to 69 different coat combinations. well that is a good point, we have had surveys for pedigrees i know MDBA did a survey for health across all breeds, but it is difficult to survey cross breeds and particularly dogs and crosses from these farms but going on what i know that are problems with our pedigrees and farmers having F1 crosses that all the things we deal with they'd have to deal with too. Its not necessary to produce pups that are healthy as most people when the pups are young don't know and also some genetic problems only come out when the dog is mature. i mean what do these farmers do when they get buyers coming back with a sick dog? or do the buyers bother coming back. sometimes buyers don't want the 3rd degree they say from reg breeders so get a pup from a farm or shop where they aren't asked any questions so go on their merry way never to be heard from again i suppose. so maybe they dont' come back and make the farmer accountable. dont know what goes on.

i don't know about that unless there is some literature around that has proven that to be the case, has anyone proven that with results? you'd have to breed crosses to find out i suppose but i believe myself that my understanding is PRA is PRA there's not all different types of the one disease so 2 dogs on 2 sides of the family have PRA regardless of their breed bang then you get it expressed in one pup or several pups. maybe someone would be able to shed more light on this.

most breeders as in, reg breeders? not farmers with crosses i presume thats what you are talking about.

do you mean PL? or LP as some call it or there's other names as well. yes to a certain degree it can be pologenic as well but recessive in my experience is much stronger. for instance, i have treated my dogs all the same but some can end up with grade 4 (one of our first bitches had grade 4 from another breeder so she was desexed and not bred from despite breeder telling me to breed it out, cannot be bred out) some dogs can end up being sound and that is well into their old age as well. (keep testing). so some breeders use pure pologenic as an excuse to breed said dog saying it did its knee in and the dog just chooses to walk like that!! one breeder kept saying that about all their dogs that clearly had PL (can sometimes see it in gait but most cases you have to check dog or get a vet to check and grade) some breeders convince themselves its not hereditary so breed it into the lines then you get recessive and in some cases very strong too. done experiments and to a certain degree PL can be controlled but not cured from stable exercise and also diet and good enviroment but the dog still has PL as graded and this is the problem not many breeders are grading and still using dogs as in toys and i've bred other breeds of toys it is very common. think i may have hijacked this thread but i'm trying to highlight the fact that farmers would find it difficult but they tell pollies and councils and buyers that they have sound dogs which given my experience would be highly unlikely.

i think this is a very good definiation and this is what i've been trying to say all along in my long drawn out ramblings on. Steve said: im sorry but im going to have to disagree with that based on my experience with recessive the mongrel thing that it is, for instance, dealing with patella luxation for about 20 plus years now and it is relatively easy to have but one dog in the bloodline on either side to be effected then it can be expressed in the pups not all but one and it happens to be the one you want to keep! i should explain that in order to get a recessive come through and be expressed, both sides of the bloodline or family need to have the gene - if there is one dog on one side of the pedigree/family affected then it cannot be expressed. i think it is highly unlikely myself that these crosses from goodness knows where would have both sides of the family sound given that its an uphill battle with known generations and still getting dogs with genetic problems on the odd occassion and moving into pedigrees that you don't know and is possible to research and test. give example for years, i only bred 0 to 0 and because only one side that i knew right back to 5 gen was sound the other side didn't matter so for about 15 yrs (yes its unbelievable i know but it did happen) we didn't get any higher grades than zero even checking dogs at 10-12 years old, other breeders said we were talking crap but we'd get them checked regularly by several vets not just one. anyway about 3 years ago we had a one pup litter and that pup developed grade 3 patella lux in one leg. the other was sound as a bell. tracked back and found the affending dogs that had been stuck into the pedigree through videos and photos and older breeders accounts. so patella lux is fairly common though it just begs the question whether PRA and heart problems in cockerspaniels, poodles and the other breeds they use to cross is also common enough to be able to have it on both sides of the family, i know that poodles can suffer from patella lux and also HD? so there is lots of genetic problems that all those breeds can suffer from and if they are not screening these farmers which i don't think they'd bother given that it takes alot of time and money and it cuts into their profit margin when they can just produce any cross from any dog and get $1800 for them from people who also have no idea how to produce a healthy dog. anyway thats what my mother and me have dealt with for 20 plus years and we still not there its a hit and miss thing with recessives. so in my heart i know farmers wouldn't be doing all that we do, no way in hell.

Aahh, that is the question isn't it? I would think that if a place is being run for the keeping and breeding of animals for commercial purposes then it is a farm. So if the 'farm' animals happen to be dogs does that make it a puppy farm? I guess in the strict sense of the word it does. If it is kept clean and tidy and complying with all the relevant rules and regulations then it is a perfectly legal business and attacking the 'farmers' just makes us look like fanatics in the eyes of the general public. I don't really know the answer to the question to be honest, it's a bit like - what is a backyard breeder? i think oscar law/animal rights groups are going down the line of they are dirty places and they don't look after their dogs, we in here are going on about breeding blindly not doing health testing. some puppy farms are clean and appear to be looking after their dogs and have staff etc etc. trainers are taking the line that dogs can't and don't get enough socialisation and stimulation required to produce a well rounded dog.