toy*dog

thats how i read it when i saw it i got in to the site and i thought this would be a good vehicle for someone yes, with an axe to grind with either their neighbors or someone they don't like. dangerous stuff.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years. where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state. i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across. there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it. anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject. Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ? You hit the nail on the head, we already have the legislation and the means to shut down those who are not abiding by POCTAA, why in the hell do we need a vigilante group saying " dob someone in to us ? We already have the RSPCA, Cops and Councils, whose job it is , to recieve reports and investigate. Since when do we need a group like " Socares" to make third hand complaints ? It just further muddies the water. oscar law people are claiming that the law isn't good enough and is not administered and in some cases it isn't. RSPCA claimed they could only get to the dogs when they were almost dead so they went and changed it so they had more power so i wonder if its made a difference since we have a new liberal govt in vic who claimed they were going to change the laws to prosecute these sorts of farms. ETA: they are claiming that authorities turn a blind eye to the suffering they have saved many animals that were govt approved facilities and when they bring the cameras in the farms are dirty with dirty ungroomed dogs running around in their own faeces and poo & wee stained walls and RSPCA are involved to seize these dogs and get them out of there. like the raid that happened with chris brown who went with animal libs to a farm in gippsland. the many farms they have down there. they said it was a govt licenced puppy farm yet when they brought the cameras in you could clearly see it was bad. so they claim they are checking but how do we know they actually are? if there are still farms around like this. how do they exist who is turning a blind eye? that one i mentioned council has tried for years to shut that farm down but have not succeeded as in the eyes of the law they aren't doing anything wrong are they. they have a licence. no one can prove that they actually put the dogs down with a vet present can they.

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road.

okay they are saying they are one of 5 key organisations that advise the government. why are they saying that if it didn't happen. maybe it is 2 completely different things i am talking about here. i don't know then who is the other 4 that advise the government they gave us a run down of what the government regularly asks DogsVictoria too. detailed questions. can't remember exactly what it was about this was about a year ago now.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up. Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either. i've had kids come up to our dogs at dog shows running around wild and yelling and screaming and poke their fingers into the dogs cages and expect the dogs to be friendly when they are scaring the crap out of our little dogs and our breed doesn't like their territory being compromised by fingers who are hitting out, poking eyes out and what not . if my dogs bark then they are called nasty dogs but they are reacting to the kids running and jumping and getting excited. i've had to say don't do that please, you don't poke your fingers into strange dogs pens without asking permission of the owner. usually the parents are no where in sight either then if they see that its those dogs are nasty they are barking . gets me a bit some people have no idea. I know a breeder who locks her dogs up at night because she feels that stops any barking and it is more secure for them. They run the property all day unless they are having puppies and they are then confined to a pen to keep them safe. If someone were to come in with torches sneaking around in the night the dogs would react and it could be made to look like the dogs were always "locked up" rather than simply put to bed. I also know a registered breeder who has placed pick handles at every doorway and entrance who swears if anyone comes onto his property he will beat them and will gladly do time over it if need be. He has been visited 20 plus times over the years by RSPCA due to vexatious complaints and passed every inspection. thats exactly what i've been thinking of late about that breeder i know ANKC reg that got dobbed in by a puppy purchaser who saw dogs in a pen and a few dogs (small toy dogs often get housed together quite happily in a pen in breeders houses). and everyone got on the band wagon including other breeders meanwhile those same breeders do the exact same things and keep their dogs the exact same way. i often think if someone came into my property and saw my dogs inside they'd think i never let them out which is not the case at all!! thats why i am careful who i invite in and i always make sure the place is spotlessly clean so they have no reason to dob me in but these days you just don't know who is watching and waiting who simply might have a grudge on you for something completely different not even related to dogs. i mean we all know there was an ANKC breeder that sold a pup and that buyer went to a vet who then dobbed the breeder in! there's that angle too. awful awful stuff. these other people sure had a beef with this breeder and made the fact known to anyone that would listen. i was appauled. it was nasty and it scared the crap out of us, breeders picking on other breeders because they dont' like each other. dobbing each other in. nasty nasty stuff. i just wondered whose turn it is next. heard over the years of court cases involved breeder against breeder too. doesn't put us all in a good light does it?

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years. where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state. i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across. there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it. anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject.

do they? because it was leaked who was actually members and there were all these notorious farms including one i know very well to not treat their dogs too well and have been raided because of not treating dogs too well. I personally know the person and have grown up knowing this person and i know how they treat their dogs like crap. So if they do do checks they don't do it very well or turn a blind eye.

they'll have the cameras on them proving the bad puppy farmer keeps unsocilised dogs. Or breaching the mandatory code by not keeping them locked up. Maremmas are pretty unsocialised too in the middle of the night and wont respond to treats either. i've had kids come up to our dogs at dog shows running around wild and yelling and screaming and poke their fingers into the dogs cages and expect the dogs to be friendly when they are scaring the crap out of our little dogs and our breed doesn't like their territory being compromised by fingers who are hitting out, poking eyes out and what not . if my dogs bark then they are called nasty dogs but they are reacting to the kids running and jumping and getting excited. i've had to say don't do that please, you don't poke your fingers into strange dogs pens without asking permission of the owner. usually the parents are no where in sight either then if they see that its those dogs are nasty they are barking . gets me a bit some people have no idea.

no you are wrong i don't believe that, i've been around for quite a few years and no i don't believe that at all that being reg is somehow special. when i do happen to mention to people that have no idea about reg ANKC breeders i always say someone that is ethical i.e. does testing, has healthy dogs tries his or hers best to breed healthy dogs and it is harder to do that with a cross because they have no pedigrees to work off and research bloodlines that may be affected with genetic problems. so no i don't blanket ANKC breeders as somehow magical human beings that know what to do and how to do it as i've said many times, there are puppy farmers in our ranks as well and it is in the best interests of buyers to screen their breeders and ofcourse vice versa of breeders too.

well im not saying it others are that have no inside info about breeding and owning dogs really not as involved as what you or I are. i guess they are meaning, if everyone was registered with a body that actually does checks like they think councils do.... thats a whole different story, then we can stamp out puppy farms. i dunno only assuming here. but i've had so many people say this to me when i discuss about puppy farms and ANKC breeders and petshops etc. etc.

I look at that site every so often but yes i missed that. that is awful and gives us all a bad name im sorry to say. those poor little dogs. DogsVictoria were asking members (some members came to us to tell us) about the amount of litters some breeders were having and why they were breeding them. some were boohooing it all but you're damned if you do nothing and your damned if you do something, dogsvictoria cant seem to get it right with any members but what do you do about all this its really a losing battle. don't know what that will do asking members why so many litters, they can tell them anything as long as they have a permit with their council. so around and around we go. DogsVictoria have code of ethics that they need members to abide by so i'm off the opinion that maybe they need to employ an animal officer that inspects if they have reason to do so. but we do notice that if a breeder breeds more than within 18 months or breeds a bitch before the recommended age of that breed then they are named and shamed in the gazette and some of them are even fined or suspended. usually it will just state the code that they've violated. i had a friend that is really upset about puppy farmers and people breeding for profit and counted up how many litters a year some of these people were having and sometimes it got up to 20 litters with small toy dogs. *edited for spelling and grammar

some people are actually saying now (just general public not really involved alot with dogs) that they can see the day when petshops will be banned in selling live animals and also domestic animal farms will be banned eventually and they hope that the govt of the day will have enough sense to only have registered breeders with ANKC with pedigrees able to sell puppies where they can perhaps monitor all this a bit better. i don't see it ANKC take a back seat in all of this preferring to leave it up to individual state controlling bodies to battle it out but many are saying this is what is going to happen! i can see the day when it will be a thing of the past to actually breed, show and do dog sports with a dog. all these organisations need to get educated then come back to the drawing board. i really despise the fact that we (ethical ANKC registered breeders) are being bunged up in all of this and with commercial domestic animal businesses that churnout designer dogs for profit.

as i advise all people who ask me to assist them with finding a dog, put your name down with the maltese club in vic, and/or some breeders by ringing them personally and ring the puppy sales person in the club and advise them the age you want and usually they have breeders who have something they are looking for a good home for but don't advertise it or know of something coming up in future.

Define Puppy Farmer? Define back yard breeder? a reg ANKC breeder got into trouble by being dobbed in by a person that came to their property to purchase a pup.

they also say this on the FAQ page: What is the difference between a registered breeder and a puppy factory (and how will I know)? A registered breeder is registered with the Australian National Kennel Council and must meet certain requirements. A breeder will usually specialise in one breed and is also likely to be involved in showing that breed. A puppy factory will not be registered with the ANKC. Many claim to be registered, but they are just a ‘registered’ business! The ANKC only registers ‘pure breed’ dog breeders. All designer dogs are cross breeds. A breeder will be happy for you to visit them to meet the parents and the pups at their own premises, in fact most will insist. Puppy factories will not. If puppy factories who meet the legal requirements of minimum standards of care will not let you see their breeding facilities - they know that you will be horrified. A breeder will know about their breed, they will be happy to answer your questions and are very likely to have plenty of their own. If you are suspicious, go home and do some research. ETA; there are quite a few reg breeders that quite happily follow oscars law and were even at the rally. just saying....

This is all just head banging pie in the sky stuff. Been discussed forever on this forum and never gets resolved. and this exact same sentence has been said to death too, but i believe myself that i am getting something out of it, im learning about different view points thats why we have issues we discuss on this forum and it must be intersting as i saw at one stage 12 users on this subject?????? some have said to me in the past we are flogging a dead horse, its very much alive and well. being a reg breeder and we are explaining our position of why we don't get out there and rally and rub shoulders (some of us not all of us ofcourse) with pet owners. we are all against the same thing but some of us have a different view point and are explaining why. we can't really resolve this, are we expected on here on this forum to resolve this issue? when its up to the public and the public seems to be getting more and more aware of all this. i do believe when you are a domestic animal business having more than 10 fertile bitches by law council and DPI are required to inspect. how often and whether they do or not depends on the council region that you reside in. our area, council said they were inpsecting these premises regularly (puppy farm central area) and then when it was questioned through meetings it was found that was not the case at all as they didn't have the resources to do so. So on one hand the govt is passing all these laws and tightening laws but they want councils to administer it and councils can't because they haven't enough staff. in our area there is ONE animal officer to do 20 plus farms and thats it. if you are reg with ANKC in Victoria and have 10 fertile bitches and under you are able to be exempt as advised by DogsVictoria themselves through email by the CEO which i have a copy off. DogsVictoria went in and made sure we got exempt but im off the opinion why would you want anymore than 10 fertile bitches (no mention of studs here) a breeder could quite possibly sustain a bloodline with that number i guess thats why they set it at 10. and...just to add, i've had some come to me that are ANKC reg being harrassed by some councils and likened to a domestic animal business because it was unclear about ANKC breeders allowed 10 fertile bitches subject to getting a permit the normal way.

thank you

MORE than 5000 people rallied at State Parliament yesterday to demand the end of puppy farms. The Spring Street steps were full of people, placards and paws calling for the end of inhumane puppy farms, where dogs are bred in often filthy and cramped conditions. Animal advocate Debra Tranter founded ''Oscar's Law'' named in honour of a dog she rescued twice from a puppy farm. Advertisement: Story continues below Ms Tranter said support for Oscar's Law was ''overwhelming'' and public awareness was the key to wiping out cruel breeding conditions. ''It will be the public who shut down puppy farms, not legislation,'' she said. Ms Tranter said the state government had promised a review of the puppy farm code of practice, but without adequate resourcing and law enforcement, little would change to deter puppy farmers. Ms Tranter said people needed to question where puppies came from. Greens MP Sue Pennicuik said strong legislation and enforcement was needed to replace the existing code of practice. ''There are people breeding dogs who are in it for the money and are not interested in animal welfare who need to be stopped.'' Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/its-a-putsch-for-pooches-as-thousands-of-protesters-lay-down-the-law-for-oscar-20110918-1kg3z.html#ixzz1YN1Nv8z9 they had it on the news last night and i see there was a person from bernese mountain dog club? talking about not buying pups from petshops. so that club was supporting it.

how about the element that *what if* a intense puppy farming facility was breeding dogs in clean conditions, they were breeding oodle dogs, and they had staff attending to the every need of the dogs, just shadowing what a pedigree breeders does all the same care. so how do the animal rights people justify why they shouldnt' be there? if its all about care. when breeders knowing just a little bit more than the average joe, would be able to say, those dogs are not health tested there is not anyway we can tell what genetic problems lay in the immature puppy etc. etc. no pedigrees to research even knowing pedigrees its not an exact science i'd hate to be breeding blind without them though, but the animal rights people not knowing all that extra stuff to do with genetics what would be their argument then? puppy farm dogs end up in shelters, they've thrown that argument out the window based on not enough statistics. so what about MDBA would they support someone like this, if they had a cross bred and bred with a cross bred and did all the same things as a pedigree breeder, would MDBA support a person like this?

we'd be way in the red, way way in the red, like thousands of dollars over in the red, i don't even want to look at what we've spent because that would just squash any enjoyment out of the whole thing. im not interested in how much money we spend. the money is not important to us. and yes seen this many times, breeders saying they want to break even and get some money back on what they've spent usually thousands upon thousands of dollars over many years. so no one argues about that or looks down on that. not tha ti can see anyway.

These charges were actally dropped and Debra was found not guilty. I am not very good with computers, though hope this link works http://deathrowpets.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/puppy-farmers-have-to-ham-it-up-themselves-our-puppy-mill-warrior-debra-tranter-wins-court-case-with-aca-kennels/ Whoops, sorry. Nic.B wrongly logged in as Poundlist are you Nic B?

yes most politicians are ignorant and don't want to know. and these are the same people making our laws based on media hype which is very scary. Bill shorten i've made coffees for him as he is my ex-boss very good friend. LOL so i gave him a few home truths about BSL i can tell you. politely ofcourse. also told my ex-boss who i am still very good friends with and he said, "well its the owners who need to be prosecuted not banning a whole breed" well thank you at least someone has got some sense.

and get rid of animals in pet shops ;) and reading up on clovers moores bill, this is the reason why her bill got turfed out. they said that there was not enough evidence to suggest that puppies sold in petshops was directly related to dumpage in shelters. i believe they added on that argument and then they came up against a brick wall when they were winning but for that.

yes thats what im saying really. Im open to learning others views and thinking some more about it. in a way on one hand im saying about the way these dogs are bred in these situations, being farmed and to me it all ties in with the obvious motivation which is money. but on the other hand i am going on about the care of these dogs and the way they're being bred without health at the forefront and research to plan for the health of the coming litter and testing parents etc. etc. mainly i do see more designer dog facilities with these key elements rather than a reg breeder with a pedigree dog. but a farmer can also jump to pedigrees as we've found out many times. my first pedigree dog i know now was from a farmer who got closed down from the council. i was only a young kid and these dogs were on dirt floors in sheds and not in the best condition and i went with my mum to save a puppy. no one mentioned puppy farms in those days that term was unheard of. and about this breeder whose been dubbed a "farmer"; it is really unclear as to their motivation - lots still say its all for money but usually i've found over many years its cloak and dagger whether a breeder is motivated by money or not, not very often do you hear "oh i breed for a profit for myself to make some extra cash" i've never ever heard of anyone coming out and saying that point blank - why is that. people are even at odds with the care of the animals as well with this breeder, some say that they've been on the premises and the dogs are clean, healthy and fed, yet RSPCA got called in via animal libs and person buying a puppy. others say they've been there and there was wall to wall dogs in cramped cages more than whats recommended in a cage.

for me, and some might agree with me and some might not, but for me, someone who breeds for profit and usually its a person with cross bred designer dogs but not always, is someone who will cut corners not breed their dogs for health in mind, not get their dogs tested to make sure those resulting puppies are the healthiest, not spend the big bucks to ensure everything is right is the difinition of a farmer so in essence the care or lack of it is directly related to how much profit they can get without spending on those essential things. = farmer. on the other side of the coin, i know of a breeder who has imports, always for about 30 years bred a large number of dogs, showed those dogs, as far as i could see bred the dogs healthy but others are saying is a hoarder. kept those dogs inside and outside in runs. RSPCA definition puppy farmer. a few others difinition = puppy farmer. yet others difinition is reg breeder large volume. so whose right whose wrong?