Jed

I wonder what they expect "responsible dog breeders" to do to stop operations where dogs are treated as little more than profitable breeding machines???

Is there something in ACT legislation that pups must be neutered prior to sale, or was that simply media license?

I can not understand why people come to the BSL forum to bag pitbulls, or justify their breed, or to support BSL. Why bother ? If you support BSL, you are on the winning side, be happy with that. You wont be happy when your breed is included but that is in the future, so you don't need to worry about it. Does it make you feel good to give others a hard time? Are you gloating? Does it give you a vicarious thrill to think about all the pitbulls knocked off? Or are you trying to talk others out of supporting anti BSL laws? What's your point? You've never done any reseach, only going on what is printed in the media, or what you think. Very odd.

The problem is, you (universal "you") read the media reports. Pitbulls look pretty bad. Wouldn't want one living next door. Nasty bloody things, turn in a flash and kill the kids. The majority of pitbulls are simply dogs, with the same attributes for their breed as other breeds. Sure, the boys may want to fight. I know plenty of reputable staffy breeders who tell owners to be careful about the staffy fighting. I tell buyers of boy boxers the very same thing. It is not in the nature of pitbulls to attack people. It never has been. They were never bred as a guarding dog. And the fight has been bred out of most of them anyhow. There are very few dog fighters about, and you wouldn't want to approach t hem as "a peer" anyhow. And the fighting dawgs are unaffected. As ever, they are underground, being abused still, while the nice family pets are the ones bearing the brunt of this. The pitbulls affected by BSL are not fighting dogs, they are simply family pets. Read my lips - it has nothing to do with pitbulls. Pitbulls were simply a breed which was chosen to be the first dog which was banned. THE FIRST DOG. Not because of anything they had done. More breeds have been added to the bans, and more will be added. More will be restricted, as in Germany. The American Pit Bull Terrier and the "media pitbull" about which we hear so much have absolutely nothing in common. Keep researching. I did. It's a shame you wont get to meet some nice pitbulls. I spent a day at an expo with a pitbull - all the kids had a cuddle, all the mums had a pat, and then said "oh, how cute what is it?" "AARRGGH, a PIT BULL!!!" They couldn't believe it. They'd been up close and personal with a PITBULL. Which in truth, was a nice small to medium sized, red dog with a red nose, and a good attitude, and a happy, waggy disposition, happy to meet and greet all comers. The really scary thing of the day was not the pitbull, it was the police GSD's escaping, and coming over to eat us, pitbull and all. There were some scared pitbull supporters and some embarrassed policemen!! Most of the people in favour of the bans have never had anything to do with the breed, so you tend to believe what is in the newspapers. How do you know they were GSD's Jed, did you see their pedigree papers and match the ear tatoo???. They may have been GSD Dutch Shepherd cross with a bit of Belgian Malinios in the mix???. Because their ears stick up, doesn't make them GSD's, and you know GSD's are not supposed to be savage by the breed standard. They must have been some cross breed dogs, couldn't be GSD's, all dogs can bite, it's the deed not the breed!!!. This is a stupid response Jed, but no more stupid than the responses from the APBT supporters which are always on the same lines as this which I have written purely to highlight how silly responses like this look in support of a breed :D Poor attempt at irony is actually sarcasm, the lowest form of wit. It never stops Justin, same old defence over and over again. I know two APBT breeders well who both have some truely great dogs of their own, but both have PTS several highly aggressive Pits over the years that they believed were no good for the average pet owner and a liability in the wrong hands. And there have been GSD euthed for aggression, and Amstaffs, and LGV,and cattledogs. If this is your argument, I don't think you are on the correct page.

Sandgrubber, I believe we would be further ahead - as I have said before - if councils enforced the existing legislation via ACO's actually doing something about reports of dogs behaving badly, and being out, or killing other dogs at dog parks. Instead - in Q anyhow - they were rounding up all the "pitbulls". I don't believe BSL makes anyone "clean up their act". The people and dogs targetted, imo, were squeaky clean anyhow. To repeat myself - the fighting dogs, and the bad dogs were underground, and went futher underground. Now, instead of papered APBT bred by responsible people, we have dogs bred by people with no regard for the law, and probably little knowledge or sense. Which makes the situation worse. Look at the Australian stats. There are some adjusted by breed numbers which are illuminating.

Longcoat I know because I was speaking to the nice policemen earlier in the day, and they told me their dog squad which was at the expo consisted of ALL REGISTERED GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS.

Our breed standard calls for bidability Traditional job: retrieval of shot game, often in wet conditions, or before that, pulling in of fishing nets in very cold, rough waters. I've had some dogs that are gung-ho. I've had some dogs that won't quit. I've had some dogs that are keen on everything (ie, game in the 'I'm game' sense). I've had some dogs that are real athletes. I've had some dogs that have emotional IQ's that would fit in the top 5% if they were matched against humans. I've had some dogs who were faithful to a fault. I've had dogs that love water and have to be controlled lest they commit suicide by swimming into ice flows in a frozen river during spring break up. I am still confused about which are 'game'. I don't mean to be flippant by suggesting a 'game' litter. I just find the definitions put forward on this thread are all over the place. Perhaps it's better to say 'exceptional' rather than 'game' to avoid confusion. Naw, imho, "exceptional" is not game. But Icould be wrong. And flippant is ok. I've had good dogs in one way or another, but game ones are different. It's difficult to explain. I didn't know the one I mentioned was "game" till after. I've already said the cocker was game. When he saw the 2 dingos, both a lot bigger than he is, he sized up the situation, and went for them. He didn't even bother checking that the boxer was behind him, lucky she was I think. And they were chasing them over the hills and far away when I called them back. He's not a fighter, he's a game dog - that's one illustration for you.

Cheaper t o hand them over than euth them! I thought those regulations were ok - EXCEPT - for the living space. Why don't they legislate that each dog must have x2? Or legislate that they must have an excercise area of xm2 to which they must have free access during daylight hours? It can't be that difficult to legislate for that, surely?

That's just so wrong. It's also illegal. It's wrong to call the dog something it isn't. Wrong to the other breed/cross, and wrong to anyone who may take the dog on, be faced with the laws, NOI, tt, ba, etc when they thought they were getting a lab x. Just wrong, and lacking in sense, for a whole lot of reasons. And yes, I do differ, because I can see the looming problems someone else will face. No, it's not nice to see good dogs pts, but there is nothing we can do about it, that's the law, and passing the dog on - if it is a pitbull -only widens the problem. I've saved dogs, but not by doing anything illegal. Causes more problems than it solves. And, for the dog, it's wrong too. Somewhere along the line, someone is going to point the finger, and the dog is in trouble. Sending to rescue wont work, no rescue will rehome. It's illegal. You'll never beat these laws by doing anything illegal. And I'd have to wonder about a pet shop advertising and selling a pitbull in NSW. I suppose it could happen in one of the smaller shops, but I wonder if the owners dreamed the breed? I'm interested Jed- do you believe it is wrong to microchip chip a dog as a breed it is not only if it is being rehomed or it is wrong to microchip a dog as a breed it is not full stop? I ask as I know it not uncommon for pitbull and pitbull xs to be microchipped as amstaffs or amstaff xs I believe it is wrong to register and/or microchip a banned or restricted breed as something it is not. Whether it is being rehomed or not. It's wrong, full stop. For the reasons I have given above. In cases I've been involved in, where the dog was an xbred, and could have been pitbull (or not) someone in authority was allowed to decide. In Qld, the only assessment which was valid was that of an ACO, not a vet etc. However, if the vet thought the dog was not a pitbull, and was prepared to state that, that was good with me. And the fact that a vet thought it was XX sometimes was helpful if an ACO thought otherwise. The wider and long term implications of chipping or registering a pit bull as something else are what bothers me. You might save 1 dog, to the detriment of hundreds of others. It's sad, it breaks my heart to see a good dog unnecessarily knocked off, but it's the law. You all know what I think about anti docking legislation. I think it stinks, but I would never dock one of my pups, because I think the longer term problems are immense. And it's against the law. Mind you, I pray nightly that the mother will chew the tails off, or an act of God will happen and the tails will spontaneously disappear!! :D Sometimes, the urge to do what is right (ie, save a nice dog) is very strong, but you need to consider all the implications of doing that by lying and avoiding the law, and the more you think of those implications, the worse you realise they are. The right thing is to keep chipping away at wrong laws.

It is, I believe, against the forum rules to use the forums to buy or sell dogs.

The major problem with trying to source a pup and particularly an older pup is that most breeders receive about 5 enquiries for every pup. And there are not as many older pups available. Mostly one of those enquiries is from someone who projects as the perfect home. Owned a Cav before, died of old age etc, blah blah, so it is very difficult for most puppy buyers, no matter how wonderful to compete with that. But realistically, with 1 pup and 5 enquiries, it is difficult to get one. Additionally, a lot of breeders will not sell to families with small children, because we all know a horror story about children and pups. Mine is that the 5 year old threw the juvenile off the balcony, his leg was very badly broken, cost to repair was about $4000, so they had the vet bandage it instead. It never healed properly, the dog was given back to the breeder. Cost $6000 at the ortho specialist to fix it, and the dog had arthritis from 5 years. My second one is the kids playing football with the pup. The mother was a nurse, and should have known better. The pup had permanent brain damage. But I think your problem also is simply that the breeders have a lot of enquiries, or do not feel the pup will be suitable with children. I will sell to families although I want to see the children interact with my adult dogs and the pups first. We've had a few episodes of the children picking the pup up by the leg, but I am open to the next family, because Cavaliers are an excellent family dog. And quite a few of mine live with children. And don't feel too bad - it's not you, it is simply the scarcity of pups, and older pups. Most of us have to wait. I waited over 18 months for a male pup. The right one will come along, just when you least expect it.

I am so grateful for those who have shared their experiences with bloat. I realise it isn't pleasant reliving a nasty experience which brings back hurtful memories, so please know that I do understand how difficult it is. Thank you. I have never had a dog with bloat, but a friend did, with a dog I knew and loved. And it was a nasty experience, distressing even to hear without being there, so I know how hard it must be.

There is also a tiny mite which infests dogs, the hair turns pink from the tiny drops of blood when the mite has bitten. Happens to cavs between their eyes. One of the flea/tick preparations cures it. I've forgotten which one. Revolution maybe? Might need to aks your vet. Can also be caused by bacteria.

Sandgrubber The problem is, you (universal "you") read the media reports. Pitbulls look pretty bad. Wouldn't want one living next door. Nasty bloody things, turn in a flash and kill the kids. The majority of pitbulls are simply dogs, with the same attributes for their breed as other breeds. Sure, the boys may want to fight. I know plenty of reputable staffy breeders who tell owners to be careful about the staffy fighting. I tell buyers of boy boxers the very same thing. It is not in the nature of pitbulls to attack people. It never has been. They were never bred as a guarding dog. And the fight has been bred out of most of them anyhow. There are very few dog fighters about, and you wouldn't want to approach t hem as "a peer" anyhow. And the fighting dawgs are unaffected. As ever, they are underground, being abused still, while the nice family pets are the ones bearing the brunt of this. The pitbulls affected by BSL are not fighting dogs, they are simply family pets. Read my lips - it has nothing to do with pitbulls. Pitbulls were simply a breed which was chosen to be the first dog which was banned. THE FIRST DOG. Not because of anything they had done. More breeds have been added to the bans, and more will be added. More will be restricted, as in Germany. The American Pit Bull Terrier and the "media pitbull" about which we hear so much have absolutely nothing in common. Keep researching. I did. It's a shame you wont get to meet some nice pitbulls. I spent a day at an expo with a pitbull - all the kids had a cuddle, all the mums had a pat, and then said "oh, how cute what is it?" "AARRGGH, a PIT BULL!!!" They couldn't believe it. They'd been up close and personal with a PITBULL. Which in truth, was a nice small to medium sized, red dog with a red nose, and a good attitude, and a happy, waggy disposition, happy to meet and greet all comers. The really scary thing of the day was not the pitbull, it was the police GSD's escaping, and coming over to eat us, pitbull and all. There were some scared pitbull supporters and some embarrassed policemen!! Most of the people in favour of the bans have never had anything to do with the breed, so you tend to believe what is in the newspapers.

Dogs are stolen because someone wanted a free one, druggies steal SWF to on sell to the gullible, and they are stolen for bait. They are also stolen for breeding. Someone had 2 speyed cavs stolen. They were taken from the back of her property, over the fence. They were returned 2 days later, and everyone suspected it was because they were speyed and ear tatooed. There have been true stories of dogs stolen in one suburb, and turning up months later in anothe suburb, wearing a collar and rope - id by microchip. SWF for green dogs, staffies and amstaffs, and other dogs of similar size for more seasoned performers. In areas where dogs fights are rumoured, more dogs go missing. And sometimes they are found really badly injured, or dead with fight wounds. In a suburb in Toowoomba (Q) some years ago, heaps of cats disappeared. People jokingly blamed the local Chinese restaurant. Council did a random inspection, fridge full of cats!! Fined, and told to clean up their act. Cats were safe. Back in business, open for 12 months, council inspects again, more cats. Reported in paper, so not gossip, and restaurant was then closed by the council. So, you never know!!

Yes, stress is given as a probable cause in most of the studies I've read.

Oh, I'd have the pexy done!

From the respondants so far, bloat doesn' t seem to be confined to large, deep chested breeds. Although perhaps large, deep chested breeds are more predisposed to the problems with dry / commercial feed than smaller breeds? I have two puppy buyers waiting for Anatolian pups, both have previously had danes, one has lost two danes to bloat and another has lost one dane to bloat. I can pretty much guarantee - that given a raw meaty bone diet - their Anatolian wont die of bloat before other more high risk factors. If commercial dry food causes more gas, more end product; is metabolised faster, then to me all that dense 'protein, essential amino-acid nutrient enriched food', is asking too much of the dogs metabolic system, and in some dogs this is what is giving out. Sorry Jed am brainstorming in your thread, will shutup now Keep watching, lilli!!

Yep, 60% in one report I read. Others give different figures. Thanks for the replies everyone. Keep them coming. I'll tell you why later. Thanks SAS, I had read that report.

How terribly sad for the dogs lost to this and their owners. I feel for you. Winpara, friend lost a dog in almost exactly the same way. Iread somewhere of a dacshund lost to bloat. I'm sorry it's such a sad thing, and makes you think about something you'd rather forget., but am so grateful for the replies.

Thanks, Rommi n Lewis, thanks fifi. I'll add those questions. They aren't relevant to what I want to know, but hopefully, if I get enough replies I can do a chart which might help us a bit. :D Fifi, I have done a bit of research. I was reading something the other day regarding bloat, and it got the cogs grinding away ..... I don't suppose we will discover anything world shattering, but most of the studies I've read have had gneralised comments. I do realise that every case is different. the Wycliffe poodles were cured of bloat by having their vaccinations split up (Jean Dodds). I wonder if the rabies vaccine, in combination with the others, does something to the system? That's not the purpose here though. I just want to know what caused the bloat, or something similar each dog did.

Thanks, Mantis Yes, I do think it is wrong. I had a 5 year argument with Dougie because he believed I told someone to register a pitbull as a staffy or an amstaff so it could attend obedience. I idn't, it was another poster. I could see the rationale, but I don't agree with it. My sympathies are with the individual dog, and I don't necessarily believe it will attack. Also, where this was done (and it has been), ACO's have discovered the truth, so the dog has been dragged off anyhow If the dog's breed is not known - and really, a pitbull can look lots of different ways - then I think it should be chipped as what it looks like, or what the vet (if he is doing the chipping) thinks. Mind you, in that situation, I would take the dog to a sympathetic vet!! There are a lot of pitbulls id'd as something other than they are. That's up to the owner. I certainly wouldn't report if I knew it had gone on (and I do know), because it's none of my business. But I wouldn't advise someone to do it. I can see far too many potential problems, none of them good for the dog or the owner. Or for the anti BSL cause. And I always try to think ahead to what the future could hold. If enough pitbulls are chipped as Amstaffs, there will come a time when amstaffs are DD or RB too. Not because the pitbulls do anything wrong, but because someone will smell a rat. In Q an amstaff without papers (well, anything really without papers) is a pitbull, and that's a bad situation. IMHO, better to let one pitbull go than condemn 100 amstaffs or 100 staffies, or increase the severity of the laws because they are being circumvented. And don't think I'm not sympathetic, I've moved a lot of dogs out of the way of harm from BSL, and I would continue to do that. And I've given people who are faced with their dogs being named as DD all the options available and let them choose.

I would like to find out more about bloat. Read the scientific papers, read the theories, now am looking for some hands on. If your dog has bloated, I would be very grateful if you could answer some questions about it. If I get a few replies,I'll post the results here. And maybe we'll all learn a little What breed? How old was the dog? Was there a familial component? What was the dog being fed? Need some detail of what exactly - if dry food, which one, if raw, what it was How often was he fed? Once daily or more? Was his bowl elevated, or on the ground? What was he doing when he bloated? (ie, at a show, at home, playing, at home alone) Has he bloated more than once? Has he had a gastrowhatsit? LOL (too lazy to look it up, but you'll know :D ) Did he ever bloat after that? Did the dog also suffer GDV Did it have surgery? What was done to relieve the bloat? I might think of more questions later, but this about covers what I would like to know.

Sandgrubber, if you are ever lucky enough to own a game dog, or know a game dog who belongs to a friend, you will understand what "game" is. I have been fortunate enough to own a few game dogs, and they have been the best dogs I could ever hope to own. And no, they never attacked and killed anyone :D But they wouldn't have hesitated if they had seen the need. I used the leave the gamest one inside with the baby if I went out to feed horses. She wasn't keen on that, her job was to stay with me, but she did it. If there was a problem, she came and told me. Game doesn't = vicious. And yes, they were unsupervised.

Justin, give Sandgrubber a chance to find out for herself. If she does sufficient research, she'll see the picture. You abusing her wont help her find out things.