Cosmolo

LP- you're right in that it is the training techniques and consistency- my guys have great stays and i'm sure your do too- using different techniques. Its interesting though that you use stay 'sometimes' I would have thought that a drop on the move would need to be accompanied by stay if you were purely training that way. Doesn't that suggest that the dog is waiting for a release anyway and doesn't care whether you say stay or not..?

I hope no one thinks i am trying to be a smart I really am just thinking out loud and genuinely curious. Its quite thought provoking..

As an extension of this topic- for those of you who use stay, how do you do a drop on the move, Do you have to say stay straight after the drop command to get the dog to hold the position as you continue walking?

Why do you want to discourage a pup from being submissive with other adult dogs?

I agree with and do the same as jesomil and i have 4 dogs- 3 bitches and one dog. In your case SM, i would remove Molly from on top of Ed if he was getting grumpy with it. I want my dogs to believe that i will take care of it so that they don't ever have to. Jess, one of our older dogs, mounts Georgie (the newest dog) every now and then when she is playing with Cosmo. We call Jess away or give a verbal correction because Georgie wasn't doing anything 'wrong', we're the boss and there is no reason for jess to do anything. On the other hand, Cosmo and Georgie will annoy Jess- submissive but very annoying- and we will call them away most times before Jess tells them off. We don't separate/ isolate them if they are both at fault, rather we'll put them both in a drop and release them when they're a little more settled. I don't believe that time outs are as effective as controlling the situation yourself with both dogs still present and this is certainly my preference. Different dogs will be dominant in different situations- some dogs place more importance on toys for instance so may appear to be 'dominant' in that regard. Doesn't mean that when it comes down to the crunch, that they are the boss, just means that they have higher value for toys than the other dogs. My dogs get fed in a different order every night, get worked/ trained in different orders etc. Jesomil- i don't think there should always be a dominant dog with the pack- if i was to guess at pack structure in my house i would have to say that both Otto and Jessie are at the top and alternate depending on whats important and Cosmo and Georgie are the lower dogs- but i'd be heistant to split them beyond that. I don't believe that it serves a purpose unless you are having inter dog aggression issues to 'pick' a dominant dog and create pack structure.

Just be aware that if the pups have been vaccinated recently, you may get a false positive.

No i haven't cavsrcute- where do you get it from? Have you got any more information on what it does?

Is he licking around their mouth?

SM- if you're goint to be at Southern on Wedneday i can show you if you like? LP- I second what Erny said in that even if you get your footwork wrong, usually there is a stronger over riding command- verbal 'heel' or hand signal. I agree with kelpie- i that both can work BUT i have found that the dog who gets taught with stay generally (not all) take a bit longer to grasp the concept and can be a little more unreliable in highly distracting environments and/ or with out of sight work. Thanks for contributing to a great discussion guys.

Is it your timing that was out or is the sound slower than the video?

What time does it start on the Saturdays?

Okay, i'll try to be quite specific- Both of their weights are ideal, we keep them fairly light so they are on the lighter side of an 'ideal weight'. Otto is 15kg and Jess is around 20 -22kg. They both get sentinel spectrum once a month and are up to date with a C5 vaccination. They are taken out every day for short walks but have more significant exercise- running at the park, going to the beach- 2-3 times per week for around an hour In terms of food- Otto is on ADVANCE senior and Jess ir on ADVANCE energy. They do get raw meaty bones about 3 times a week. Omega blend of oild and joint guard is given daily. Sardines, eggs and apple cider vinegar- once or twice a week. They each had a course of cartrophen about a year ago- 4 lots, a week apart and were then given it monthly to every 6 weeks. They are now having another 4 week course of cartrophen. The arthritis was diagnosed without x rays until this point by physically examining the dogs. Hope that helps ;)

Its not good for the puppy if he is already showing submissive behaviour and getting punished by the other dog for it. How about just taking them for a walk together? Don't do the same thing again- you will only allow the older dog to practice the bad behaviour and to confirm in your pups mind that they should be worried.

I have done a search and there are some good suggestions- its just that most of those i am already doing!

I know this could go round in circles- but healthy discussion is a good thing and its good to hear other perspectives, even if you don't agree with them. I think this has been a great discussion so far. Mrs D- as to the heeling versus why wouldn't you give an additional command for stay- here is a answer which i think might make some sense as to where i am coming from- I don't consider the STAY to be a separate exercise- if the dog is already in a sit or a drop, that is the command, the position and the stay is irrelevant- sit means sit until i say you can get up or ask you for another position/ exercise and likewise with drop. Hence, there is no need to give an additional command as the dog is already doing the exercise. Here's another question- for those of you who use wait and or stay- i assume you use it for a sit, drop and stand- how is that not using the same command for 3 different positions? LP- hold as in holding a dumbell when you give it to the dog? I understand what your saying about the dogs relaxing but i can assure you my dogs are completely relaxed in their stays as they know they have to stay there until i say otherwise- same concept as what you have with the wait/ stay- i don't think wait/ stay does anything awful to the dog, but do view it as unnecesary. The dogs i have met with the most reliable stays have always however, been dogs that are trained not to move until release or additional command

Hmm, this is very interesting. Just to clarify, i DO use hand signals but not stay or wait. So in taking off, from a sit to heel, i would use a hand signal or command for a beginner dog- i don't expect the novice dog to pick up what my feet are doing. If i am leaving the dog in a sit, the dog hasn't seen or heard any other command so the sit is still the relevant position for the dog. Interesting SM- i don't want the dog to have an estimate of the time i will be away and/ or what i will do next as IMO it leads to anticipation by the dog. Its arguable as to whether this is a good thing. What if you don't meet the dogs expectation and have a longer time frame?

Mrs D- thanks for your reply- what do you feel is the value of the stay and wait commands though- do you think that it makes it clearer for the dog than just having a command and release? The first time we went to our training club, they were impressed but then over time it changed to disdain in that- they said if the dog made a mistake in a trial, it would be our fault for not giving the dog the best opportunity (with an obvious hand signal and stay command) to win. Erny- we have an informal command as well similar to what you describe- stay there is not a position at all but just means hang around where you are.

I have 4 dogs, 2 of which are showing signs of arthritis at what i consider to be an early age. Jess is 7 1/2 years old and is showing moderate to severe stiffness after exercise- unless its low impact swimming etc. Otto is 8 years old and has just started the same thing- he was sore about a year ago but cartrophen injections appeared to 'fix' him until now. Both dogs have had multiple courses of cartrophen and are having another regular series of injections at the moment. The cartrophen helped Otto and seemed to do nothing for Jessie. Joint products that they have been on include Sasha's blend, Vets all natural joint formula and most recently joint guard- have been on it for the last 3 months. They get an omega blend of oils daily, sardines and apple cider vinegar once a week and are on very good quality dry food. Jess saw a qualified massage threapist on Saturday and they didn't find anything major, the vet has diagnosed them with arthritis- both in their front legs, although Jess appears most sore in her back legs after exercise. So the questions are- is there anything else we can do? Does anyone else think this is rather young for arthritis? They were both working dogs on a property for a couple of years but since retiring, have had fairly easy lives- jess is ball crazy so has done more than otto.

I am curious to know what commands you use with your dogs for a sit or drop stay and in trials. The obedience club i went to last year found it unbelievable that we use neither wait nor stay and that sit and drop means do so until i give you another command or you are released. They seemed to think that doing that doesn't give the dog the best opportunity to obey- i say it gives the dog absolute clarity. For those of you who use stay/ wait commands or a release word, why do you do so and what are the advantages/ disadvantages in both a trial sense and practical application?

Kerrin i'd suggest seeing a trainer like k9 force to show you what can be achieved with an e collar/ remote trainer. You can have a reliobale recall with a Mal- a friend of mine had 7 mals and almost all of hers were very reliable

We normally just do run throughs on our own for her obedience and go straight down to agility

Hi SM- usually we have always had Cosmo- see picture. Now i'll probably bring her and at least one other dog down.

Congrats LP- thats great. Slightly OT- Is there anyone else here who trains at Southern on wednesdays? We were going down every week last year but then have had about the last 4 or 5 months off because we were ridiculously busy. We will hopefully start being back there as of this week to do agility with Cosmo and start Georgie- need to be as committed at LP has been!!! We won the club trial last year (our first, in novice without trial experience) and then have been still training but not competing at all- very bad!!!! Good on you LP, you must be really proud of him, and you!

Whereabouts are you located? You really want to get their behaviour under control before the baby arrives. What training and/ or socialisation have they had up until this point? You might be interested in reading through the When Freddy Meets Fido info on our website- there really is alot to consider given that you will soon have a newborn so it can be hard to advise online.

Second what Poodlefan said- its important that you learn appropriate ways to build his confidence to resolve the problem rather than have it get worse over time- which is likely to happen otherwise. I'm sure a good behaviourist or behavioural trainer would be able to assist you and him so that he can be a little less stressed.