Erny

A sponge bath or wash with Calendula Tea is what I'd use.

What?!! Apart from the fact that force feeding isn't necessarily what this dog needs, you think a dog needs to see you to associate with you? Unless you stuff its nostrils with cotton wool as well????

There is no author to that YouTube?

Is this the thread? : LINKY

I don't think "Big Shot" has been mentioned? Although not really a girl name. ETA: Also, "Best Shot" and "Moon Shot". I like the theme, RRLover and I particularly like the two names you've already chosen ..... ie "Hot Shot" and "Double Shot". I think "Double Shot" could be a girl name, at least. And Hot Shot and Big Shot for the boys. Perhaps? Would love to see some piccies .

Well that's fair ..... my grasp of NZ geography ain't exactly something to write home about either . To the OP - apologies for the brief OT.

Erny : You seem to have misunderstood. When "stay" is taught (I'm generalising) often the dog learns to relax as it begins to realise that it needs to wait until the release and that could be a while coming. When training "stay" for the sake of obedience, "calm" or "relaxation" might not be what's uppermost in your mind, but I think it does form a lot of good "stay" work, because a dog who is not calm, not relaxed, is a dog that might more easily break than a dog who is. That is why I used the words "goes to calming" rather than training for stay for obedience purposes being about training in calm behaviours. But the first can and in my experience often does, lead to the other. Anyway, I really regret that the point of my first post has been made to become so convoluted, so unless something else comes up in relation to what I've mentioned, I'll leave it at this. Hope this post is a bit more easily understood.

I agree. ETA: Hey Staranais .. You're right. Steve (K9 Pro) is in a different State - ie NSW. I (Pro-K9) am in Victoria.

..... that's fantastic, SnF . If you don't need to pill them frequently, use the "it's only a treat" method in between, as though it were a game. This will help by the time you get to the next time you need to pill them. I don't mean you need to do it every day, but more frequently in this beginning, especially now as they did take a tablet, you really want to let them know that more as likely as not, it will just be a yummy treat. Well done .

Your dog sounds like mine - although with my boy it is about his digestive system function. In part I strongly believe thyroid dysfunction has affected his digestive system function (from a considerably earlier age than one might expect). But to talk about that side of things would be digressing. The point is, I strongly believe my boy 'went off' certain foods because they made him feel unwell and/or caused abdominal pain. With some foods, this could occur very quickly. With other foods (eg. Vets All Natural and BARF) it might take a while (even months) and then all of a sudden he goes off it. This may or may not be happening with your dog. I now have my boy on Hills Science Z/D (prescription). It's very expensive (especially when it's a big dog and he's eating 5 cans a day plus, if we're lucky, a portion of the kibble, which is also Z/D) but his appetite has been much improved and steadier. I *touch wood* here as I am aware that he could just as easily turn off this for some reason, although I'm a bit more confident that he won't, this time around. I have recently begun to add cooked sweet potato. I don't know the truth in it but it was suggested by a Vet that it may assist with adding weight to my dog. For all that he eats when he does eat it, weight doesn't go on easily. I am now trialling, bit by bit, with different protein sources, to see what upsets him and/or causes him to go off his food. Ok - I'll stop rambling, but bear in mind that if you are offering foods based on their fat content because it is what you want to do (ie fatten her up) it could be this very thing that is putting her off her food or making her feel a bit off and therefore off her appetite in general. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. It doesn't fully answer your question but maybe does open up some area for thought. Whilst I know that some dogs can learn fussiness in their eating habits, I do not automatically assume this to be the case, as I also know from experience that some dogs come to know what is right or wrong for them, or that they might feel uncomfortable once they have eaten. ETA: You might be interested to know that Dr Jean Dodds (USA) has a "new breakthrough" to be released shortly in relation to problematic digestive systems. It will involve a test kit (from what I gather, something the home dog owner can use - this would be the basic test level) and then depending on the result from that, there will be other things that are at a Veterinary level, that can be done. I expect I will be writing here on DOL when it is released and I have more information. Dr Jean has included me on the list and I'm assured I'll be contacted once it is ready to go.

Is there a reason why we shouldn't be able to, Staranais?

That supports the tension/stress relief theory - if he loves them, no need for zoomies. Sorry to burst your bubble ..... but Mandela will do zoomies after he's taken a voluntary dip in the lake. That doesn't really support the tension/stress relief theory.

Not having first hand experience in entire bitches and the Suprelorin Implant, I would expect it would stop the seasons just as "The Pill" stops women having periods (mostly). But these questions best to be double checked with those who know .....

but ..... Ivan Balabanov

Force rest is not really necessary but if the dog is on pain killers, an owner should make sure the dog does not overdo it. The pain actually provides an important self limiting factor. You still want the dog to move as much as it is able. I had a dog and its owner come to me for a lesson using 'drive' as the training principal. This is quite energetic. I explained more than demonstrated when it came to the energetic stuff and discouraged doing so until the dog was better, as it presented quite lame. The owner told me it was Pano. I avoided working for fast recalls and the lesson was spent on more passive exercises. In your opinion do you think I did the right thing? I was and still would not be comfortable about working a dog actively when it was showing such signs of soreness. Or was I being anal and it would have been ok to commence and continue the active training? My senses tell me "no" ..... To K&P - my apologies for the but back in that instance (this was quite a while back), I was unfamiliar with what Pano was.

It's a desexing implant - works much as "The Pill" works for women. It is an implant just like a microchip. (There is the human equivalent of "The Pill" implant too.) You can get ones that last for 6 months and also ones that last for one year. Check it out because I'm not sure ..... but I thought they were working on one that would last for 2 years. Not sure about that though. Funnily enough, Suprelorin was developed for use in bitches but they found it worked well in dogs and use in dogs as opposed to bitches seems to be the most prevalent. I have a couple of theories for reasons this might be so but that would take us OT so won't rattle on about that here. Point is, whilst you will hear it used more in males, it is, I believe, quite successful in females as well.

I didn't mean the male should be implanted.

I haven't gotten to the rest of the posts here yet, but totally agree with PF on thse points. Just because the lead is chain does NOT mean it is strong. I have witnessed chain leads snap clean through their links - resulting in a loose dog and at least one handler who was incredibly lucky to keep his eye because of the lead recoil. As PF also says - a chain lead is not comfortable to hold when wanting or needing to shorten or lengthen by looping in your hand. This makes it dangerous again, because of potential damage to your hand and the fact that you won't hold it as well if your hand is hurting. Also, remember that the only thing holding the head collar on is a piece of plastic. You should make sure that you incorporate a "Fail Safe" device, if you haven't already. You can purchase these or you can rig a 'make-shift' one by using an oversized quality check chain. You attach both the chain and the head-collar to the lead. The chain should be long enough to NOT come into operation when applying the head-collar, but it will at least be there if the head-collar should give. I also agree with PF that head collars need special tuition in their use. You have a lot of leverage in your hands and the stress point is where your dog's head attaches to the first vertebrae in the spine. A lunging dog can easily do damage, no matter how well versed in handling a handler is. Even easier if a person does not know and is not experienced in their use. This is not to say don't use one, but be aware of the dangers of their use. ETA: Have now read through all posts and note the OP's decision to return the dog. Good decision, by the sounds of it. I hope he finds his way to a suitable home. He seems a nice dog in all other aspects.

Don't know about it but the Vet's attitude makes sense. Has your friend thought about using the Suprelorin Implant instead? Edited for spelling

yes! I will travel hours for these! I went to the Sydney Expo ages ago just to get one of these! OT, but does anyone know where you can get them?? I need more! mine are all broken Phone number for Studio Sebastian is in a post on Page 1 or 2 of this thread. Apparently he is based in Tassie now.

Lol ..... my previous (avatar) girl, "Kal" (bhcs) used to continue to sleep whilst being vacuumed around. When I first adopted her she was quite panicked about the vacuum, but I cured that. Too well, it seems ..... because it almost became a pain in the that she wouldn't volunteer to move out of the way.

The point I made in my first post, Corvus was that in answer to your question, many trainer/behaviourists possibly do utilise stay training in the rehabilitation of unwanted dog behaviour but wouldn't necessarily put their hands up to say they use "Karen Overall's Protocol". If no-one put their hand up to say they do or don't use "Karen Overall's Protocol" you might draw two conclusions from that. One being that perhaps they don't know what "Karen Overall's Protocol" is and/or the second being that trainer/behaviourists don't use it. When in fact, there's a fat chance they DO use it, but that it is not "Karen Overall's Protocol" but merely something that they do because they know how to do it. You're right - but I don't think it is a point I made? But perhaps this is your thought and not something you are projecting onto me . Where did I say that "obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours"? What I said was : Getting a dog to learn (for example) stay work DOES have a spin off to self-control and calmness. Being excited in release mode can still contain an element of self control. So I don't really know what you're talking about, Corvus. The point is that the exercise is such as we might train our dogs to stay in a command. Whether it is taught for that purpose or for the purpose of being able to use it for calm and control is beside the point. Ergo (which is what I've been saying) the 'art' of a good reliable stay can and often is (for me, anyway) part of what I might do for dogs where I see its value in the rehabilitation of undesirable behaviour/s. So my answer to you would be yes - I do very similarly what Karen does, but not under the title of "Karen Overall's Protocol". :D A contradiction in terms with what you've just said. We ARE talking about stay work. A good solid stay involves calm and self-control. I like the dogs I train to be calm while doing what they are told. "Calm" meaning not panicked; not all over the place. When my dog is in a sit, he is calm, not panicked and not all over the place (he can't be, if he's in a sit). But he can be looking forward to being released and/or to the treat/reward that will following because he is demonstrating a calm sit. Who are "The Dog Scouts" ? I don't think I've heard of them before. Anyway - that's neither here nor there, I guess. I can only tell you what the "Protocol" is from Karen Overall's book that I have. Apart from that, my further comment would be that I understand the "focus" is not that it is a stay training drill. But the point is, it IS a stay exercise, just that it will be used foremostly to assist in behaviour modification.

Is it a case of forced rest for Pano dogs? Or is it ok for them to run around at will?

Are you saying you want showbags with "good bowls and leads and what not" in them (ie real stuff) ? Those sort of things aren't cheap and are big give away expectations . Or perhaps I misread the way you've written :D .

I hope it is something your dog can grow out of and that with or without help, is something that can be resolved