Erny

The OP asked for "Friendly Ears". I don't think we've supplied that very well - at least I don't think I have. But I would well presume the OP understands more about dogs from even just this one event and all our posts in response. I'm really sorry this has happened and it would be a very sad day for the ones to whom the GP's were pets. Even in that, there is a life's lesson that kids need to learn as they grow. It's hard to take their upset, but IMO it stands them in good stead to understand about nature and death later on.

Steve - Do you think if I donated a Pro-K9 Lead it would do well to sell on E-Bay?

Nice offer, Jerojath. How much would it cost to transport the dogs, Steve? Or is the distance out of the question?

Removed my post because it really as of no assistance at all. Thinking of you and Ollie dog and hope this resolves to nothing.

I agree with PF's suggestion of smacking your partner. Your partner is assuming the dog thinks like a human. Instead, he should learn to think like a dog. My favourite saying is "Dogs don't perceive themselves as living in a human world. They perceive us as living in theirs." Think that way, and maybe you'll see it from your dog's pov. No point leaving the dog out tonight if it's about punishing for the GP's. All your dog will know is that you and your partner are angry with him. But he won't know what for - and because the punishment would not be clear, it won't help his relationship with you. The guilt lays with not having a secure GP Hutch sturdy enough to withstand a dog. So, if we "think dog" here - what he's possibly learnt from that is that "Dog + GP's + Partner = Smacked Dog" ..... so maybe next time dog will destroy the evidence.

Ok - I don't wish to stand on anyone's toes here. Your trainer has met yourself and your dog, where I have not. So the first suggestion I would make would be to go back to your trainer and express your frustration and continuing difficulties (have you done that?) and see what additional instruction your trainer would suggest. I can tell you that I am able to empathise with you. I have moved through various training methods and training aids (in combination) before finding what worked best with my own boy in similar situations. Any anyone who knows me knows well that I am very aware and versed in the fantastic results the good use of an e-collar can bring, so this is not about the e-collar, but about whether the e-collar is right for the circumstance/s in which you are using it - at least for now. Sometimes we are in environments that are more intense than they should be to be able to expect our dogs to think clearly though, and that's when another method where you can achieve calm control of the unwanted behaviour is required. No - you can't go back to "0" on the Neutralisation scale once your dog has collected positives, but you can settle down the anticipation by changing Echo's expectations. At present he expects to receive attention/pats from people. Remove the chances of that happening and the anticipation (which is adding to the intense excitement) can be reduced. Just like many dogs go ape when they see their leads come out of the cupboard. The reason? Because every time the lead comes out it means they're going for a walk. "Lead" has become a reliable predictor of "Walk". If the owners frequently took the lead out and did nothing with it, the dog's excitement at the anticipation of what was to come would diminish somewhat. It's probably not quite as simplistic as that in your case, as the emotion involved by the dog towards people and/or other dogs can often be far more complex than just excitement, but it will do as a basic example, I think. When I know I'm going to take my boy into environments that are more crowded/intense than he's practised at and I don't want or need the distraction of people inviting themselves over to give a pat etc., I have my boy wear his "IN TRAINING" harness. I bought this from Steve Courtney (K9 Pro), if you're interested. I tend to find the formality of it produces a lot of 'space' respect that people might not normally think to give.

Take control. Have him outside or in a crate when your guest arrive. Wait until THEY settle. If Echo is also settled, bring him in, but have him on a lead so you can control him. If your guests won't listen to you pop him back in the crate or have him outside. You have in part, pointed out where some of your problem is : Work the "neutralisation" theory. This involves being around people but getting nothing out of them. And if your guests won't listen to you, why should they get to interact with Echo? So by removing reinforcement, he learns there is nothing to anticipate. I wouldn't use the E-Collar in the instance that you are. What methodology are you using it in - Negative Reinforcement/Low Stim or Positive Punishment/High Stim? I definitely would NOT use it as a Positive Punishment in this situation and instance. And I think you're expecting too much too soon (is he properly trained to understand what the stim is about?) without taking any control to guide him (and putting him under too much pressure) for R-/Low Stim to be successful. How old is Echo? Another good reason to keep it simple by keeping your dog away from people who will take no notice of you. Echo will be picking up on your tension.

Is this the ointment that is black in colour? If it is, then it is probably what my Dad uses on his own skin - he suffers a lot of skin cancer on his face and head. He's had surgery before, and that has left quite a number of 'craters' on his scalp, so deep did they need to cut in. But the skin cancer just keeps coming back. So he used the ointment with a good deal of success and in his opinion it has been the one thing that has helped him to avoid more surgery and skin grafts. The only thing that would bother me (somebody told me this could happen but I don't know the truth of it) was the possibility that the ointment would heal the part we see, but the rest would go unnoticed. I don't know if it works that way or not. However, one thing is for sure - in the absence of being able to continue with anything else, I'd give it a try. But this doesn't really help you as I'm not a Vet and my thoughts are only that - my thoughts and certainly not coming from any experience/knowledge base other than what I've mentioned above.

Oh dear . Your poor pup has been through the ringer with all the drugs and chemicals, hasn't he? I would give the Calendula a go. If it is going to help Oscar, you should notice improvement within the first 12 - 24 hours. A lot better than more assault with cortisone and the such like, if the Calendula will do the trick. I would also back off everything chemical, and if it were my dog, that would include any spot-ons and any vaccinations. No baths - nothing, save for the Calendula. Give his little system a chance to adjust itself and settle. ETA: Where abouts are you? The Health Food Stores (where you purchase Calendula) would be closed, but I have a little I can spare you to tied you over for today. ETA: This, until you get to see the Dermatologist.

I have just ordered a book written by Dr Jean Dodds and Diana Laverdure and recently published. The Canine Thyroid Epidemic: Answers You Need for Your Dog http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1617810169 Not sure if that would be helpful to you because I don't really know what's in it. I only know that I very much respect and trust the work and research Dr Jean Dodds has put into thyroid dysfunction in dogs and consequently feel it is worth getting for that reason alone.

Your friend will still need to learn how to exhibit calm and assertive leadership, regardless of dog.

And just as food for thought ..... did you and your wife look up at what your dog was worried about? It would be a natural thing to do, but your dog would look at you doing that and know there was something there to worry about. When I spot things my boy indicates concern about, I treat those 'things' as though they aren't there and carry on, business as usual - so to speak . Once your boy is ok with the torch, you should be able to point it anywhere without any trouble. It's doing it without making a point of doing it, that is the trick :D.

If the Breeder has any chance of re-homing to a more experienced home, then this might prove to be the best thing for this dog. If your friend does not have the knowledge or the ability to be the calm, confident leader this dog absolutely needs, then your friend would not be giving up on the dog by returning her, but giving the dog a chance at a home that might be better equipped to helping it become more stabilised, as much as it could be. This dog is not suitable as a "first" and its behaviour is not something that will do well with 'tinkering'.

Every time this dog bites it is learning the behaviour more and more. The dog's extreme behaviour needs some serious help.

How long has your friend had this dog? Assuming not for long, then my first piece of advice would be to ignore the dog. Care by feeding her and doing only what is absolutely necessary, but essentially without giving the dog direct attention, for obviously for this dog, attention is pressure. Your friend needs the dog to learn to trust your friend before your friend is going to be able to work with the dog. Avoid picking the dog up at this stage, but of course at some stage, the dog will need to learn to be handled. Your friend would do well with having a professional or someone with experience start out with her to teach her how to begin this. How I would begin would depend on the dog, but basically it would start with touch whilst treating with the other hand. And then adding (as an example) a guide, show, place hand techniques to a "sit" that has already begun and is happening with lure (and using lure simultaneously). And progressing from there. But as I said, not before the dog has come to trust your friend sufficiently for this. As a first dog, your friend has chosen a difficult subject and will require lots of learning and patience - this won't all come from the internet. Your friend needs to learn what it is to exhibit leadership, as this dog will absolute need that. It will be your friend's responsibility to give the dog a sense of protection by not allowing other people to cause the dog trauma. And by protection, I don't mean molly coddling in human fashion. I mean being calm, assertive in dog fashion. There are many books on the subject, but one that springs to mind is "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. I'd recommend your friend read that. Another book which might also prove helpful is "How to Speak Dog" by Stanley Coren, and/or "Canine Body Language" which is a photographic guide to dog language (body language) and its meaning, by Brenda Aloff. The latter is an excellent guide, but is considerably more expensive than the first. Your friend needs to learn to recognise her dog's signs that indicate stress, uncertainty, fear. There are many early signs of a dog not being comfortable about a situation before it gets to "wetting itself; emitting high pitched screams; biting". There is only so much that can be instructed over the internet and only so much less without direct informative responses by a dog's owner to the first steps and so, whilst there is much, much more to be done and investigated it would be prudent for your friend to engage a professional experienced with the dog's behaviour and its breed temperament to observe, discuss and advise. This does beg the question, though, of what the Breeder has advised and informed your friend and why the Breeder thought this dog would be suitable for a first-time dog owner? And what life experiences has this breeder provided the dog? ETA: Was typing this post whilst everyone else were posting theirs.

My own boy went through a phase where shadows spooked him. It was during what I believe was his 2nd fear impact period and I made a point of not having the torch light make more shadows. My boy has since come through this period and is much more settled and tends to ignore what he used to think was absolutely deserved of his attention and alarm. This could be something similar with your dog. It is where things that they might have known before become a bit scary to them, and things they've never known before are even spookier than they would be under similar circumstances. Your job is to have things so they don't represent as scary. Hence the "torch on before you and your dog leave the lights of the house" and keeping the torch shone down to the ground in front of your feet.

We tend to take so much for granted in assuming our dogs understand the things that we understand. Your dog simply doesn't know what the light is about and wouldn't have made a connection with it being from the torch in your wife's hands. Whatever you do, don't turn "spot the light" into a game, because although it might help him get over being worried about it, it also has the very real potential of turning into an obsessive compulsive behaviour (ie chase the light and try to catch it). Ask others whose dogs do this - often starting out by a game and then building to unsatisfied prey drive. Not that you were going to do this, but just in case you brought it out and this ended up being an inadvertent side-affect. Don't fuss on it too much, but give your dog a chance to understand the light is from the torch. Just use the torch as you need to, without making too much of a big deal about it. Avoid shining it upwards and of course not in his eyes - keep it pointed to the ground near your feet. Give your dog a food treat. Don't look or draw attention to the torch light. Only use the torch for what you need - no turning off and on to see if your dog is ok with it or worried about it any more. Just use it as you need to when you go out each night. If you make a deal of it, your dog will (continue to) think there is a deal to be made of it. ETA: It might also be helpful if you turn the torch on whilst you are still inside the house with the lights on and let your dog come out with you. The contrast might not be quite so astounding to him that way.

..... I am green with envy !!! I have one here who is only about 33 or 34 kgs who could do with more weight on him and I'm trying to feed him 2 cups of Z/D kibble and 5 cans of Z/D per day (or whatever combo works out to be the equivalent of approximately 7 cups of Z/D kibble per day). That's IF he'll eat that much. I know that our stories are different and that the reason for my trouble is my boy's digestive difficulties, but thinking on even just the financial side of things, I wish I had half your luck!

Yes - but Veterinary attention was only recent and perhaps the injury, without the Vet treatment and advice, has been exacerbating itself. Point is, I don't see the harm in conservative treatment provided it's not a case of unremarkable results and ongoing and ongoing treatment. I'd like to think, now that it has been a week, that there is obvious improvement and/or resolve by now. If not then I agree - waste no more time fudging around and conduct the necessary investigations that might lead to something more conclusive.

Probably because people are quicker and seem inclined to spend more energy on a complaint than they might on a compliment. And that's probably because they feel they deserve to be happy - which they are, it's what they are paying for. So why write up about it (unless someone asks for a recommendation)? - that seems to be how it goes. There are many nice stories about kennels just as there are hundreds of dogs who enjoy their stay and go home tired but happy.

Thanks Rappie. Monty has neither of those, as far as we would be aware. I only wish my own dog loved the Z/D as much as Monty does. Since Monty has come, my dog has had a whiff of what he gets fed and would much rather that . Mind you, I'm trying to use the "there's no more and I'll give it to Monty" trick, lol. Except Mandela is inclined to say "ok then". Feeding dogs in this household is a bit of a balancing act at the moment .

Just to be clear - I never mean nor meant for any treatment to go on and on and on and on.

Phew! Thank you both ;).

Hi ;) I'm looking after my sister's geriatric dog. I'll cut a long story short by simply saying that my sister's dog thinks the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, and will eat Mandela's Z/D kibble above his own home cooked mix of meat (variety) and vegies, along with nummies such as a sprinkling of cheese and more (what Mandela wouldn't give to be able to eat all of that stuff!!). He's only here for two and a half more weeks (I would not even be asking this question if he were with me long term) and I'm not suggesting that I should feed him Z/D without offering and encouraging him to eat his own food instead. But he is 15 years old and he is lean - which is good for his arthritis but means I don't really want him losing weight because of his refusal to eat all his food. So, as per the thread title - does anyone know if it is a bad thing for a dog who is not prescribed the Z/D diet to actually eat it? IOW, can it cause problems in a dog who doesn't have digestive problems?? PS - I even tried Monty on the other kibble that I have over from when I tried variations of what I could feed Mandela (Black Hawke; Royal Canin; Canidae) - but no, Monty really wants the Z/D kibble.

That isn't being protective. You need professional help asap. Agree with this - sorry, it was an important point that in my haste to leave for an appointment, I missed. Couple your dog's actions along with his age, I'm suspicious there is more 'out of balance' at home than meets the eye. A good behaviourist should be able to spot that and properly advise you. ETA: Read your last post - you have done an excellent job in acting so quickly ;) . Is it a trainer or trainer/behaviourist or behaviourist that you are getting out? Try not to stress too much - there may well be a good chance that matters won't come to the worst as you currently dread and it may not be all that bad. You're just doing all the right things at the moment to manage and prevent injury on the "just in case" basis that it could happen. Your trainer/behaviourist should be able to advise.