Kelpie-i

Not really Diablo. The danger comes from "tainting all with the same brush". Correct, we cannot read dog's minds but the reasons for their actions must come from a source. Whilst they are not complicated, it's really quite simple....emotion produces reaction (cause and effect). There should be no 'guess work' when working with aggression Diablo, but thinking that the only way to deal with aggression is with a quick, hard leash correction is extremely dangerous and very incorrect!

Based on information provided by Steward Hilliard when he was here in Australia many years ago doing a working dog workshop (Schutzhund)...he stated that ALL aggression has an element of fear, all to varying degrees. I aint gonna argue with the man. ETA, I spelt his name wrong!!

All aggression is fear based, whether it be a rank dog fearful of losing rank, fear of losing a resource or fear of something....it's all fear! Dogs fearful of things (other dogs/humans etc due to bad experience or lack of socialisation), normally become quite confident in their actions and will therefore project confident actions....but it's all still fear related. This is where mis-diagnosis and mis-management can very easily occur.

Don't allow Ollie off lead when at the park. The more he practices this behaviour, the better he will become at it as well as escalate. There are a number of trainers on this board (incl myself) who can help you, but it would depend on your location. Where are you located?

Except Kelpie-i keeps standing on their fins in the quick step . ETA: Are you using the TOT training in drive technique, K-i? :wave: Actually Erny, I reckon I could tie some brine shrimp to a piece of string and work them in drive

Done! A sad and despicable excuse of a human being

Would be interesting...I reckon I could 'train' my Angels (well at least try)...they have a lot of spunk! They 'dance' for me just before dinner time.

Just about everything we do here is draconian Erny. Our Vets don't even recognise that there may be some dogs with Hyperkinesis...we don't test nor recognise that it could be a possibility here in our dogs. I will be interested in knowing the results for this dog.

I'm not the expert on hypothyroid but I just wouldn't trust the testing system here. Wow, Erny...whoever this person is, I would have tried a different vet. Surely it cannot be that the recommendations of a well respected vet like Dr Dodds are shunned?

SAS, were the 2 dogs tested here in Oz or did the testing occur in the US? From what I have learned, there is a difference in levels and accuracy between the two.

Deleted....nevermind while I lose the plot

Teebs....is that you "Kavik"?? I've noticed a few people who have changed their DOL name...it must be something in the air

I use a muzzle on my kelpie when working small flocks of sheep. He tends to get a little nippy when working anything less than say 6 sheep (for some reason ). He does much better with a large mob. Nothing wrong with a muzzle at all, in fact I call it a piece of comforting "insurance".

Each individual trainer will have their preferred methods that (as far as they are concerned) are tried and true. There really is no right or wrong and it all depends what you are training for, ie to create, increase or decrease a behaviour. There are 'die hards' on all fields whether it be those who use only food and/or those who believe food is bribery and does not belong in training (these are very old values but some out there still feel this way). I think the people here on DOL enjoy a debate and discussing (and sometimes arguing ) over things they believe strongly about and/or methods that they swear by. Not just that, there are many different new things be learned and ponder. The quadrants seem to be one of them, especially which "side" of the quadrant you sit on. If the average Jo wants to teach something new to their dog, I would say use what works for that dog. Going onto Google to find how to teach a dog to rollover is a good way to find the myriad of techniques available to achieve this. It could help you or it could confuse you, depending on the way you interpret the information and your application of the technique. A trainer and/or someone who works with dogs on a daily basis, it is important to know and understand the learning theory of the animal as well as have a tool box of methods to be able to use effortlessly, so continued research, discussion with peers and experimenting is important.

Yes...we also do this with luring and shaping by SA. Although some trainers see "luring" as the devill re-incarnate

Hi Bub.............. (feels like I'm talking to my OH ) I'm going to try to stay on track here for you.... Nekhbet covered off on the what the quadrants are and just to add to that, they are usually refered to when discussing learning theory. The words "negative" and "positive" are scientific based, meaning to remove and to add, as was explained. This is why you will see some write them as P+ or -P etc. The above are not so much "methods" or "techniques" of training but rather facets involved in learning. You can refer to the quadrants when discussing the learning theory of any organism, including humans and other animals. When you talk techniques you might discuss things like luring, shaping, guiding all of which may include 1 or more constituents of the quadrant. These are your methods/techniques for creating the behaviours. The quadrants refer to the reinforcment or punishment schedules used in conjunction with the techniques to either increase or decrease behaviours. I hope that clarifies it for you somewhat and I am sure that others will add or refine the above.

Same here, it's obviously used quite differently on DOL. Interesting the perceptions of what a "balanced" trainer is. I think most of the trainers on this board, whatever term they wish to use to describe their methods, will always use, and prefer to use, reward based methods with all the dogs they work with. No one goes up to a dog and thinks "hey what sort of punishment/aversive" will I use on this dog. I think I speak for many when I say, the first thought most trainers think is "what motivates and drives this dog...what rewards will he work for?".

Staranais you are completely correct. Terminology and how it is interpreted is the problem. Whatever you label yourself, it's going to be misinterpreted by someone. The quote above is from the written piece provided by Kewshwar and it clearly demonstrates the writer's lack of knowledge of what a "balanced" trainer is. This sort of garbage is what provides readers with an incorrect description of the way balance in training works. Until such blinkered people stop writing this sort of crap, there is absolutely no chance of ever setting the record straight. Instead of writing what they perceive a "balanced" trainer to be, they perhaps should go and have a look at one in action. No shite Sherlock!!! This sort of muck can only come from a PP trainer.

Ingrained stock or wildlife chasing. Try being more interesting than a fleeing rabbit. I tried that once, long ago. Never tried it again SSM, I woudn't advocate chasing stock or wildlife..they are much faster than you are and you could stumble and fall sorry, sick humour

Corvus..what do you mean by this? Who's doing the training here?

The term "balanced" denotes the use of both side of the quadrants - punishment and reinforcement - both positive and negative...... (yes here we go again!!). Hear hear PF

Corvus, it all depends on what you are training for. Please excuse me as I am not as eloquent when I write as the others...but I know what I want to say A dog's learning isn't too much different to our own learning so if we go back in time to when we were...say 7 years old, our parents did one of 2 things to teach us right from wrong. You would either be rewarded with TV and ice cream if you cleaned your room but you would get a smacked bottom if you answered back (especially to Dad). We all 'feared' dad yet we loved and respected him for the lessons he taught us. I don't know about you, but I learned my lesson very quickly this way and have grown up to be a well balanced individual (well I hope so anyway ). I applied the same techniques with my son (who is now 16 years old) and who is extremely well behaved and polite...oh and respects authority. Now let's go back to dogs... Creating or maintaining behaviours: positive reinforcement only Eliminating learned behaviours (not due to fear): a balanced approach, teaches clear 'black and white' consequences and shows the dog where his advantages lie. Results occur far quicker. It's not complicated and it shouldn't be...just like us, dogs learn by way of consequences - good and bad. This is what balance is all about..it's in our lives everyday as is in our dog's lives.

Is it a Herm Sprenger?

What sort of bark does he give out SK? High pitched or low?

I agree Staranais, doesn't sound like distance increasing behaviour judging by the OP's initial post. Here she writes that her dog was able to walk past other dogs without a problem. Fear issues which result in distance increasing behaviours do not happen overnight. ETA....that is if no major traumatic episode has occurred since.