Kelpie-i

I was once told, by a very good source, that the training of Greyhounds does involves "wins", despite what people want to believe. Interesting about the "never win" idea, will have to look into it a little further. I believe it would depend on the dog you are working with.

So sorry to hear DW. Hugs to you.

I agree with Erny. Stress levels in a dog have a lot to do with the general 'performance' of a dog when outside of their comfort zone. Work at distance and work on getting the dog comfortable in the environment you wish to train in BEFORE expecting the dog to accept a tug/reward etc. Corvus, I was listening to a Leslie McDevitt podcast and what she says is very interesting about behaviours in dogs when in stressful environments. "Over processing" I think she calls it....similar to watching 20 different televisions at the same time...too much to take in thereby causing high levels of anxiety, over-reactivity and/or complete shut down. I haven't read her book but it's certainly on my list. On the podcast which was a few years old, she mentions a DVD, has she brought this out yet?

I have always been in the belief that a purebred is one that has both parents of the same breed,that is maltese x maltese etc.The pups produced from that are then purebred? Tdierikx-Well I dare say the pet shops would sell them at at more higher price here. Katdogs- Gotta love the name Multi-shits.Yes I can see the problem with people wanting the cute,fluffy adorable little dogs & then dumping them after that.I think its like that with all types of dogs(esp pups) though.But this sort of dog esp,cos I rung another advirtiser and this is what she played on with her 2 litters she had up for sale. Yes correct. Sorry must have confused you.... A purebreed dog has 2 pure breed parents of the SAME BREED ie. PB Maltese + PB Maltese = Purebreed Maltese A cross breed dog has purebreed parents of DIFFERENT BREEDS ie. PB Maltese + PB Shih Tzu = Maltese x Shih Tzu A mongrel has mixed breed parents ie. Maltese/Shih Tzu + Maltese/JRT (or any other breed, wheter distinguishable or not) = Mongrel Hope that makes sense.

A cross breed is a dog that is bred by crossing 2 pure breeds together. A mongrel is a dog who's parents are both either cross breeds themselves and/or of many different breeds. A Maltese x Shih Tzu is a cross breed dog, not a mongrel....provided that either parent was a pure breed of each.

I shudder every time clients bring their young children to dog training. We have very strict rules about young kiddies attending and most parents understand that it is their responsibility to supervise their kids and instruct them not to approach dogs. But there are some parents who allow their children to wonder around the training venue, left to their own devices and expect the trainers to 'babysit'. One client's young 5 year old daughter got lost and he blamed us for not watching where she went. Luckily she was found within the grounds. Whether at a dog training school or even a hairdressing salon (with or without dog present), as a parent it is your responsibility to supervise and keep your child/children controlled at all times. No exceptions and no excuses! I am 'on the fence' when it comes to taking dogs to work (if working in a professional place like an office or retail store). Unless you have a bomb proof dog that is socialised at ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING and has no behavioural issues, then that dog belongs at home.

Wow, how amazing and extremely inspirational!! Lovely story, thanks heaps for sharing

Me likes this saying....me steal it from you I think it would be number 3 and number 1 as well. Both her stops and recalls are fine when working therefore I really do think she may be feeling a bit of pressure and looks for an escape route as well as not understanding which sheep she is supposed to be working. Yes I think the terminology is certainly different, but I'm beginning to understand your terminology SS. I have never had the change to get to a Greg Prince workshop and yes I have heard he is excellent. We used to work/train our Kelpies with Paul McPhail many years ago but as I mentioned, have not had the chance to do this over the last few years.

With the recent heat we've had in Melbourne, it wouldn't surprise me if she is digging holes and lying in them to keep cool. Many dogs do this (mine do) as the earth underneath can be quite cool. If she isn't lying in the holes and is just digging them due to boredom, then the problem is not your dog, but rather the exercise and stimulation level you are providing. The designated digging area is a good idea...if she is doing this due to boredom.

What are the ingredients (and volume thereof) of Jointguard?

Agree entirely with the sentiments of others re good and bad PPS. I would also add that Ausdog are a franchise that do not run classes, just private training, therefore I believe this to be more of a marketing ploy on their behalf. Not entirely correct (highlighted part) since the critical socialisation period is the first 16 weeks, not 18 weeks. Scientific data has shown that 80% of the puppy's brain growth ( ie, makes the relevant cell connections) based on the various exposure provided to the puppies, occurs in the first 16 weeks of life. The remaining 20% occurs from 17 weeks to 12 months, in which time the growth rate of the brain slows down significantly.

Wow, that's fantastic work from your dog. Did you train him yourself? I suppose this is one of the reasons why some will pay top dollar for a well trained dog, they are worth every penny and more. So when are you coming down to do a workshop for us...hmmm??

Thank you, thank you shortstep, this is a much clearer definition and it makes perfect sense. I can see how the dog would learn discrimination of the different mobs with this method and as mentioned, would have probably come in very handy.

Thanks Jesomil, that clears things up. Admittedly, we did not do any sort of training like that, perhaps it could of come in handy if we had. In which level Jesomil? I've seen dogs lose points because they jumped fences and worked sheep that they weren't supposed to. One such occurred a few years ago at Warrigul trials in the Encourage level and the judge made it very clear that it was no acceptable.

I am not sure how to take the tone of your post shortstep, but it certainly is coming accross aggressive. I merely asked for some input but clearly you are assuming I was on the offensive with you. The problem was not the redirects on the cast, nor was it the cast itself. She has a lovely and controlled cast and understands her positions. Again, the problem only occurred when she was working a small flock of say 5 sheep in a small round yard. Next door, there was a larger flock of say 20 sheep. She would be working the smaller flock for a little while without fault and would suddenly think to herself that this is boring and jump the fence to get to the larger flock. Sorry for my ignorance shortstep, but I fail to see how re-directs either on cast or whilst fetching is going to stop her from jumping the fence. Once she's off, she was off. Did she feel she needed to jump the fence because she knew better and her instinct was to gather the other sheep?? Who knows...the fact of the matter was she did it a number of times and even the herding trainer that we worked with (who is extremely well respected here in Victoria and around Australia) stated that she was doing this because it was self rewarding. "She is being a little shit" were his exact words. Dogs, whether it be in sport, obedience or just at home, will do things that are rewarding to them. Behaviours that are self reinforced/rewarded and come with what we term a "life reward" are much harder to remove compared to behaviours that are reinforced/rewarded with non-life rewards. In this case, her reward (to herself) was to jump the fence and work the larger mob of sheep rather than continuing her work with 5 sheep in a small yard. On the other hand, when out in the paddocks with a much larger flock, she was flawless. Never crossed, split sheep nor pushed too hard. If she was told to re-direct and/or come around she would. She is also a natural backing dog with good presence and push in the race.....although we haven't done too much with her with this. The problem was only in the small round yard. I hope that is clearer now. Well if you really want to get technical it is Positive Punishment which forms part of the motivational matrix in the theory of learning.....but if you read my post properly, I did state that the method was not something you would recommend in a book. We had a problem that needed to be rectified and this is what was suggested to us and it worked...also it most certainly did not handicapped her in any way since she is a good dog with sturdy nerves and whilst not currently trialling, has placed well in a number of trials in the past. Where, exactly, did I state this shortstep??? I would suggest you re-read the entire thread and refrain from putting words in my 'mouth'. If you will.. I stated that farmers do not need fingers pointed at them, rather they need guidance and support if they seeked it. Nowhere did I mention that they don't understand modern dog training methods AND nowhere did I say I was an expert on sheep herding. But I will defend the role of the working dogs in this world and will defend the people that have devoted generations to breeding, training and using these dogs. The very dogs that you and I now enjoy. You might learn a lot if you gave some of these folks the respect they deserve. No-one was berating the dogs either. This is one of the reasons I own 2 working kelpies. I love their intelligence, their spunk and their drive. I know and have regularly frequented with many farmers and breeders of Kelpies...some who have been working and trialling dogs for a lifetime and who possess an abundance amount of knowledge. I will take my advice from them and have no hesitation in singing their praises. Now, if we can get back to the original topic of this thread.

I agree on your first point but I also believe it would also depend on the sort of trials you are training for. As you know, yard trial levels especially Encourage do not require the dog to jump over fences. In fact it would be seen as the dog being out of control and lose points as a result. It would also depend on the sort of dog you are working ie soft or hard tempermented. Having said that, I would be interested to learn how you would make a dog that is absolutely hellbent on jumping fences, understand that this is not required at the moment using alterntive methods that won't handicap the dog. Genuinely curious. I am not sure who "they" are that you refer to shortstep? Owners/handlers or trial judges? Saving Grace in a real work situation....most definitely. But there is no denying that there are some extremely arrogant bastards out there who work purely for themselves even in the hands of very capable handlers who need to continuosly work keep these dogs in line. You've obviously trialled before, what level did you get to? I am definitely no expert in this field and unfortunately haven't been able to attend a trial for a few years now due to the dog training business but I do intend to get back into it soon.

I believe Iams (who also manufacture Euk) are manufactured in the US and imported to Australia. I am not sure of the rendering laws here in Australia but in America, it is not a regulated industry. The only country that has strict regulations on rendering animal meat is Japan.

shortstep, we were training for trials so this behaviour is undesirable. Unfortunately there weren't 300 acre paddocks, just small round yards with sheep in each adjoining yard used for holding. Kelpies are just too smart for their own good sometimes.. I've gotta go out now but I'll come back to this SS, I'd like to pick your brain if that's okay

Corn Meal is a filler: Is the dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the stach and germ and the separaton of the bran Chicken By-Product Meal: Made of clean ground and rendered parts of slaughtered poultry including necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines. Sometimes feathers and beaks make their way into the mix. Dried Beet Pulp: The dried residue from sugar beet, added for fibre but primarily is sugar. Chicken Fat: Added to make the food more enticing to your dog. Fats from chicken come from a process called *Rendering. To find out how this fat is obtained, read further: The Rendering Process: Obtained from leftovers from the slaughterhouses which can also include various euthanised animals such as dogs and cats. Renderers will usually combine all ingredients into one vat and do not normally check to see what is being combined. This means that whilst most of the leftovers might be from chicken, it could also include other animals such as road kill, dead pets, their collars, styrofome boxes and plastic bags. The rendering machine slowly grinds the entire mess in huge vats and cooked at 104 to 132 degrees celcius for up to 1 hour. The mixture is centrifuged (spun very quickly) and the grease/fat rises to the top and is removed from the mixture. The fat becomes the source of the animal fat in most pet foods. Source: "Foods pets die for" written by Ann M Martin. It's no wonder these foods are making our dogs sick!!

From memory, I think he stated that he starts them at 7 weeks but not on sheep (??). I've always been told that the best time to start pups WITH sheep is around 7 weeks to test instincts and to nuture the natural herding instinct. I will have to re-watch the episode another time and try to take in more of what was said. Aidan that is unfortunately true. This is why attending workshops with experts in their field can be invaluable to actually see what and how to do it. My OH's Kelpie bitch would jump the fences into the next paddock where there was always a larger mob of sheep to be worked. This behaviour would cost her points in a trial so it needed to be stopped.....but how?? She was self rewarding each time she jumped into the other paddock. We figured out that she would jump at a particular point along the fence line and so a bunch of us hid behind the hessian sack covering. As soon as she jumped, we also jumped up and took her by surprise. This scared her enough that she ceased the behaviour. Probably not the sort of technique you would write in a "how to" book, but it worked and it didn't cause her any harm either physically or psychologically (only that she no longer jumped the fences during work).

Which top selling dog from Casterton are you referring to KC? There have been a few stories come out of Casterton "top selling" dogs. We owned one of them a few years ago before it was sold at Casterton.

There are working dog workshops popping up in most parts of Australia these days which, I believe, have provided many with the opportunity to learn more about handling and training their working dogs. I think the problems come from those older farmers who are set in their ways and will dare not take direction from some pen pushing, city dwelling office workers about which methods to use for training their dogs. These guys have been doing things their way for decades, obviously learning from their fathers etc etc. Resistence to change is inevitable but at least it's a start in the right direction. And it's not just e-collars, anything can be used to punish a dog.....and yes I agree with 4Kelpies, e-collars are definitely used in some instances, albeit incorrectly. As to the welfare of the dogs, well again this comes down to what has been the 'norm' for many decades as well. When you consider that some working dogs are purchased for $50 from Harry down the road, it's quite obvious that there isn't a high monetary interest to the farmer. He's not about to go out and spend a fortune on bedding, feed and fancy collars. It's a different way of thinking for some unfortunately. Some pay thousands of dollars for trained dogs. Are these dogs looked after any better....who knows?? I know of one dog that was purchased for $5000 and was accidentally run over by the new owner a week later. Dog was sleeping under the truck and owner didn't know he was there. Whilst this was an unfortunate accident, I know that if I'd paid $5000 for a dog, I'd be housing him in the Penthouse suite.

Absolutely brilliant post shortstep :p except.... Uhhhum

Thanks for the info Aidan. The Dept of Agriculture hey.....I wont' hold my breath then! Having said that however, if something was to come of the survey, it would be a great welcome to those who are interested in the help.

Panda Girl, I completely understand that you may be sticking with this particular vet for financial reasons but to be honest, they sound somewhat useless and not willing to delve a little further and suggest an MRI or other type of scan to see if there is any injury to the brain or neck that could be posing the problem. Aggression doesn't develop for no reason. Any good Vet worth their weight would surely know this and take this into consideration. I would look for another vet pronto. I would also definitely consider doing the Thyroid tests that Erny suggested via Jean Dodds in America. There is no point running another lot of 'tests' for thyroid here in Australia as they are likely to use the same laboratory in your state, therefore there would be no difference in result. We are extremely backward in our testing range here in Oz for these types of things. If you are not sure how to go about this, PM me and I can help you through the steps. It's not a difficult process at all. I trust you will make the right decision here PG for the sake of your dogs and your sanity.