Kelpie-i

SM, I think you make a very important point....the handler of a DA dog should not be backward in coming forward about their dog. Let everyone know that you need space!!. If you need to yell "Stop" then do so. I think too many DA dog owners can be somewhat shy, perhaps even a little embarrassed which doesn't do them any favours. BTW, hard to believe that the dogs pictured in both mine and your avatars are brothers!!! Although this is a very old pic of Gabe. Different in looks but same in personality. Cash is the handsome one of the 2. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Erny it was .5 second not 5 second

I'm thinking a little more about this now and I'll try to explain what I am thinking.... Wouldn't using the one by one method keep the dog calmer and more focussed as opposed to using the all in one method whereby you tend to get really excited along with the dog? The latter almost signals the end of training, even if it isn't. If jackpotting for, say, the dog choosing to look away from another dog/distraction and looking at you instead, in this case you might want to use the one by one so that he maintains the focus. In the case of a super-dooper recall, say the dog coming away from another dog, you might want to use the all in one approach as the jackpot but then I don't want to dog to eat all the treats and walk off. I want to keep him with/around me, so in which case I administer treats one on one, on a slower schedule. This would be jackpotting too??!!! Have I confused everyone yet :rolleyes:

Thanks guys. I think it's what the dog perceives as a jackpot which is the most important rule, I suppose. One by one most certainly keeps focus for longer and allows the dog to 'savour' each treat, but I also think some dogs will see the handful in one go as the jackpot. It's interesting what you read and also what others believe a jackpot to be. There is obviously no right or wrong here, just interested in your views.

Yeah but when do you use what and why??

Okay this is something that I have been stewing over for a while now. I thought I had the art of "jackpotting" treats down to an art, until the Brenda Aloff conference where she recommended differently. Then I read an article written by Karen Pryor which states that jackpotting should be done as per the method I was already using, so now I am curious to know what everyone else does. Jackpotting as per casino slot machine win: Ie giving handfuls of yummy treats all in one go! Jackpotting as per casino win with the dollars falling from the slot machine ie. one by one with .5 second intervals. Both are jackpots and both would have the desired effect....what do you do???

.In Brenda's "Aggression in Dogs" book, it explains how to recognise the micro-behaviours seconds before the explosion of a fight. You never want to get the dog to the final point, which is why recognising the various micro-behaviours before the 'final siren' is extremely important. You can only effectively interrupt if they are still in the early stages of interaction. Having said that, the interruption should be a noise/sound that has been thoroughly conditioned to the dog to mean something good. With DA dogs we do loads of Name Recognition exercises because the aim is to condition the dog to turn it's head towards the owner as soon as it hears its name (Pavlovian). Using other things that are not familair to the dog ie. whistle or even a word like "ball" or "frisbee" may work but I believe they too should be conditioned to achieve the desired result.

Sounds like the vet may want to get an extra consult fee from you Only need 3 vaccinations, not 4. Why over-vaccinate?? No need! Immunity is developed after the 2nd vaccination. There is also a new brand of vaccinations that only require 2 shots....I forget the name.

Jaybeece if I tell you, I'm going to have to kill you We are in the process of finalising the decision of which venue. Should be up and running by mid 09.

ILK, using physical (lead) corrections to manage dog aggression is not a good idea. Firstly you are punishing the dog for being in an emotional state. When the dog is aggressing, barking etc, it is doing so for an emotional reason, ie it is fearful and it is displaying the only behaviour he knows will make the threat go away. Using corrections on a dog like this, is like me hitting someone over the head with a piece of 2 x 4 whenever they screamed at a spider or snake (or whatever they are fearful of). Yes lead corrections might make the dog stop the growling or lunging (if done hard enough) but we are not changing the emotional state of the dog. Therefore we infact have a ticking time bomb on our hands that can go off any time. This dog has not learned any coping strategies and has not learned any other conditioned responses to the triggers. The only thing we have done is punish him for giving us any warning signals to tell us he is not comfortable......WE NEED THOSE WARNING SIGNALS!! It is the only form of communication from the dog to us. This is why we see so many dogs that simply lunge and bite without ever giving a warning growl or some sort of signal beforehand...because we have punished them for doing so. Those dogs who end up romping around with other dogs after a couple of leash corrections never really had true dog aggression based on an emotional fear to start with. Their aggression may have been due to other reasons that did not have a deep rooted emotional base. Genetic based aggression is the worst to deal with as we can never "cure" it...only manage it and "mask" it the best we can.

Ruthless, I will PM you. We are not a volunteer based club, rather a 'private' school, therefore all of my instructors are paid for their time according to their experience level. Our fees are much higher than a volunteer club's fees unfortunately, but I like to believe our clients are getting their money's worth.

me too Me three please!!! We went to one of your obedience classes as part of NDTF and I was very impressed. Thank you guys. My sister lives in Sydney and she is always harping at me to move there...but I love Melbourne too much ;) It's only a 10 or so hour drive each week (oh and back again :p )

We take aggressive dogs at our school but they must firstly undergo a private session with myself or one of my other instructors before they come to class. This is so we can make an assessment as to the extent of the aggression, talk to the owner about leadership, critical distance and also implement various foundation exercises that will later become "alternative" behaviours for the dog. We discuss equipment, tactics and strategies during the 1:1 sessions. I leave them to work on the exercises for a week and then they commence in the classes. Once they commence in the classes, they are not positioned amongst the 'thick' of the class. Rather they continue to work on their foundation exercises at critical distance point. Instructors and floaters will check on them constantly. We monitor progress on a regular basis and make changes as we need to. We also run a "problem dogs' class once per month for those people with aggressive dogs. These classes have been extremely beneficial as we discuss each dog's critical distance, work on backaways, focus and show owners what to do if they end up too close and their dog reacts. These classes have been a very valuable part of the management strategy for aggressive dogs and we have seen some excellent improvement in both the dogs and the owner's confidence and handling. As long as you are being guided correctly by professionals and shown what to do each step of the way, there is nothing wrong with attending group classes with your aggressive dog. It is probably the only way you are able to train and work with your dog in a controlled environment, allowing you to re-socialise, desensitise and learn to manage the problem around what your dog has a problem with....other dogs!

Agree Erny....good to see us Melbournians getting a go!! These things mostly happen in Sydney.

Sounds like a learned and repeatedly reinforced behaviour, which is all too common in the 'puppy and kids' scenario. Where there are young kids with young pups, jumping, mouthing and chasing behaviours will occur/develop. Young children must be taught how to behave around dogs and if they are too young to comprehend, then best to either keep them away or keep them under adult control at all times. Children running, screaming and waving arms around will only entice the puppy even more, therefore I tell my client's children (if over the age of say 5 or 6) to 'make like a tree" whenever the puppy jumps. If there are siblings, then I get them to compete with each other as to who can stand still the longest. Works like a dream as they really try to compete with one another. The other thing is to teach young children how to play with the puppy. If the adult can teach or encourage the pup/dog to fetch, then this is a good, non-aggressive way the children can play with the dog. If all else fails and the dog (when much bigger than the kids) continues to jump/mouth, the old "water bottle" dog trainer works well too. It's a case of training the children as much as the dog. The emphasis is always on what the dog is doing wrong, we need to look at what the humans are doing wrong too. I like what Vickie wrote as these are the same rules in our household whenever children come to visit.

Hi bret, I think it's best if you just let time work things out. It may take your older dog a little while to get used to the new puppy and therefore it is unrealistic for you to expect her to be bouncing with joy (just because you are). Keep an eye on things whilst they are together and make sure that the puppy is not bothering Maiya too much. Engage in a game of fetch or whatever Maiya likes so that she associates the new pup with something she good as well as still being able to get some "dad" time with you. You will find that in time, Maiya will start to accept the new dog in the home. Remember, the dynamics in your household will change now, therefore stepping up your leadership skills and treating both dogs as equals is extremely important. Set rules and boundaries for both dogs and be consistent with them. You will thank yourself later.

Whatever is easier Midol. Would probably prefer DVD compatible but again, whatever is easier for you. Let me know when ready and I'll PM you my mailing address. I will reimburse you for postage. Thanks heaps Midol. It will be very interesting to watch, especially the e-collar one.

Hey Midol, any chance of ripping an extra set for me?? I don't have any of his DVDs and am interested in watching to see what you are talking about? I am happy to pay for blank DVDs and your time.

Kavik I first saw food spitting on an old video from Joanne Plumb who trains (or trained) schutzhund dogs back in the 80's. I haven't heard of Leigh either.

Interesting Midol. I personally don't have too much interest in Leerburg and the fact that he labels everything as a "drive" but why don't you like his work?

What, do you mean AS the 3 course meal?? 1st course: Scones 2nd course: Jam 3rd course: Cream That'll be right How am I supposed to grow tall if I don't get a decent breakfast

Yep got the flyer. Already booked and paid for. I'll see whom ever is going from DOL there! Erny, keep away from the 3 course breakfast.....It's all mine...grrrrrr!

PF Did you guys read the 'conversation' between Frawley and Leigh? Quite interesting....lots of swearing!

Yeah...waiting....waiting....waiting....waiting

Persephone, I will type up a quick process for counter conditioning to collar grabs and lead tension in the next few days as it will take a little more time to write than I have at the moment. The emergency shut down maneuvre is one that was shown to us by Brenda Aloff at her recent seminar. Again it will need some conditioning and it is used mainly once the dog has already aggressed and/or the "locking on" is intent and you don't have any other options left. It's best if you purchase Brenda's new book "Get Connected" as it explains it in there.