Mushaka Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 U know Vickie,i HAVE wondered if im not getting the same response as she is the baby of 3 dogs. As in,she might have formed stronger bonds with them than with me. Could this be the case? Should i try more one on one time with her?? What do u suggest?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 no hackles up..i just wanted to makeit clear before we continued,that if i question..its from want of learning..not to be a smart ass!! So many times things,as u have done now,are taken the wrong way. I wanted to clear that up before i continued my questionin with Vickie,who seemed to know alot about this subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 With regards to her recall...i have a LARGE family .. there is 7 permanents and a few more ring ins in my house. I worry that they do the wrong thing with training my dogs...such as yellin thier names wen disciplining etc.. I have a big sign on my front door asking that people make no contact with my dogs.. but my husband is the worst.. And he cant be trained lol.. i think that maybe she is confused with so many people not on the same page!!! Its drving me insane!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 (edited) no hackles up..i just wanted to makeit clear before we continued,that if i question..its from want of learning..not to be a smart ass!! So many times things,as u have done now,are taken the wrong way. I wanted to clear that up before i continued my questionin with Vickie,who seemed to know alot about this subject Well if so many times, you have been taken the wrong way perhaps its not us but the way with your words You mentioned you were sick of crap.....in this thread i cant see any of that, i am not a mind reader, so dont know what threads you were thinking off Anyway, good luck with training your dog. Edited October 10, 2007 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 no hackles up..i just wanted to makeit clear before we continued,that if i question..its from want of learning..not to be a smart ass!! So many times things,as u have done now,are taken the wrong way. I wanted to clear that up before i continued my questionin with Vickie,who seemed to know alot about this subject No I am no expert. I am happy with what I get from my dogs & have attended many performance seminars & see the same thing over & over again. I don't know the answer to yoiur questions, I think it would be very hard for anyone to assess without seeing you & your dog/s. Have you been to see a trainer? I spent the last 2 days at a seminar. There were a few dogs there who were giving very mediocre performances. In all cases, the issue was addressed by changing the way the handler treated the dogs. Each dog went from mediocre at the start to the point where they basically gave up/shut down/threw a tantrum. By half way through the 2nd day, when they realised their tantrum wasn't working, they started to work. By the end of the 2nd day, they were all working, I mean really working. It was quite amazing to watch & certainly showed the value in consistency AND in treating a dog like a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 I am with Erny and Tangwyn on this one.On balance I want the pack driven pup. If you have the right genetics they will come through with all the drive you want. Once you get past a certain drive the rest is wasted. In retrieving trials they give ten points for style eagerness and action after that its just wasted as its not a speed competition and more oppotunity fo rthings to go wrong. Speed is very different to drive. Persistance is different to drive. Slow to learn is different to drive. You need a balance between prey drive and pack drive. I have tried all the puppy testing, had the crazed retriever, (Zephie)now I look for the pup that gets under my feet. If the genetic base is there you will have a hard going pup anyway. country joe. Hi, Country Joe, darling, um..........what is your interpretation of pack drive??? and how is this achieved, bonding when young, brushing, clear fair obedience? Peppa LOL??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 (edited) Tried all the get down all fours YEEHHAAAAAA...sure the neighbours think im a crazy lady,kinda talk..NOT really fussed!!I mean sure,she MIGHT sometimes get excited,but only if she is already in hyper puppy mode. I would use this to my best advantage then and get all excited with her at that point. I usually find that if you work with their drive when they are hyper (when you first come home, going for walks etc) you can 'build' the drive and slowly begin to use it when you want it etc. Does that make sense? She used to LOVE her cuz toy,..but she's over it now...and even then she wasnt driven by it.. as in..if i took it away she just went "oh well,seeya"..didnt come begging for more! I find this the hardest bit - because here, we have to quit when the game is just getting fun!!! It sounds easy to say 'end while the dog wants more' - but even this weekend just past, I noticed in myself that I was going past that peak of 'wanting' more. When I stopped, the dog was a little 'well that was a good game!" but not "NOOOOO don't stop, bring it back, where is that toy!!!".... This week i've really been focusing on ending the game at "Peak" which is usually the point when I would think to myself "yipee - we are getting somewhere, lets keep going!"... it's made a world of difference ending at that point. You may also find that with some toys, that peak lasts longer etc... with a tug - it's a very quick game with Leo, longer with Kinta. A ball with Leo and we NEVER get to the point where he says 'yep, enough of that'.... it's always "gimmedaball" repeated chant-like Kinta on the other hand - it depends what she is retrieving Her recall used to be great,but for some reason,she is now selectively deaf... This will come as you build up her interest in the things you offer - thereby making yourself more interesting :cool: Vickie: Some people stifle driveSome people encourage drive Some people tap into the wrong drive Some people fail to recognise the right drive I agree with this. I don't think I used to stifle drive, but I didn't really encourage it . Now, because I have a goal/ idea of what i'm after, I can encourage the types of drive I want - I've found that since doing this, my dogs enthusiasm/ interest in me alone has increased 10fold. Edited October 10, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushaka Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 i did use the taking the toy at peak with my older staffy..this worked well. I think i just have to remove the other dogs completley. Im going to head dwn to the beach today and just take her. Let her off lead (its a secure beach) and practise her recall and see how well she follows me etc. She seems to wonder off wth others,which is a problem i havent faced with other dogs either. Even with older rescues!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
country joe Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 Hi, Country Joe, darling, um..........what is your interpretation of pack drive??? and how is this achieved, bonding when young, brushing, clear fair obedience? Peppa LOL??? My simple interpretation (I have never completed a dog training course) of pack drive is a pup that wants to be with you. There is prey drive but it is tempered with biddability. There is a natural inclination of the dog to check back, to show awareness of you. Steve Hall and I have discussed this in the past. Charlie Ball was of the same opinion. He told me 25 years ago get a friendly pup the breeding will take care of itself. It only took me 20 years to listen Yes, Pepper has it. (and she is certainly no slouch in the field working) The breeding is there. For how it is achieved, as I said I now look for the friendliest pup in the litter. then we should try to apply all the things you mention. You have a great dog in Pepper. I saw that on the weekend. It is the first time I have really stood there and watched what that girl is really about. I think she may be getting a bit overwhelmed in the pack. I know you like the high drive and there is no doubt you have it in the boys. My personal view is. If Pepper was taken to some trials on her own, you would in very short order have a retrieving trial champion. Wayne P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 For me - high drive constitutes a high drive for *something* - i've been lucky as both of my dogs go nuts for food/ toys and attention. Ah! My definition of drive is different to that. Drive to me is the want to do things overall. A high drive dog to me is one that is constantly wanting to do things (high phyiscal and mental stimulation needs I guess). Hmmm....now I've read it, perhaps I'm talking activitiy levels not drive. My dogs will go totally spastic nutso for at least one thing each but ones low drive and the other 3 moderate IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 For me - high drive constitutes a high drive for *something* - i've been lucky as both of my dogs go nuts for food/ toys and attention. This bit was in answer to what type of drive i'm looking at when I consider high drive - in the sense that it isn't necessarily just food/toys/ attention The biggest thing for me is that the dog will go to the ends of the earth for this one thing. and by that I mean they put their heart and soul into whatever they are doing, full of enthusiasm and pizazz all because of the reward at the end. This is what I deem as 'high drive' (although I may very well be wrong :cool: ) Ah! My definition of drive is different to that. Drive to me is the want to do things overall. A high drive dog to me is one that is constantly wanting to do things (high phyiscal and mental stimulation needs I guess). Do what and to what level? A dog may want to 'do' something but only at moderate speed etc. I tend to believe that a dog won't simply want to 'do' something just because, but they want to 'do' it for the rewards they are to receive. That might be the chase, running with owners, food, toys etc,etc,etc. IMO - you can still have a 'high drive' dog with an off switch - so thereby not *constantly* wanting to do things . My dogs will go totally spastic nutso for at least one thing each but ones low drive and the other 3 moderate IMO. Why is it low drive then? If it goes 'spastic nutso' for one thing? Does it only last a short time? IMO - if that 'low drive' dog goes spastic for one thing, you could use that one thing to build up drive to a reasonable level - it's all about finding ways to make your dogs 'tick'..... to me - low drive dogs are the 'plods' of the dog world - never doing anything above 2nd gear.... so you show them their 'favourite' thing and they look at you as if to say 'woah.... coool.... ' and that's about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 (edited) I think there are some other variables here. Differences between behaviours that are instinctual & those that are articial. Behaviours that are self rewarding & externally rewarding Biddability Heart Bounceback Endurance I don't want a dog that is constantly over the top high drive every minute of the day. I want a dog that is giving 100% when I ask for it but not so much that they are blowing me off to satisfy their drive. I want a dog who when exhausted will still be trying to give 100% mentally even if their body is slowing down. I want a dog who after a bad experience will bounce right back like it never happened. I want a dog who will work just as hard for me if I forget to take a toy or food to training. I expect all of the above from my dogs. I want a lot but it's not impossible with a good consistent relationship, sincerity & decent breeding/genetics. Edited October 10, 2007 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted October 10, 2007 Share Posted October 10, 2007 The biggest thing for me is that the dog will go to the ends of the earth for this one thing. and by that I mean they put their heart and soul into whatever they are doing, full of enthusiasm and pizazz all because of the reward at the end. This is what I deem as 'high drive' (although I may very well be wrong ) I agree with the definition but don't agree that having this for just one thing defines a dog as high drive. For me, it's across the board. To me, a dog may have high drive for some thing(s) but not be a high drive dog. Ah! My definition of drive is different to that. Drive to me is the want to do things overall. A high drive dog to me is one that is constantly wanting to do things (high phyiscal and mental stimulation needs I guess). Do what and to what level? A dog may want to 'do' something but only at moderate speed etc. I tend to believe that a dog won't simply want to 'do' something just because, but they want to 'do' it for the rewards they are to receive. That might be the chase, running with owners, food, toys etc,etc,etc. IMO - you can still have a 'high drive' dog with an off switch - so thereby not *constantly* wanting to do things :D. Do whatever the dog fancies if the drive is not channeled. So a dog that constantly searches the yard for bugs to chase, a dog that is constantly trying to get into things because it's interesting/fun/something to do, a dog that constantly wants to play ball. High drive might start below the "constant" point but to me it's more than just a dog that will turn itself inside out for one thing. A dog that needs a high level of phyiscal and mental stimulation to be happy and not destructive. My dogs will go totally spastic nutso for at least one thing each but ones low drive and the other 3 moderate IMO. Why is it low drive then? If it goes 'spastic nutso' for one thing? Does it only last a short time? IMO - if that 'low drive' dog goes spastic for one thing, you could use that one thing to build up drive to a reasonable level - it's all about finding ways to make your dogs 'tick'..... to me - low drive dogs are the 'plods' of the dog world - never doing anything above 2nd gear.... so you show them their 'favourite' thing and they look at you as if to say 'woah.... coool.... ' and that's about it Because he doesn't do anything by choice and what you can get him to do, isn't much. Duke would (and does!) lay on his bed all day, he doesn't ask for pats or play. He very rarely joins in play that happens around him. To me, he has a low drive to do "things" overall therefore he's a low drive dog. He is a Bullmastiff, they are plods - very intelligent just not highly driven dogs. He has strong territorial, prey and food drives - there are times when I can get him to act like a loon (he's not yet at the "mature" age for his breed so that may stop) but that doesn't make him high drive. Again, it comes down to the fact that you see one high drive as making the dog high drive whereas I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I agree with the definition but don't agree that having this for just one thing defines a dog as high drive. For me, it's across the board. To me, a dog may have high drive for some thing(s) but not be a high drive dog. Me too - I would rather see the drive across the board, but I do recognise that some dogs are simply driven by one thing - and I wouldn't knock them out as 'not' high drive if that makes sense? My ideal would be to have a variety of things that makes the dog 'tick'.... Do whatever the dog fancies if the drive is not channeled. So a dog that constantly searches the yard for bugs to chase, a dog that is constantly trying to get into things because it's interesting/fun/something to do, a dog that constantly wants to play ball. High drive might start below the "constant" point but to me it's more than just a dog that will turn itself inside out for one thing.A dog that needs a high level of phyiscal and mental stimulation to be happy and not destructive. Yes - you want a dog to be busy - but you can have a level of neuroticism (sp?), which wouldn't be classified as high drive... but I do get what you mean. However, a dog can be 'high drive' but still settle... if as you say - it's physical/ mental stimulation is met :D Because he doesn't do anything by choice and what you can get him to do, isn't much. Duke would (and does!) lay on his bed all day, he doesn't ask for pats or play. He very rarely joins in play that happens around him. To me, he has a low drive to do "things" overall therefore he's a low drive dog. He is a Bullmastiff, they are plods - very intelligent just not highly driven dogs. He has strong territorial, prey and food drives - there are times when I can get him to act like a loon (he's not yet at the "mature" age for his breed so that may stop) but that doesn't make him high drive. I get what you mean now - so it only 'sometimes' switches him on - not all the time.... I thought initially you meant all the time ;) Again, it comes down to the fact that you see one high drive as making the dog high drive whereas I don't. I don't get this bit???? So you are saying if there is a dog that will be bursting out of it's skin, speeding around the agility course, non stop manic dog, can't stop moving driven by the tennis ball is not high drive? I had a high drive Kelpie previously - but her drive was solely for the tennis ball (partly because she wasn't really provided with alternatives)... she 'liked' food, but it isn't what made her tick. Her whole focus was on that ball..... if you saw her.... she would be classified as high drive..... I like Vickie's description of it - it is a much more concise way of saying what is going across my brain at the moment!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Me too - I would rather see the drive across the board, but I do recognise that some dogs are simply driven by one thing - and I wouldn't knock them out as 'not' high drive if that makes sense? Yes it makes sense - I just don't agree with you. Yes - you want a dog to be busy - but you can have a level of neuroticism (sp?), which wouldn't be classified as high drive... but I do get what you mean. However, a dog can be 'high drive' but still settle... if as you say - it's physical/ mental stimulation is met The things I listed are the things I see a high drive as doing if it wasn't being channeled. Because if you are channelling a dog you are modifying it's behaviour and therefore removing the differences that would exist between a high, moderate and low drive dog (unless I use specific training examples). I'm not trying to accuse high drive dogs of being unhandlable or saying that no one should have them. I get what you mean now - so it only 'sometimes' switches him on - not all the time.... I thought initially you meant all the time No, the things he has drive for always switch him on. But it's very few things that do this and the type of things that switch him on aren't constantly available so he's low IMO. So you are saying if there is a dog that will be bursting out of it's skin, speeding around the agility course, non stop manic dog, can't stop moving driven by the tennis ball is not high drive? I had a high drive Kelpie previously - but her drive was solely for the tennis ball (partly because she wasn't really provided with alternatives)... she 'liked' food, but it isn't what made her tick. Her whole focus was on that ball..... if you saw her.... she would be classified as high drive..... A permanent "non stop manic dog" is going to be high drive IMO. A dog that is a "non stop manic dog" for food but is otherwise an "mostly stopped calm dog" is not high drive IMO. A dog that only has one drive that needs satisfying is not high drive to me. "you see one high drive as making the dog high drive whereas I don't." I look for an large majority of high drives to class a dog as high drive, not just one. It was the same thing I said at the start of my last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) I agree with the definition but don't agree that Again, it comes down to the fact that you see one high drive as making the dog high drive whereas I don't. I don't get this bit???? I think what she is saying that a dog that has been highly trained to respond to rewards is not necessarily a high drive dog. It is one who has a good trainer able to get the most out of their dog. I agree. All dogs can be trained but some are more naturally high drive than others. ETA: we posted at the same time, I thought wrong I also don't think there is any shame in having a dog who is not high drive. Not everyone wants one or needs one & many would struggle with one. I think it's also breed specific to a degree. I want a high drive dog because I like them & I want to compete at teh top level so my breed of choice is one that is renowned for their high drives. It is part of their breed characteristic, it is who they are. If I didn't want this, I would probably have another breed. It doesn't mean I wouldn't train the dog effectively, it just means I wouldn't need/want drive for it to fit into my lifestyle. Edited October 11, 2007 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) A permanent "non stop manic dog" is going to be high drive IMO. A dog that is a "non stop manic dog" for food but is otherwise an "mostly stopped calm dog" is not high drive IMO. A dog that only has one drive that needs satisfying is not high drive to me. "you see one high drive as making the dog high drive whereas I don't." I look for an large majority of high drives to class a dog as high drive, not just one. It was the same thing I said at the start of my last post. I getcyha now OK - the dog I'm picturing as only having one drive is pretty much the 'non stop manic dog'..... BUT because of training, they CAN and WILL stop when there is nothing to do..... I agree with you that a dog who is only switched on when the ONE thing is presented but otherwise so laid back it is horizontal is not a high drive dog.... but a dog that is 'non stop manic' when the one thing is presented as well as asking for it when it isn't there is high drive. Keep in mind, I do think that all dogs should have (or be taught to have) an off switch though ;) Like I said - the ideal for me are dogs that do have a variety of 'drives'.... but I don't exclude those who drive for one thing........ I have a dog pictured in my mind, but I just cant' explain it properly. ETA: just saw your post Vickie - totally agree with..... a dog that has been highly trained to respond to rewards is not necessarily a high drive dog. It is one who has a good trainer able to get the most out of their dog. I agree. All dogs can be trained but some are more naturally high drive than others. You can train a dog to respond to rewards, but the switch for drive definitely needs to be there ;) - they can be enthusiastic, but not 'drivey' about it ;) To continue on what you say about the 'same' of not having a high drive dog etc - I totally agree - it depends on what you want. I'm glad I don't have a manic dog for my first - because it has enabled me to work hard with him in our chosen sports AND be a better handler so that with my high drive dog I am not fumbling with new sport, psycho dog and a whole lot of other things :D Do you also think (given that you said you think it breed specific) that we should look at 'drives' as a whole spectrum across the breeds..... OR do you think we need to break down into specific breeds.... for example - would a high drive Cavvy have the same drive as a high drive BC?!?! In your opinion? ETA2: ok - here is me trying to describe a high drive dog that is driven by only one thing: *when that object (tennis ball) is out - that is all she focuses on *She will work for ANYTHING to get that ball *When the ball is present, food is not exciting, she will take it, but it isn't really a reward *When the ball is left out and no one is there, she is completely focused on the ball, including making her own games with it. *When the ball is gone and you are out - she will either a) start looking for the ball, b) pester you for the ball. *Pats mean nothing when the ball is out *If the ball is gone, owners gone she can settle *If the ball is gone, owners are settled (ie: watching TV) she can settle Now this girl, was an incredibly high drive dog, but wasn't trained/ provided with anything other than treats/ tennis ball. But see how all other things that she does value can reduce in value when the 'ultimate' is there? Had I actually *trained* her, I think she would have been drivey for other things too though. Edited October 11, 2007 by leopuppy04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) I think what she is saying that a dog that has been highly trained to respond to rewards is not necessarily a high drive dog. It is one who has a good trainer able to get the most out of their dog. I agree. All dogs can be trained but some are more naturally high drive than others.ETA: we posted at the same time, I thought wrong No! Not wrong at all Vickie, I think it just gets deeper into what everyone's looking at. Whether the low drive dog actually has natural high drive for that one thing or whether it has been trained to have high drive for it. Which LP just mentioned too... "they can be enthusiastic, but not 'drivey' about it " - how to tell the difference?! It is part of their breed characteristic, it is who they are. <snip> If I didn't want this, I would probably have another breed. It doesn't mean I wouldn't train the dog effectively, it just means I wouldn't need/want drive for it to fit into my lifestyle. I think I can guess the answer but you know what they say about assuming! Vickie do you believe that high drive is the only way a BC should be (i.e. that you believe moderate is incorrect)? On lifestyles, I specifically chose what I believe to be a low drive breed because he wasn't purchased as a sporting dog. He wasn't ever going to be my focus I guess and a moderate or high drive in that dog would be a hassle/adventure I didn't need. (please don't think he isn't loved or cared for like the BCs, he was just purchased with a different requirement in mind) Like I said - the ideal for me are dogs that do have a variety of 'drives'.... but I don't exclude those who drive for one thing........ I have a dog pictured in my mind, but I just cant' explain it properly. You and me both! From your ETA2 description, the few differences I see in my dogs and why I define them as moderate rather than high is that it's not ALL of the focus ALL of the time and that the ball only has value when there's a person to throw it (or another dog to keep it from). Being ball obsessed would also fit that description, so is being obsessed the same as being high drive? Edited October 11, 2007 by molasseslass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I am finding it very hard to work out what drive my dogs are. They aren't the manic bouncy type dogs but have a very high work ethic. Both are rather serious dogs but are usually busy doing something (herding things usually!). Both are very focused on me. Their desire to please is very strong, if something goes wrong it is always because of a commuication issue not because they say 'no, can't be bothered'. So are they low drive or 'serious' high drive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 "they can be enthusiastic, but not 'drivey' about it " - how to tell the difference?! An enthusiastic worker obviously still has what I would consider moderate drive - in most cases. An enthusiastic worker 'enjoys' work, likes the rewards etc,etc.... but for me the main difference is if they don't do it, they don't care. They don't put their heart and soul into it..... I think it is one that you have to see, to understand/ get the picture??? Like I said - the ideal for me are dogs that do have a variety of 'drives'.... but I don't exclude those who drive for one thing........ I have a dog pictured in my mind, but I just cant' explain it properly. You and me both! From your ETA2 description, the few differences I see in my dogs and why I define them as moderate rather than high is that it's not ALL of the focus ALL of the time and that the ball only has value when there's a person to throw it to (or another dog to keep it from). Being ball obsessed would also fit that description, so is being obsessed the same as being high drive? It's hard work getting across what you mean!!! Add to that - I find 'drive' one of the most difficult things to define!!! Good point about obsession/ drive. Obsession - they only have eyes for the Ball, but they don't work for the ball - they only want it to be thrown etc. Drive - They have an 'obsession' about the object (see some HD dogs and their obsession with agility!), but are able to channel their obsession into working out how to get it. If dealing with one object, I totally agree that there is a fine line between obsession and drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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