Cazz Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 A friend of mine's told me to massage Mish's muzzle while he's eating. My daughter's already been taught to be careful with Mishka while he's eating, but it doesn't hurt to be extra careful. When he growls, I tell him 'NO' and keep rubbing his nose. Is it too soon to be trying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I don't have a pup that is protective of his food - he will in fact bring me his treat ball full of biscuits in the hope that I'll play with him. However, with a pup that is resource guarding I would prefer to teach the pup that all good things come from me - i.e. have an empty bowl and slowly place food a bit at a time in the bowl - rather than putting pressure on a pup by having it thinking I was going to take his food away. Just my opinion of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 (edited) I'm not sure if you're asking a question about massaging his muzzle while he's eating or, as in the heading, taking away his food bowl and giving it back. Personally I would do neither. If you take the food bowl away you may make an otherwise non resource guarding dog into one who will become protective of his food. He needs to trust you not to take his food from him. I would let the dog eat in peace without any interference and make sure your daughter knows to stay away from him when he's eating his meal. efs Edited October 5, 2007 by cavNrott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 I would keep your daughter away from him while eating, but teaching him to accept your presence when he is eating is important IMO. What I do with pups is give them a small amount of their food (nothing they really like like a bone, I use kibble) and depending on the dog, gently ask it to look at you, then give it a yummy treat. Eventually, you should be able to have the dog looka t you while you drop a treat into it's bowl, and then you should have a dog who will allow you to sit with your hand in it's bowl while it is eating. So the dog associates you with yummier food... with good things. But you have to be careful with this, and as I understand it your pup is a rescue so may never be completely comfortable with you around hm whilst eating. This is what I have done with my last 3 pups and I can take anything from them upon request (even bones/chicken frames from my 19 week pup)which is especially useful if they pick something nasty up on the street etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Personally, I would not be touching my dog while he's eating.... esp if he's already growling as the others have said..he needs to see you as the giver of food, and this being a happy occasion also..keep eating puppy and child separate.. better safe than sorry. with our pups..I always start when they are little..with a large something..usually a bone. They sit..I give it to them then say 'gimme' or 'swap' and take it, with heaps of praise, and a small tasty treat. then they sit again..and I give it back. I do this with anything they pick up/bring me...thankfully they mostly respond, and it means there is no chasing after dogs with stolen food/objects...I am way too unfit for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poodle wrangler Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Go to the the Training subforum and pinned to the top is "Triangle of Temptation" (TOT). It takes only 5 minutes extra to do with your dog and helps teach them that all good things come from you. Your daughter can do it once you've got it down pat. I printed it out and read it several times before doing it. Steve is on DOL and lots of questions have already been asked about it (see the thread below TOT). I don't like dogs that guard their food and neither of my dogs would blink twice if I took a bone/ favourite food from them. I've never done any specific "training", but they're not highly food driven either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 with our pups..I always start when they are little..with a large something..usually a bone. They sit..I give it to them then say 'gimme' or 'swap' and take it, with heaps of praise, and a small tasty treat. then they sit again..and I give it back. I do this with anything they pick up/bring me...thankfully they mostly respond, and it means there is no chasing after dogs with stolen food/objects...I am way too unfit for that! Yep, that's what I do- except with food. But once they move 'up' to bones, they get so keen for their treat that my Borders actually bring their bones to me and drop them at my feet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinGus Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 with our pups..I always start when they are little..with a large something..usually a bone. They sit..I give it to them then say 'gimme' or 'swap' and take it, with heaps of praise, and a small tasty treat. then they sit again..and I give it back. I do this with anything they pick up/bring me...thankfully they mostly respond, and it means there is no chasing after dogs with stolen food/objects...I am way too unfit for that! Yep, that's what I do- except with food. But once they move 'up' to bones, they get so keen for their treat that my Borders actually bring their bones to me and drop them at my feet! I haven't been able to do this yet with my puppy. I tried with treats, but she sees whatever is in her mouth as more interesting than the treats I have, even her favourite treats!!! She has growled when I tried to take her bones, so I just leave her alone. Unfortunately for me, this means I have to do the chasing thing when she steals something she's not supposed to have!!! I've read that taking food from a dog is actually bullying and not what a pack leader would do?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 She has growled when I tried to take her bones, so I just leave her alone. Oops..Puppy has won that round When I do it with our pups...I use a bone or fave toy..and KEEP HOLD OF IT! offer it..let them take it, then lots of praise and take it back , IMMEDIATELY followed by a treat..then they get the treasure again..for a few times..then as soon as they stop resisting, and trust me to give it back.. they can have it to keep. That is NOT a recommended training method..but it has worked for our guys Bullying? I never force them... they swap ! AS for something the pack leader doesn't do.... well, maybe not, but with our 'pack' the pups come last if there is something yummy to be had..they quickly learn to accept food being grabbed from their mouths by the others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 What persephone said! I agree, it's not bullying- it's swapping. I'm giving my dog a yummy treat in exchange for whatever they have. ATKING food and not replacing it with something I would consider bullying, and I would not do it unless it was an emergency (say dog picked something up on the street and I had no treats or toys with me), but even so, I would give as much praise as possible to the dog for surredering whatever. I also teach my dogs to 'spit' on command. Which means they will drop whatever they have in their mouth- so they actually have 'ta' which is give something to me, and spit which is drop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavNrott Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 I don't understand why anyone feels the need to put their hands in a dogs foodbowl. It doesn't make sense to me. We need our dogs to trust us not to steal food from them and by messing with their food bowl it surely must make them very wary of our intentions. I strongly believe in allowing dogs to eat in peace. All my dogs are taught the 'out' command which means if I say 'out' they will spit out anything they have in their mouths. They are given a treat when they spit it out. They have no food guarding issues and I've never put my hand in their food bowl. They know if I'm near their food bowl something good will happen because that's the way it's always been for them. I will occasionally drop something in or near their bowl whilst they are eating and they show no objection. I do occasionally hand feed a rescue dog who might be a bit antsy about food. I hold the bowl while I feed them so they know that I give food rather than take it away from them. They learn very quickly that I am no threat to their food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) The only dogs I have ever lived with who had/have issues with food being removed or people close to their food bowl are our Shih Tzu X, who we never did anything with as a pup- left him alone so now you have to count your fingers if you take something from him and our now gone rescue maltese X who had a handful of teeth but would growl with all her might. Every other dog you can do anything with when food is involved. If my dogs are so wary of me and think I am going to take away their food because I fed them with my hand in the bowl, why do they bring bones and other treats to me either to 'swap' for a treat or just to much on beside me, completely relaxed and content with my presence? Oh and the origin of my placing my hand in the food bowl? Came from when I had my Dobermann..... she was a gulper and I was worried about bloat- having my hand in the bowl meant she had to eat much slower. Edited October 5, 2007 by SpikesPuppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 don't understand why anyone feels the need to put their hands in a dogs foodbowl. It doesn't make sense to me. We need our dogs to trust us not to steal food from them and by messing with their food bowl it surely must make them very wary of our intentions. I strongly believe in allowing dogs to eat in peace. *nods in agreement* the "gimme", "spit" , "Ta" instructions are a very useful lesson indeed... but I agree with leaving them eating meals in peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Oh and the origin of my placing my hand in the food bowl? Came from when I had my Dobermann..... she was a gulper and I was worried about bloat- having my hand in the bowl meant she had to eat much slower. Ahhh...that makes sense, I remember an old vet advising people with gulping dogs to put a few large stones in the bowl..the dog then had to pick the food from around the stones... I wonder how many also chipped their teeth? !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) It's not like I sit there every meal with my hand in the bloody bowl! Well, I did with my Dobe but that was for the reasons stated above. I only did it for the first week or so with each of my pups. Hmmm. Stones, I too would worry about chipped teeth. I don't have a dog at the moment who is at risk of bloat (except my newf, but he is not a gulper), but am not sure what I would do if I had another dog at risk. Maybe one of those puppy feeder bowls, with the raised bit in the center? Edited October 5, 2007 by SpikesPuppy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) Cazz: A friend of mine's told me to massage Mish's muzzle while he's eating. Why? If the intention is to train your dog to accept you being able to take valued items away from him (ie prevent resource guarding) I'd consider this at best a clumsy method of doing it and at worst an invitation to being bitten. Furthermore, whilst your dog may end up tolerating such behaviour from you, I'd suggest you don't assume that any such tolerance will automatically transfer to your children. My personal view is that meal times should not be considered to be normal training times. Yes, a dog should learn to sit quietly and wait for his/her dinner but after that they should be left in peace. Constant interference with food can raise a dog's anxiety levels and may create a resource guarding problem when one previously didn't exist. Allow your dog to eat its meals without interference and teach your children that lesson too. A dog growling at you is a warning.. .only the foolhardy persist in behaviour that a dog gives such a clear message about. Be thankful that your dog has a high bite threshold and stop doing this. If you are rubbing his muzzle, your face is within strike range.. you do the math. As as already been advised, teach 'give' and 'take', allow your dog to eat quietly and call him away from his food to reward him if you find it an important thing to be able to do. My view is that unless your friends are experienced dog trainers, take their advice as well intentioned but not necessarily well founded. If you remain concerned about the potential for a meal related biting incident, feed the dog in a crate or with a locked door between him and the kids. Physical barriers will prevent accidents. Edited October 5, 2007 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinGus Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 She has growled when I tried to take her bones, so I just leave her alone. Oops..Puppy has won that round When I do it with our pups...I use a bone or fave toy..and KEEP HOLD OF IT! offer it..let them take it, then lots of praise and take it back , IMMEDIATELY followed by a treat..then they get the treasure again..for a few times..then as soon as they stop resisting, and trust me to give it back.. they can have it to keep. That is NOT a recommended training method..but it has worked for our guys Bullying? I never force them... they swap ! AS for something the pack leader doesn't do.... well, maybe not, but with our 'pack' the pups come last if there is something yummy to be had..they quickly learn to accept food being grabbed from their mouths by the others Yeah, unfortunately I've got a lot more to learn about being a pack leader, bullying or not! I don't have any issues with my pup and food guarding, it's just the bones, and toys!! I can take her bowl away, and like Spikespuppy, I only did it because she would gulp the food down so fast she would get hiccups all the time and I feared it would lead to bloat. I still do it only because she's used to it now and expects more than one bowlful!!! I will try your training method on the toys, and have noted the disclaimer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chloebear Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 I am so glad that you asked this question, I have been debating the same issue as I have a two year old and a four year old children. My four year old understands never to touch bones etc but the two year old can be unpredicatable even with supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 For those with young children, I would definately look into crating the dog/s to eat or placing then in a room blocked off with a baby gate or similar. Or feeding them outside etc. Because yes, kids are unpredictable and it's better to be safe than sorry IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamay Posted October 6, 2007 Share Posted October 6, 2007 My pup used to growl & tense up if I went near his food. I practiced giving him a treat & taking it off him. Eventually he worked out he would get it back. I have grand children and would not want an accident to happen. The older dog I have would rather be patted than eat so she has never been an issue with food. The pup will now let me take the food without any dramas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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