Is There An Aus Company That Makes Bite Developers, Sleeves, And Scent

[ducky]

The original question was where can I get training gear in Australia, but presumptions being presumptions it turns too ...

"I have figured you out in 5 posts and you are going to be a menance to society, you've never owned a dog before, you have no idea what your doing and you collect Hyper Colour t-shits"

And alot of posters talking themselves up, I have no need to justify what my experience is, my life story, and why I should be accepted into the fold.

I will find a trainer when I am stuck on an aspect of training for advice that I can't figure out but any trainer who spends half the lesson telling me that he is the man (Jeff Jones) and how my life is better now that I have met him will be wondering where I walked off too for the other half of the lesson without paying.

I have succesfully trained a dog before in bite and sleeve work without reading any books through guestimating, the only problem I had with him was kids breaking into my yard to take my dog to the park to fetch the tennis ball for them when they were playing cricket.

[Griffo]

Ducky, IMO i dont think you could get any better advice than what people in this thread have given you.

In the nicest possible way, you should really think about what Jeff has said because in my experience, his advice is usually right on the mark. We really do have genuine for concern for your dog, and we have seen the results of "stuff ups" made thru poor training methods time and time again in this area. We honestly just dont want to see this happen to your dog as it could make him a huge liability.

K9Force is the guru of dog training and he is the guru of protection training. What you will get out of him in ONE LESSON will take you a lifetime of reading to learn.

I too began reading as much as i could when i started training my dog, but the advice i got from a professional was just so much more valuable. To be SHOWN what to do, to have unlimited phone and email support for any problems, questions, however small, is priceless. Every dog is an individual and it is important to realise that a book can not look at your dog as an individual and cater for that.

I know that on first glance the amount of money to hire someone like K9Force looks like a pretty huge outlay, I thought so too when i saw it. But seriously, just pay for the first lesson, see how it goes and then decide after that if you think it is worth doing the rest. People travel to see him from all over Australia, you are lucky enough to live in the same city as him. He is an invaluable resource and you should make use him if you are serious about the welfare of your dog and the quality of training that you give him.

I know you said that you just want to get him to biting stage before seeking the help of a professional, but you might be making small mistakes right now that you need to correct. Your dog might not even have the right drives to do this type of training, all of this you need to have a professional assess and help with - someone who has done this training many times before and really knows what they are doing.

I truly think that the instruction of a professional behaviourist like K9Force, is PRICELESS, i can not put a $ figure on the amount of information, knowledge etc i have gotten from him. Not to mention the support after the lesson he gives.

You might think to yourself "what can they tell me that i cant read in a book?" but please just book ONE lesson with K9Force, and your question will be answered.

edited to add:

Bitework and protection training is NOT something you want to be guesstimating with, ever. It is a specialised area of training. It is not like teaching your dog to fetch or drop or whatever.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Rachelle

[MonElite]

I have succesfully trained a dog before in bite and sleeve work without reading any books through guestimating,

When I think about it - if the dog is really willing to bite its actually not that hard to teach them to bite the sleeve.

Its a lot harder to train them to release it when YOU want them to release. How did you go in that area ducky? was the dog releasing nicely? How was the hold and bark? Clean or dirty?

The original question was where can I get training gear in Australia

where did you get the sleeve in the past to train the old dog?

On another subject - how do you know that your dog is suitable for this type of training?? Seeing that 95% of dog are not.... how did you choose the puppy, what was your criteria?

I ask again what breed have you got? not that the breed matters, Im just curious. Is is a cattle dog? or the cattle dog was the previus dog?

Edited November 25, 2007 by myszka

[Kavik]

Like myszka I am curious as to what breed you have - I admit to being a stickybeak!

Not all dogs, even from 'guarding' breeds, have the right temperament to do bitework, take my Diesel as an example

To actually answer your question, my friends who train security are always asking me if I can bring back some gear when I visit the USA though there may now be places in Aus.

[Miranda]

Like myszka I am curious as to what breed you have - I admit to being a stickybeak!

Me too and I'm not even involved in this thread I think you wrote that you used to have an ACD, but you wanted a challenge so you bought a breed that's never used for security or protection and you're trying to train it for bitework?

Do tell us which breed, I'm really curious now

[Erny]

Ducky ..... it wouldn't be a Staffy, would it? I seem to recollect a thread from quite a while back - would need to go searching for it as I can't quite recall whether he too wanted a DIY version of protection training. Maybe I'm wrong .....

[Erny]

The original question was where can I get training gear in Australia, but presumptions being presumptions it turns too ...

If someone unknown writes to say they want to go shooting and where can they buy a gun and bullets, I'd be first asking if they have experience and if they are licenced. Why go tell them where to get the equipment so they can arm themselves without first having the knowledge required to be safe and to respect and regard the safety of others?

If it is that you've had all the experience you need to be able to confidently assess and train any dog into the field of 'protection' work, why keep us all in suspenders and make it so we have to make the presumption that you've not done this before? The mere fact that you have continued to lead us on with your earlier answer to our question (Ie "follow the bouncing ball" by reading books) instead of giving answers to assure us that you know what you're doing and have the experience and intelligence to do the training safely, wisely and responsibly, doesn't really help fill us with the confidence needed to help you arm yourself for a DIY 101 protection training exercise.

People here are expressing caution (hence the questions) before they help you purchase 'bullets for the gun' we don't even know that you can handle. You don't need to answer to us, I'm sure we all understand that. But likewise, people don't have to answer others either, if they're uncomfortable about what they might be helping people do without the advantage of prior knowledge of that person or that person's experience.

Edited November 25, 2007 by Erny

[Miranda]

Ducky ..... it wouldn't be a Staffy, would it? I seem to recollect a thread from quite a while back - would need to go searching for it as I can't quite recall whether he too wanted a DIY version of protection training. Maybe I'm wrong .....

Erny I think there used to be someone with the user name Anthony79 who was trying to train a stafford to be a protection dog.

[Erny]

Thanks Miranda. I think you're right. But a search of that name shows "no results" so unable to track back at this stage.

ETA: Found the thread - but in his case, after 'chatting' to us, Anthony_79 decided to listen to the voices of reason and wisdom, and elected to engage 1:1 tuition.

ETA: Miranda - you have a good memory .

Edited November 25, 2007 by Erny

[Miranda]

Thanks Miranda. I think you're right. But a search of that name shows "no results" so unable to track back at this stage.

ETA: Found the thread - but in his case, after 'chatting' to us, Anthony_79 decided to listen to the voices of reason and wisdom, and elected to engage 1:1 tuition.

ETA: Miranda - you have a good memory .

I had a few 'disagreements' with him so I remember him very well

[ducky]

pointer,

What I did before was start off with a rag with tug of war then move onto similar material towels wrapped up in larger and larger sausages holding it in the air giving a comand when he was going for it and jumping around the place when he grabs it and play tug of war until he looks like he is going to give up then I let it go.

The way to make him release... I use the word 'enough' which I used all the time with him and the new dog which basically means whatever you are doing now is annoying me so stop it from licking my face, eating a shoe, not letting go off the tug toy if he still holds on I use the same way you give a dog a tablet push his lips into his mouth doesn't hurt the dog he just knows if he continues biting he will bite his own lips (which they never do) or I just stick a couple of fingers in his mouth if there is a gap and I have never had a dog in 15 years who has bitten them as from a puppy I will always take food from their mouth's when eating then give it back.

Then moved onto the same material towels wrapped around my arm, that was from guesstimation...... If I ever told my dog to attack then someone holding a towel was going to get it taken off them if no one was holding a towel then he would look blankly as I never hid the towel by wearing a jacket as I never wanted to take that step.

So my theory is that it is an easy train to get to that level if you use the same material 'toys' that get biggger and bigger over a period of time and to turn it into a true attack dog you use a hidden sleeve so he can not see that he is after a toy but an arm. I haven't done aggression training or guarding training as I want them friendly.

But as teeneagers we used to teach our dogs the skitch by the owner saying skitch and the mate running for it calling the dog then having a wrestle with it at the end then more stuff after that where it is turned into a game.

But now that I have read a few books that seems my theory proved to be right with the sleeve but I am not going to train it in guarding or aggression and let that be natural instinct but due to the socialisation I have given to my dogs they would drop a ball at a burglars feet but if I was to decide to move onto the hideen sleeve then it should be a simple instruction to attack.

I don't see the whole training procedure as difficult as what people make it out to be.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Oh boy......

[RottnBullies]

I don't see the whole training procedure as difficult as what people make it out to be.

I wish I could say that! and I'm getting one on one training with my girl

All I can say Is, It's hard work, easy to RUIN a dog permanently If you get It wrong, and I respect and am gratefull In taking valuable guidence from my trainer

[Kavik]

Ok I was going to ask this before but you have answered it for me - how you were going to train protection with just one person (you).

You need at least two people to train this - you can't do it all on your own! You are going to teach your dog to bite you? The way you are training is VERY dangerous . . .

I would NOT want to teach a dog to let go of the sleeve by putting my fingers anywhere near its mouth . . .

[MonElite]

I use the same way you give a dog a tablet push his lips into his mouth doesn't hurt the dog he just knows if he continues biting he will bite his own lips (which they never do) or I just stick a couple of fingers in his mouth if there is a gap

And how exctly will you be doing this f you let the dog on someone and the dog wont release???

I haven't done aggression training or guarding training as I want them friendly.

but I am not going to train it in guarding or aggression and let that be natural instinct but due to the socialisation I have given to my dogs they would drop a ball at a burglars feet but if I was to decide to move onto the hideen sleeve then it should be a simple instruction to attack

so what are you doing? playing with the burglars or training for protection? or what????

I don't see the whole training procedure as difficult as what people make it out to be.

Its official guys we do have a genious in the house

[harper]

what's the use of coming to a forum on training and the advice is pay someone, why doesn't this training forum just have adverts with if you do it yourself your a moron.

Not learning anything here just getting baited.

Don't worry, it seemes to be rife on the health forum too.....people being told to pay for a vet consultation.

BTW I did a lot of reading in relation to the behavioural issues I was having with my dog but I was also given the advice on this forum to seek a professional trainer.

I followed that advice and it is absolutely the best thing I have done for my dog.

Despite all my reading on the subject I now realize I didn't know as much then as I thought I did. ;)

Edited November 25, 2007 by bosko

[Jeff Jones]

What I did before was start off with a rag with tug of war then move onto similar material towels wrapped up in larger and larger sausages holding it in the air giving a comand when he was going for it and jumping around the place when he grabs it and play tug of war until he looks like he is going to give up then I let it go.

You are playing tug of war for too long.

The way to make him release... I use the word 'enough' which I used all the time with him and the new dog which basically means whatever you are doing now is annoying me so stop it from licking my face, eating a shoe, not letting go off the tug toy

You need to be using a different word for the out not just a generic term which means “no” in the long run you will be confusing your dog.

if he still holds on I use the same way you give a dog a tablet push his lips into his mouth doesn't hurt the dog he just knows if he continues biting he will bite his own lips (which they never do) or I just stick a couple of fingers in his mouth if there is a gap and I have never had a dog in 15 years who has bitten them as from a puppy I will always take food from their mouth's when eating then give it back.

I would have a first aid kit on stand by…taking food from a puppy and sticking fingers in your dogs mouth when it is commencing bite work and is in a high state of arousal are 2 completely different things. You need to keep reading books as you obviously haven’t found one that correctly teaches you how to train the out.

Then moved onto the same material towels wrapped around my arm, that was from guesstimation...... If I ever told my dog to attack then someone holding a towel was going to get it taken off them if no one was holding a towel then he would look blankly as I never hid the towel by wearing a jacket as I never wanted to take that step.

The fact that you were using a towel shows how professional you are/were in your training...good luck with doing the bite work yourself.

So my theory is that it is an easy train to get to that level if you use the same material 'toys' that get biggger and bigger over a period of time and to turn it into a true attack dog you use a hidden sleeve so he can not see that he is after a toy but an arm. I haven't done aggression training or guarding training as I want them friendly.

You can train a protection dog without using a hidden arm and training a dog in protection shouldn’t make the dog any less friendly unless you are doing it wrong and applying too much pressure…

But now that I have read a few books that seems my theory proved to be right with the sleeve but I am not going to train it in guarding or aggression and let that be natural instinct but due to the socialisation I have given to my dogs they would drop a ball at a burglars feet but if I was to decide to move onto the hideen sleeve then it should be a simple instruction to attack.

Your theory is wrong, but good luck with it anyway…..

I don't see the whole training procedure as difficult as what people make it out to be.

That is because you are not training your dogs to any kind of standard.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Jeff Jones

[Jeff Jones]

There is no shame in going to a trainer.

ETA:

To actually answer your question, my friends who train security are always asking me if I can bring back some gear when I visit the USA wink.gif though there may now be places in Aus.

There are a few companys in Aus Kavik, one is a prefered Government supplier.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Jeff Jones

[Griffo]

this person is just unbelievable. really really unbelievable. poor poor poor dog.

[Sardog]

Ditto Rachelle

and it's a POINTER

"GUNDOGS ARE FUNDOGS"

Ducky, I hope you are really getting the message here, Jeff's advice is always spot on.

We can't all be wrong.