Balanced Trainers

[Lablover]

I thought this might be an interesting topic, as some mention in past posts, has been made regarding balanced trainers.

Soooooooo, lets talk about avoidance/escape methods, which have received negative reactions from various people. I often wonder why the wave of purely positive training began initially, as most dogs trained to extreme levels, still receive corrections/reinforcement, during their training and careers.

Which of the below is best,in the road to learning/change of behaviour? To simplify, lets say on a previously TAUGHT sit (on lead) command/cue.

(1) (Vocal or other) cue then reinforcement/correction

(2) Reinforcement/correction then cue.

(3) Cue, reinforcement, repeat cue.

(4) Reinforcement and cue simulataneously.

[Cosmolo]

I say number one

[The Spotted Devil]

I'm no trainer, but as a scientist I say Number One - classical conditioning at its finest

[petmezz]

have to say if the dog alredy knows sit, i would use the first method to help proof the behavioure.

[poodlefan]

Definitely 1, provided (as was specified) the dog knows the exercise.

[MonElite]

OH what a brilliant subject LL.

Im leaning towards 3 or 4.

Is there a price for the right answer?

Edited December 4, 2007 by myszka

[Kavik]

Number 1

[MonElite]

Ok questions to those that say nr 1 - if you give a cue than give a correction how does the dog learn to avoid this corretion?

What is the timing of the correction after the cue? How long do you wait considering the dog already knows the excercise, as specified by LL.

[Janba]

Ok questions to those that say nr 1 - if you give a cue than give a correction how does the dog learn to avoid this corretion?

What is the timing of the correction after the cue? How long do you wait considering the dog already knows the excercise, as specified by LL.

If you give a correction before the cue you are correcting the behaviour the dog is currently doing or has just completed. It used to be said that the reward has to be given within 2 seconds but I think it has to be a lot sooner in a lot of cases. It has to be given before the dog does another behaviour.

With a correction I would allow enough time for the dog to perform the behaviour but the reward has to come as soon as the dog responds to the correction.

ETA I don't want a dog that needs to avoid any of my actions. Correction can be verbal or placing the dog in posn but if you use check chains etc you still need to reward the response to your correction so the dog knows that its response to the correction is right

Edited December 5, 2007 by Janba

[MonElite]

With a correction I would allow enough time for the dog to perform the behaviour but the reward has to come as soon as the dog responds to the correction.

How much time?

Tell the dog to sit (and it knows what to do) dog looks around takes a step to walk.

What then?

[Janba]

With a correction I would allow enough time for the dog to perform the behaviour but the reward has to come as soon as the dog responds to the correction.

How much time?

Tell the dog to sit (and it knows what to do) dog looks around takes a step to walk.

What then?

Then it has offered a different behaviour than the one you asked for.

[MonElite]

I realise that but when do you correct?

so if its 1 - how many seconds after the cue do you issue the correction if the dog hasnt done the excercise

[poodlefan]

I realise that but when do you correct?

so if its 1 - how many seconds after the cue do you issue the correction if the dog hasnt done the excercise

Depends on how far along with the training the dog is.. if I've been training for, and established viturally instant sits, then I'd correct more quickly than if the dog has just learned the behaviour.

[JulesP]

Can't really answer as it depends on what is going on at the time. Why I think the dog hasn't done what I ask etc. Don't think you can give a set answer.

[Janba]

I agree with Poodlefan amd Jules P. It depends on the dog, the level of training and what you have actually taught the dog. As an example with an automatic sit, if the dog does it 99 times out of 100 what is different in the 100th time ? Was it your body language, not enough distraction training and a lot of other factors. If the dog only sits 6 times out of 10 does it really understand the exercise?

[Griffo]

i'd say no. 3

say the command, correct, say the command then correct again until the dog complies. If the dog complies too slowly then they still get a correction. Should become a race between dog and correction so the dog sits faster etc trying to beat the correction.

[Griffo]

I realise that but when do you correct?

so if its 1 - how many seconds after the cue do you issue the correction if the dog hasnt done the excercise

correction should come immediately, the idea should be for the dog to beat the correction. Thats how fast the correction should be.

[MonElite]

I realise that but when do you correct?

so if its 1 - how many seconds after the cue do you issue the correction if the dog hasnt done the excercise

correction should come immediately, the idea should be for the dog to beat the correction. Thats how fast the correction should be.

I know that, I was questioning people saying its nr1.

[Griffo]

I realise that but when do you correct?

so if its 1 - how many seconds after the cue do you issue the correction if the dog hasnt done the excercise

correction should come immediately, the idea should be for the dog to beat the correction. Thats how fast the correction should be.

I know that, I was questioning people saying its nr1.

yea and i was answering it for you.

[MonElite]

Great thanks Rachelle, but I was actually questioning Janba

With a correction I would allow enough time for the dog to perform the behaviour but the reward has to come as soon as the dog responds to the correction.

Wanted to know what in her opinon is the allowance for time. as to me it might be 0.5 sec and to her 10 sec. and for some it might be 3 minutes