"swimmer" Puppy?

[poodlemum]

HI - one of the pups in my litter of 11 is a "swimmer". Has anyone else had one of these? If so, how did you treat it, did the pup eventually develop normally?

[krankypuss]

Swimmers

swimmers

There is loads of information in google about what causes "swimmers". Hope everything is ok with your pup, Good Luck!

Edited May 4, 2008 by krankypuss

[Guest Nicedoggy]

My neighbours girl had 3 in her litter and they all grew to be healthy dogs with no problems good luck with your pups.

[Steve]

There are several different theories about swimmers and there's fair evidence that its a genetic condition but I believe if you look at it really closely that its mineral issue. So it may be caused by a genetic predisposiion to not being able to readily absorb some of the nutrients, it may be something with the bitch for whatever reason not getting enough of the right minerals through the placenta.

It was these kind of thngs - thOse that appear to be genetic- which pottinger looked at several decades ago when he showed that many things we see as genetic are in fact nutritional. Based on this I would expect that pups which are under stress are more likely to suffer this condition than those which arent. Here's why.

The mineral that hardens things is calcium - it's what causes hardening of the arteries and among other things hardening of the bones . With swimmers the rib bones are soft so the assumption is that either the diet of the bitch is deficient in calcium or some other vitamin or mineral which helps calcium to absorb normally into the bloodstream or that the pup isnt producing the hormone required to make it all work properly . The inability to make the hormone quickly enough to prevent the calcium from being taken from the bones is in fact linked to too much calcium because it slows down the ability to produce the hormone . This is how eclampsia sets in . The bitch is getting too much clacium in comparison to other minerals so her bloodseam looses its efficiency in being able to make the hormone quickly enough when she needs itt and she's under stress.

So the symptom of a mal absorption of calcium can be a swimmer but no one is really sure about why its not all working the way it should.

BUT- Dog milk has the right ratio and the right type of calcium to make it all right -to teach the pup how to produce this hormone and deposit clcium to the ribs and other bones- even if the bitch has been deficient in one or more they are taken from her bones and bloodstream to do this - so the best hope of treating it and not having any other symptoms pick up later is to try to avoid supplimentary feeding of the pup and feeding the bitch raw chicken wings.

Many times you can pull a swimmer through and you feel all warm and fuzzy and believe the problem is gone [and the swimmer syndrome] is no longer evident but problem is that the thing that causes swimmers also causes other things you cant see .

I would under no condition use a swimmer for breeding and I would be very aware of their diet .

Things like skin problems and kidney, lung , heart and liver problems may show up as the pup grows into adult hood unless the diet is addressed properly. Because the events are so far apart they arent associtated with the swimmer syndrome but its worth considering in my opinion.

[Cavandra]

I believe it is a hereditary problem & Steve makes some good points here :rolleyes:

It is mainly associated with singleton litters & the overfeeding of the pup, but I have seen evidence of it in other litters & linked to certain lines where this is not the case, & yours a litter of 11 is a classic example.

Lie the puppy on its side all the time, when it feeds turn it to the side also, continually hold the legs in the correct position & massage it lying on its side on your knee etc............Egg cartons under the bedding or rolled up towels under the bedding to make it bumpy so the pup has to use itself to get around instead of just dragging itself..........keep putting its back legs under itself to encourage it to use the legs.......Some people put carpet squares in the whelping box, a rough surface easily gripped, and harder to slide along.

There is plenty of info on the net, and I have known very bad swimmers not to have walked until 11 weeks of age but that litter in particular I have seen in the show ring now, so they have all made it through.

[WreckitWhippet]

Yes an entire litter of swimmers. PTS three of them and battled with the remaining two. I nursed them through but in the end the numerous other conditions that have since emerged in these two puppies, have lead me to rethink. Basically any puppy that was a swimmer, I would never guarantee to a future puppy buyer and would PTS if I had any in future litters.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=134036

Above is an updated of the problems that have since emerged.

ETA: The one thing that shocked me about my litter, was the fact that they were up on their feet and they were able to walk ( did not display the usual swimming motion), you could however depress your thumb straight into the chest, where bone should be. It was horrific and I never want to go through that again. I would suggest if you decide to nurse that puppy through, that you remove it from the gene pool and place it in a home that is understanding of it's bad start to life and also informed that the future may not be so bright.

Edited May 4, 2008 by Warley

[krankypuss]

Actually Fonz has only had mange and no other problems at all, so it seems poor little Pancake has got the rough end of the stick At this point anyway :rolleyes:

[poodlemum]

There are several different theories about swimmers and there's fair evidence that its a genetic condition but I believe if you look at it really closely that its mineral issue. So it may be caused by a genetic predisposiion to not being able to readily absorb some of the nutrients, it may be something with the bitch for whatever reason not getting enough of the right minerals through the placenta.

It was these kind of thngs - thOse that appear to be genetic- which pottinger looked at several decades ago when he showed that many things we see as genetic are in fact nutritional. Based on this I would expect that pups which are under stress are more likely to suffer this condition than those which arent. Here's why.

The mineral that hardens things is calcium - it's what causes hardening of the arteries and among other things hardening of the bones . With swimmers the rib bones are soft so the assumption is that either the diet of the bitch is deficient in calcium or some other vitamin or mineral which helps calcium to absorb normally into the bloodstream or that the pup isnt producing the hormone required to make it all work properly . The inability to make the hormone quickly enough to prevent the calcium from being taken from the bones is in fact linked to too much calcium because it slows down the ability to produce the hormone . This is how eclampsia sets in . The bitch is getting too much clacium in comparison to other minerals so her bloodseam looses its efficiency in being able to make the hormone quickly enough when she needs itt and she's under stress.

So the symptom of a mal absorption of calcium can be a swimmer but no one is really sure about why its not all working the way it should.

BUT- Dog milk has the right ratio and the right type of calcium to make it all right -to teach the pup how to produce this hormone and deposit clcium to the ribs and other bones- even if the bitch has been deficient in one or more they are taken from her bones and bloodstream to do this - so the best hope of treating it and not having any other symptoms pick up later is to try to avoid supplimentary feeding of the pup and feeding the bitch raw chicken wings.

Many times you can pull a swimmer through and you feel all warm and fuzzy and believe the problem is gone [and the swimmer syndrome] is no longer evident but problem is that the thing that causes swimmers also causes other things you cant see .

I would under no condition use a swimmer for breeding and I would be very aware of their diet .

Things like skin problems and kidney, lung , heart and liver problems may show up as the pup grows into adult hood unless the diet is addressed properly. Because the events are so far apart they arent associtated with the swimmer syndrome but its worth considering in my opinion.

But what makes me think it is not an hereditary problem is the fact that 10 other puppies are all fine! I'm going to try some of the physical therapy exercise suggested in some the the internet articles. The puppy's chest is quite normally developed - not flat at all.

[poodlemum]

Puppy is starting to walk!!! I've been doing some "physio" on him - helping to move his legs and he's taken a few tentative steps this morning!

[felix]

Puppy is starting to walk!!! I've been doing some "physio" on him - helping to move his legs and he's taken a few tentative steps this morning!

Good news.

Are they minis or standards?

Edited May 7, 2008 by felix

[poodlemum]

Puppy is starting to walk!!! I've been doing some "physio" on him - helping to move his legs and he's taken a few tentative steps this morning!

Good news.

Are they minis or standards?

Standards

[felix]

Standards

How is little one doing?

[poodlemum]

Standards

How is little one doing?

Getting better & better - this afternoon he climbed out of the whelping box & was walking around - on slippery tiles! He's a great little boy & I've become quite fond of him, what with having to give him the extra attention.

[felix]

[poodlemum]

Little "Thorpie" is walking quite normally now - he a little character

[Gretel]

Poodlemum I think we need a photo of Thorpie!

[poodlemum]

Thorpie with "Auntie" Sascha

Thorpie & Mum playing (not mum's best angle )

[Gretel]

Awww

[Kissindra]

awww what a cutie! Love the name