bertie b Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Hi We have a 2 year old 32kg kelpie x german shepard who is so dearly loved Bertie has always been very affectionate, well trained and no problems. He sits to cross roads, enter the house, before he eats and he comes in at night and sits on a matt with no problems. We take him every where with us and he is like my child. My husband's parents have been away overseas and we had their 2 dogs (both about 20yrs old crippled with arthritis who wouldn't hurt a fly). All was going well and one night when I was cooking tea Bertie attacked the older male dog. It was pretty horrific and the poor dog was yelping and trying to bite back. My dog had him by the neck and drew blood. I had to punch and kick him to get him off the poor dog. I immediately took the other dogs home as I was worried that if it happened when we were at work that the old dog couldn't fight him off. We hoped it was a once off as maybe my dog was territoral. A month later (last night) we took our dog up to husband's mum's. They were good so we went inside - about half an hour later we heard the old dog screaming. DH ran out and he had him by the throat again. My husband couldn't get him off. He had to punch him and kick him many times to get him to let go of the dog's throat. Our dog immediately starting crying and sulking as we have never hit him or kicked him and he was scared of my husband. I know you shouldn't hit or kick dogs but we couldn't get him to release the other dog's throat. We have 2 nephews who are 3 and 6 who adore him and constantly want to come to our house and spend the entire time in the yard playing with him. We have our first baby due in 3.5 months and we are concerned that he may turn on them. We are also worried that he may attack other dogs He is such a big dog and needs to be walked daily and we take him for big runs in the paddocks to exercise him off the lead a few times a week. He is always walked with a halti daily. I am scared that as I am the one who walks him on weekdays that he may attack another dog and I won't be able to get him off and that the other dog might get hurt or the other person if they try and stop it. We have noticed he has become more aggressive in the last 6 months when walked on the lead if there are other dogs - he drags you with all his might towards them and barks aggressively at them. I called our vet today and she said we could either put him down or go through a retraining problem which she doesn't guarantee will work The retraining is very expensive and a lot of work, she said that my dog may also need to go on prozac. She said that the fact that he has grabbed a known dog by the throat is concerning. This is their instinct to kill - by the throat. Bertie has been such a beautiful dog that it's breaking my heart to think I have to put him down. I have been crying since last night and I cried all day at work about this decision. I will put him down if its for the safety of other dogs and children though. Has anyone had this happen in melbourne and know of anyone who specialises in aggressive dog behaviours and who can assess him and see whether we can get him socialised with other dogs ? I want to do whats best for my dog so I would like to try this before and get the correct advice before the other option .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 You need qualified experienced professional help. I'd be giving Dr Debbie Calnon a call for an evaluation and program. Many many factors may be involved in dog aggression.. it's not an area you want online diagnosis and help for. You also need to understand that dog aggression and aggression towards people are entirely different things. You will not 'socialise' your dog our of this aggression.. it will require a committed program of behavioural modificaiton under expert supervision. Is your dog desexed? If you buy and fit a proper muzzle, you can walk him safely without risk of him attacking other dogs. But see an expert ASAP. And don't leave him unattended with other dogs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Hi There are many facets of your situation. A dog that is aggressive towards other dogs is not necessarily aggressive with people. Zoe doesn't like other dogs but is great with people and adores children. What is your dog like with other dogs generally, has he been socialised as a pup? Does he see many other dogs? The attacks happened on one of the dog's property, not neutral territory, may have something to do with it. The dog Bertie attacked was old. Sometimes dogs are funny with dogs that are weak or unwell. So it is not clear cut. I would see a behaviourist who can see clearly what is going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pug Hugger Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 We had something similar happen when my old border collie was still around. He was 17/18 and one night out of the blue the 8 year old turned around and went for him, drew blood, hell of a racket and so on. Before that these two dogs had lived together for 8 years. Now I am no expert but I thought perhaps it could have been real, real gut instinct (i.e. younger dogs in the wild kill the older ones). From that point we kept them separated until the eldest was PTS in February. Hopefully someone more qualified than me can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 (edited) It was the same dog that your dog turned on .... right? (Note here .... are you kidding us that your Mum's dogs are 20 years old????) There is what I will refer to here as an "ancient instinct" that sometimes is exhibited by some dogs. It is triggered, it seems, by a frailty/illness harboured by the dog who is attacked. It is 'natures way' of, I guess, weeding out the old, weak and/or frail so they do not hinder the pack and thus affect its survival. If your dog is attacking the same dog each time and if your dog has up until now otherwise been good around other dogs, it might pay to have the Vet do a thorough work-up on the dog which has been attacked, to detect if anything is wrong and that might otherwise be treatable. On the otherhand, if the dog is 20 years old (???) the procedure of checking and any treatment for ailment might be too much and 'counter qualitive' for the old dog. In any event, it would be a matter of keeping the dogs separate. It is not necessarily a case of your dog needing to be pts. And an attack on another dog is not indicative of an attack on a child or person. But it would pay to have a trainer/behaviourist assess your dog in more detail. ETA: I had a similar incident occur in relation to one of my call-outs for "aggression". It involved a pack of 3 dogs. All had lived happily together for some years. Then the 'middle' dog (speaking age, not necessarily hierarchy status) began to attack the elderly/weak dog. I watched the approach of the younger 'problematic' dog towards the older dog. It was a different approach to what you would expect of a typical hierarchy challenge or assertion. In this case, the 'attack' was always preceded by an obvious and determined 'sniff'. I don't mean the 'meet and greet' sniff. It was different. Anyway, they took their older dog to the Vet. They paid for some basic tests as they really couldn't afford more. And as discussed above, further expense would only probably prove to be an academic exercise, given the older dog's age and frailty. The basic tests didn't show up anything, but I found out further down the track that this older dog had shown some periodic symptoms of declining health. The Vet also agreed that he felt there was definately something wrong with the older dog. Although I set up a system of 'preventative' measures for these people to follow, unfortunately the story ends sadly and the older dog received one final and fatal injury from the younger dog. The younger dog has never shown any aggression towards the other dog he shares his life with, nor to other unfamiliar dogs he meets along the way when out. The above is the only conclusion I could reach in this instance. Edited June 11, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertie b Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 thank you all for taking the time to respond Bertie has been desexed. We got him from the lost dogs home at 8 weeks and he was desexed when we got him. I will def buy him a muzzle to walk him to protect other dogs. He really hasn't had a lot to do with other dogs since we had him. When he used to see dogs he used to go up and play with them and be friendly but the last 6 months we have noticed that he has become more aggressive towards them. He pulls aggressively towards them and barks very aggressively at them. I certainly wouldn't trust him to leave him with another dog. He was very familiar with the dog he attacked. It is the same dog he attacked both times. He has spent a lot of time with my inlaws two dogs since being puppy. The old dog is 16 yrs old to be exact. He has slowed down a lot in the last year and is not very active and has a lump under his abdo. We have spoken to his parents numerous times about taking him to the vet to have him tested for cancer and other such things but thats another story. They don't feel its necessary as he doesn't appear to be in pain and he is so old that they would prob put him to sleep rather than do the tests. Thats really interesting what you have said about them attacking "unwell" dogs as this dog is certainly unwell. He has had no formal puppy/dog training. We have always until now been able to manage him easily. My husband and I have decided that he has to have some sort of behaviouralist assessment/training for us to be able to keep him as we are afraid of what he might do. I will google Dr Debbie Calnon and try and get soem contact details. Does anyone else know of anyone who works in this field in melbourne who could help us? I am only new in here and am not sure if you are able to give direct recommendations. If you aren't if you could PM me the details of others I would really appreciate it. Thanks for your time, its not an area that I have any idea about as you can prob tell.....but we love our dog and want to best for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 My husband and I have decided that he has to have some sort of behaviouralist assessment/training for us to be able to keep him as we are afraid of what he might do. I will google Dr Debbie Calnon and try and get soem contact details. Does anyone else know of anyone who works in this field in melbourne who could help us? I am only new in here and am not sure if you are able to give direct recommendations. If you aren't if you could PM me the details of others I would really appreciate it. Bertie b .... I'm in Melbourne but not sure of your actual location. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss further, or click on the link to my web-site in my signature for my contact number/s. If location is problematic (although I service many areas) I may be able to give you a name or two of someone else to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucknow Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Try this link for a list of registered veterinary behaviorists. http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/behaviorists.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Dr Debbie Calnon - Victoria, Western Australia & Tasmania BSc BVMS MACVSc (Animal Behaviour), Delta Canine Good Citizens Accredited Instructor Behaviour Counselling Service PO Box 130 OAKLEIGH SOUTH VIC 3167 Phone: (03) 9807 2751 Mobile: 0412 178 032 Email: [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 You can also try here http://www.animalbehaviour.com/ Dr. Robert Holmes E-Mail email address Please note that it is not practical to consult effectively or to give informed advice by e-mail. Effective diagnosis and explanation of the options for modification require an intensive question and answer session. This is best done verbally. However, you are welcome to e-mail, fax or post background information before a consult Office Telephone (03) 9882 6789 (international +61 3 9882 6789, where "+" is your International Access Code) Mobile (Cellphone) 0419 384 922 (international +61 4 1938 4922 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 (edited) Bertie B, what area are you from as we may be able to assist you and/or direct you into the right direction. If your dog has not had proper socialisation as a young pup, then this could be one of the reasons for the attacks. However, instinct almost always kicks in with dogs and the "weeding" out of the weak and sick may be in play here. Although I hesitate to confirm this as your mother's dog is not part of your dog's immediate pack. I don't know if prozac will be your answer here either. BTW, what is your dog like around other dogs? Edited June 11, 2008 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Bertie has always been very affectionate, well trained and no problems. He sits to cross roads, enter the house, before he eats and he comes in at night and sits on a matt with no problems. We take him every where with us and he is like my child. When he used to see dogs he used to go up and play with them and be friendly but the last 6 months we have noticed that he has become more aggressive towards them. He pulls aggressively towards them and barks very aggressively at them. He has had no formal puppy/dog training. We have always until now been able to manage him easily. Ding ding here ... especially the part where he is like a child. Bertie is a dog first and foremost. And your vet saying that retraining is expensive and requires prozac (uhhh no) is doing the typical butt-covering exercise a lot of vets do - they don't want to condone a so called aggressive dog to live and then the owner comes back after something really terrible happens. I think Bertie has just been allowed to get away with things that, as a puppy, were not really that big a concerne for you but now as a more mature adolescent they have manifested as - well the behaviour you have seen. Bertie seems to have you controlled more then the other way around. Also attacking the older dog that is sick - are they of a similar size? Could the older dog have been trying to intimidate yours and being the right age/size Bertie tried to regain his status in the way he knew best. Or maybe Bertie really did let him know it was time to move over as he is weakened. At least try not to be scared or overly worried over Bertie. Do not avoid walks or be on tenderhooks with him but by all means be responsible. Get a behaviourist ASAP and a muzzle in the mean time to get you piece of mind. Dog aggression and human aggression links are not definate, this does not mean he will suddenly 'turn'. Best of luck with him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertie b Posted June 11, 2008 Author Share Posted June 11, 2008 thanks everyone. we are in the gladstone park area. near tullamarine. i am in the process of working through all the people you have suggested! nekhbet - i have to agree with you - he prob has got away with things with us! He has never been like that though which is the part that I have found most distressing......the older dog was a little smaller but still a large dog kelpie - he has become more aggressive in the last 6 mths whilst walking when he sees other dogs. he pulls really hard to get to them and barks at them instead of just showing an playful interest like he did before. he has never really been "socialised" with other dogs except fpor my inlaws who he saw regularly and there was no problem until he attacked the older dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Bertie B, we are in Keilor Park (definitely not far from Tullamarine). We handle these sorts of cases all the time, in fact we have 6 on the go at the moment. Please click on the link below and contact me so that we can discuss various options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 (edited) kelpie - he has become more aggressive in the last 6 mths whilst walking when he sees other dogs. he pulls really hard to get to them and barks at them instead of just showing an playful interest like he did before. he has never really been "socialised" with other dogs except fpor my inlaws who he saw regularly and there was no problem until he attacked the older dog. This puts him in the 18 mo age bracket when the signs became obvious to you (and were quite likely to have been there earlier, only perhaps more obscure that you might not have recognised them. That is not untypical of a dog that doesn't perceive your leadership as something upon which he can rely and who also may have uncertainties of other dogs. Edited June 11, 2008 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 It is distressing the first time the right opportunity arises - it can really shake you. My Malinois snapped at a child once after having been tormented and hurt by neighbourhood children, I tell you what I was in tears for days with the decision if it was fixable or not. Persistance and training - I modified her training completely and children became another of those non negotiables and she will readily accept pats and cuddles without stressing or feeling like she has to lash out. Remember its never the end of the road. There are various different methods out there but do what works for your situation first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 Would need to look at and address the following: Leadership (first and foremost) Re-socialisting and/or desensitising Training program to suit to help promote focus, compliance and alternative behaviours in your dog Training program to teach YOU what to do Anger and coping management strategies and skills (for you) No drugs, just guidance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 I would strongly suggest you organise a consult with Kelpie i as soon as you are able. Personally i think you are likely to be better off seeing a behavioural trainer in this instance as opposed to a veterinary behaviourist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 11, 2008 Share Posted June 11, 2008 There is what I will refer to here as an "ancient instinct" that sometimes is exhibited by some dogs. It is triggered, it seems, by a frailty/illness harboured by the dog who is attacked. It is 'natures way' of, I guess, weeding out the old, weak and/or frail so they do not hinder the pack and thus affect its survival. I've heard Pharoah Hounds are like that to the extreme when living in groups. Someone told me they knew someone that bred them. The top bitch one day tripped on her way down the stairs with the other bitches behind her. The moment she tripped, the rest of the dogs fell on her and it was very messy. But then, it was a staircase and tight spaces seem to create a lot of tension in some dogs as well, which could have been a contributing factor. I think I even mentioned once before a wolf in a captive pack that was at the top, but broke her leg and had to have it amputated. She always kept her lopsided side away from the other wolves, especially number 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pupylv Posted June 12, 2008 Share Posted June 12, 2008 (edited) Edited June 18, 2008 by pupylv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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