Check Chains?

[huski]

Nah, i asked them to remove the check chain and do the same exercise as before, all pulled, pretty obvious dog learnt not to pull when it had the chain on

Well surely that is the fault of the owner, not the training tool. As many of us have posted in this thread, there are some of us who can take the tool off and not have the dog pull. It's about getting to that stage and sadly not all dog owners are perfect and can manage that using purely positive training, or without any assistance from a tool.

[~*Shell*~]

Never had to use a prong and never will.

I hope you do never have to use one tollersowned - but not all dogs respond to all training tools and I have one of those dogs. Of all the training tools i have used (flat collar, martingale, check chain, gentle leader, normal harness, no-pull harness), the prong was the only one that worked, and i only had to use it for a small amount of time. Now i use it when we go for a walk in a place where neither Zero nor i have been before - because he hasn't been tested in all situations (i'm trying to socialise him to most situations) and i want to know that i have complete control over him should something happen.

Have you owned many different breeds of dog from different situations? Zero is an exception in that he was abused by his previous owner (and he is a husky, a notoriously stubborn and independent breed) but because of the good experience i have had with the prong collar - should i ever have another dog that needs it, i wouldn't hesitate to use the prong collar again.

[huski]

Never had to use a prong and never will.

I hope you do never have to use one tollersowned - but not all dogs respond to all training tools and I have one of those dogs. Of all the training tools i have used (flat collar, martingale, check chain, gentle leader, normal harness, no-pull harness), the prong was the only one that worked, and i only had to use it for a small amount of time. Now i use it when we go for a walk in a place where neither Zero nor i have been before - because he hasn't been tested in all situations (i'm trying to socialise him to most situations) and i want to know that i have complete control over him should something happen.

Have you owned many different breeds of dog from different situations? Zero is an exception in that he was abused by his previous owner (and he is a husky, a notoriously stubborn and independent breed) but because of the good experience i have had with the prong collar - should i ever have another dog that needs it, i wouldn't hesitate to use the prong collar again.

Pfft Shell - don't you know, all dogs if you have them from puppyhood can be trained without ANY tools

Sibes and beagles especially, they are such easy breeds to own and train to heel after all. very biddable. very eager to please

Edited October 20, 2008 by huski

[~*Shell*~]

Pfft Shell - don't you know, all dogs if you have them from puppyhood can be trained without ANY tools

Sibes and beagles especially, they are such easy breeds to own and train to heel after all. very biddable. very eager to please

Totally! They don't shed or dig either - and so submissive! Not a dominant bone in their body!

Oh and when they're off chasing something, all you have to do is whisper a recall command and they're back with you in an instant.

[Sayreovi]

Have you owned many different breeds of dog from different situations?

Mmm well is fostering several dogs of varying breeds and behaviours, including a large dog that pulled like a frieght train, as well as my own dog who drove alot of people to give up on him good enough for me to comment on the use of check chains?

Pfft Shell - don't you know, all dogs if you have them from puppyhood can be trained without ANY tools

Sibes and beagles especially, they are such easy breeds to own and train to heel after all. very biddable. very eager to please

Please tell me where i said ALL dogs, i think i have said several times that i know some dogs need it.....just not puppies is that so hard to read and understand?

Mmm yes because the category of difficult breeds only has Siberians and Beagles in it, no other dog of any breed cant be more difficult than those too

I know you are 'joking' but there is no need to sarcasm, we all cant be the 'special' owners that own Sibes or Beagles.

[Sayreovi]

Nah, i asked them to remove the check chain and do the same exercise as before, all pulled, pretty obvious dog learnt not to pull when it had the chain on

Well surely that is the fault of the owner, not the training tool. As many of us have posted in this thread, there are some of us who can take the tool off and not have the dog pull. It's about getting to that stage and sadly not all dog owners are perfect and can manage that using purely positive training, or without any assistance from a tool.

Mmm except i have tried it myself.....and yes i know how to use a check chain......with no success.

Stop putting words into my mouth, since when did i say that people who dont use tools are perfect owners?

Sure there have been some people claiming their dog does such and such, but sorry words over the internet arent going to change my mind

Edited October 20, 2008 by tollersowned

[huski]

Please tell me where i said ALL dogs, i think i have said several times that i know some dogs need it.....just not puppies is that so hard to read and understand?

Mmm yes because the category of difficult breeds only has Siberians and Beagles in it, no other dog of any breed cant be more difficult than those too

I know you are 'joking' but there is no need to sarcasm, we all cant be the 'special' owners that own Sibes or Beagles.

I said all dogs if you have them from puppy hood, just as you said right here:

I understand some dogs require a prong/check especially the larger strong breeds that the owner didnt raise as a pup, but i dont see why people cant train correct behaviours when their dog is a puppy to avoid having to use a correction collar later on instead of doing a 'so-so' job when young and then when the dog 'forgets' its training say its too hard and whack a check/prong on them

And I never said Sibes and beagles are the only difficult breeds - I refer to them because they are the breeds I own, and are challenging and often dominant dogs that are notorious for not being typically biddable breeds or breeds that are easy to train.

I know you are just speaking from your own experience ;) but we can't all be the "special" owners that can perfectly handle a dog with no assistance from training tools of any kind.

Mmm except i have tried it myself.....and yes i know how to use a check chain......with no success.

Stop putting words into my mouth, since when did i say that people who dont use tools are perfect owners?

Sure there have been some people claiming their dog does such and such, but sorry words over the internet arent going to change my mind

That's great that you have tried it yourself - but that doesn't mean its true for everyone, does it? Naturally training tools are just that and their effectiveness depends on the person using them.

You have implied several times throughout this thread (and not just with the above bolded quote) that you think you are pretty darn clever for being able to handle and train dogs with absolutely no training tools whatsoever. Well done to you! I guess those of us who have needed the assistance of training tools clearly fail as dog owners. I had my two from puppy hood and despite my efforts to teach them to heel with just flat collars (and I only ever used flat collars when they were puppies) I did need extra help from a martingale to get us over the line I fail to see where the big deal is. The both walk nicely on the leash now.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Please tell me where i said ALL dogs, i think i have said several times that i know some dogs need it.....just not puppies is that so hard to read and understand?

Mmm yes because the category of difficult breeds only has Siberians and Beagles in it, no other dog of any breed cant be more difficult than those too

I know you are 'joking' but there is no need to sarcasm, we all cant be the 'special' owners that own Sibes or Beagles.

I agree, we own "difficult breeds" and do not use prongs or train with check chains.

The original question was for opinions on what to use on a puppy for general training. These discussions always seem to become a veiled snarkfest about positive vs correction based training. It would be more productive if they didn't because I'm not sure there is anyone here who agrees that you should use a chain on your average puppy.

[Just Midol]

Nah, i asked them to remove the check chain and do the same exercise as before, all pulled, pretty obvious dog learnt not to pull when it had the chain on

Well surely that is the fault of the owner, not the training tool. As many of us have posted in this thread, there are some of us who can take the tool off and not have the dog pull. It's about getting to that stage and sadly not all dog owners are perfect and can manage that using purely positive training, or without any assistance from a tool.

Mmm except i have tried it myself.....and yes i know how to use a check chain......with no success.

So you know how to use one... but failed using it.

Right...

I know French but I fail every french test and no one can understand me.

[~*Shell*~]

Have you owned many different breeds of dog from different situations?

Mmm well is fostering several dogs of varying breeds and behaviours, including a large dog that pulled like a frieght train, as well as my own dog who drove alot of people to give up on him good enough for me to comment on the use of check chains?

You may have had many different dogs. I had a dobe that never needed anything but a flat collar - but Danika was very very different from Zero. You seem to be saying that you can train any dog without the use of training tools (i would like to point out that a flat collar is also a training tool) - I'm trying to tell you that I tried and failed with everything but a prong and my training methods haven't changed that much. Zero was a fear aggressive, rank aggressive, dog aggressive, unsocialised, teenaged monster who spent the formative early years of his life being physically abused by his former owners, before being dumped on the streets to wander for 8 weeks - other tools didn't work for him.

You said that "there have been some people claiming their dog does such and such, but sorry words over the internet arent going to change my mind" - the same is true for us. You claim that you have had a difficult dog to deal with - I don't believe that you have run into a dog that has needed a prong collar. I had never run into one until i met Zero and it's only since having a dog that needed such a tool that i have run into other dogs that need it because i have been to training days and aggression workshops to help me deal with Zero's problems, where i have seen them. Words over the internet won't change my mind to that fact either. I would happily invite you to come and watch me work with Zero so i can show you what he's like on different collars.

The point of a prong collar isn't for me to correct him by popping the leash - it's for him to teach himself by working out the rules. He gets a warning before the correction happens by me saying "arrr". If he pulls after that, yes he does get a correction but what has he learned? Stay close to me and listen when i warn you and you don't give yourself a correction. He does that a few times and he gets the message - pull on a walk and you give yourself a correction. I'm not pulling on his collar, he's doing it to himself because he's pulling on the collar. All he sees is me walking calmly and offering calm advice to him. Put him on a flat collar, same deal. He gets a warning and if he pulls he starts to feel the pressure of the leash then remembers that last time he felt that pressure, he pulled a little more and gave himself a correction for it - lesson learned: Listen to the warning before you start to pull so yon't even start to feel the pressure of the leash because if you take a step a little bit faster than me, you will give yourself a correction.

[huski]

I agree, we own "difficult breeds" and do not use prongs or train with check chains.

The original question was for opinions on what to use on a puppy for general training. These discussions always seem to become a veiled snarkfest about positive vs correction based training. It would be more productive if they didn't because I'm not sure there is anyone here who agrees that you should use a chain on your average puppy.

Yet TO seems to think you can train any dog if you have had it from puppy hood without any tools - implying that anyone who can't teach a dog they've had from a young age to walk on a loose leash without tools is incompetent (that's any training tool not just prongs or check chains). We're not all miracle workers or perfect trainers who can accomplish that task without any corrections, or assistance from a tool, when you have a difficult dog whose instinct tells it to pull.

[Nekhbet]

the point is to start without a tool and think a little. Its easy to put a chain on a pup - yes it will work but you're missing valuable groundwork.

even security/shutzhund puppies get heaps of praise, encouragement and rewards when theyre young.

A pup under 6 months doesnt need a chain. Thats 4 months of training before you decide if the pup may need a correction chain down the track (after 6 months you see new attitudes mature so this is why I dont discount that needing a chain later will never happen especially in some types of dogs) or if it is simply some gaps on your training.

[huski]

the point is to start without a tool and think a little. Its easy to put a chain on a pup - yes it will work but you're missing valuable groundwork.

even security/shutzhund puppies get heaps of praise, encouragement and rewards when theyre young.

A pup under 6 months doesnt need a chain. Thats 4 months of training before you decide if the pup may need a correction chain down the track (after 6 months you see new attitudes mature so this is why I dont discount that needing a chain later will never happen especially in some types of dogs) or if it is simply some gaps on your training.

Oh, Nekhbet, I agree 100% that pups shouldn't be trained on any tool when they are that little. I never used any training tools on my dogs when they were little and I never will. Daisy was trained completely with treats and lots of praise as a puppy, and that is how I taught her to walk on the leash to begin with.

Daisy wasn't terrible on a flat collar, but as soon as she picked up a scent (and this as she had begun to mature at six months plus) I could put chicken under her nose and she wouldn't look twice at it. Her instinct to scent was much stronger than what I could offer her. I had tried incredibly hard to get her focus as a puppy and in certain places she was great, in new environments not so much - her focus was not 100%. Could it have been holes in my training? Maybe, Micha was the only other dog I'd ever trained and was much more responsive and easier to handle than Daisy. I'm not a very experienced handler, each dog was still a learning curve to me. Maybe that's why it frustrates me when some people go "well you just should have trained her properly as a puppy!" I tried, and got progress, but I'm not perfect and needed some help down the track. But hey - even if I was incompetent and failed at training her at least I put the effort in and got there in the end.

[Nekhbet]

ahh this is the thing about drive - it turns off the drive for food. Its a mechanism in the dog to make sure it does the job. What good would a dog be if you want it to work and it goes 'oooh snacky' at every turn

This is why something that applies an 'OI pay attention' reaction to the dog is required. Even on a flat collar you can do little sharp tugs *tug tug tug tug* quickly walking away from the scent and raise your voice "DAISY COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME" long and loud so its not fleeting enough to be ignored. We tend to speak quickly once we think a dog knows a command but when they are distracted they can easily miss what you're saying - we do it all the time!

I use this method on pups because you teach them to follow you and to pay attention. You are also teaching them not only the rules you expect but what you expect them to do. Walking away tugging on the collar encourages the brain to pay attention whereas any pulling at all just flicks on the opposition response in a dog and encourages it to work harder. Opposition responses are also useful in some instances but again, you should know what you're doing.

[huski]

ahh this is the thing about drive - it turns off the drive for food. Its a mechanism in the dog to make sure it does the job. What good would a dog be if you want it to work and it goes 'oooh snacky' at every turn

This is why something that applies an 'OI pay attention' reaction to the dog is required. Even on a flat collar you can do little sharp tugs *tug tug tug tug* quickly walking away from the scent and raise your voice "DAISY COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOME" long and loud so its not fleeting enough to be ignored. We tend to speak quickly once we think a dog knows a command but when they are distracted they can easily miss what you're saying - we do it all the time!

I use this method on pups because you teach them to follow you and to pay attention. You are also teaching them not only the rules you expect but what you expect them to do. Walking away tugging on the collar encourages the brain to pay attention whereas any pulling at all just flicks on the opposition response in a dog and encourages it to work harder. Opposition responses are also useful in some instances but again, you should know what you're doing.

Exactly! Her drive to scent will always override food I found as she was maturing and got to 6-12 months her drive increased a lot and the responsiveness she had as a puppy diminished. Lately I've been training her on a longer lead, and using scenting as a reward so that when I recall her I give her praise and then let her scent again.

When she was a puppy we also did the whole stop and change direction instantly, call her to follow me etc and this worked but then she'd pick up a scent and nothing I could say or do would override it.

We started using the martingale at obedience school and then on our walks and using it to give her a quick correction when she pulled definitely helped. We do off lead work when we go to obedience club now so obviously she can focus without any tools, its just working on getting that same focus every where we go.

[Just Midol]

the point is to start without a tool and think a little. Its easy to put a chain on a pup - yes it will work but you're missing valuable groundwork.

even security/shutzhund puppies get heaps of praise, encouragement and rewards when theyre young.

A pup under 6 months doesnt need a chain. Thats 4 months of training before you decide if the pup may need a correction chain down the track (after 6 months you see new attitudes mature so this is why I dont discount that needing a chain later will never happen especially in some types of dogs) or if it is simply some gaps on your training.

I was really shocked when I saw how much handler praise motivates Montu. With Axle, he couldn't have cared less if I was happy with him Montu seems to think it's the best thing in the world.

Though, as soon as possible I am putting an e-collar on him (minute fear period is over)

[Nekhbet]

why are you using an e collar on a pup Midol? You should be concentrating on building drive, handler-dog relationship and socialisation to bring out the best in your dog and you dont need an e-collar for that. Rediculous, dont push your pup too early let them mature at their own pace and work them when they show they are ready not when you THINK they are ready. A lot of people in security are in a desperate hurry to have the working dog down pat ASAP. If it takes 2-3 years so be it. If it takes 12-18 months somethings not right.

ETA If you are so suprised how handler praise affects a dogs enthusiasm then put down the E-collar and go learn some more before you push the dogs drive into the ground.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Nekhbet

[Dory the Doted One]

You know. Maybe it's just me. But I quite enjoy training my dogs as a process, what's the hurry?

I've done all the manic get them ready for trial bullcrap, building them to the point where their at performance peak...blah de blah de blah.....

What is wrong with just taking the time...bonding with your dog...working out what works...what doesn't...what's your goal anyways...All that sort of stuff.

What's wrong with actually just wanting your dog to work with you cos you are fun to be with? Why does it have to come down to the kind of collar you are using? Or the training method. Did you know its quite possible to combine training methods? TRUE.

To me, there is no black and white in dog training. I think it pays to be aware of what methods and techniques are out there...to be open minded about it. Because you just never know what some dog or situation will throw at you. And if you have closed your mind off...then you lose a whole world of information that could help.

We all have our preferred methods. Mine is flat collar. (heck half the time the dog isn't even trained on a lead....Too funny when you are trialling and the dogs OFF lead is better than his ON lead performance...how often does THAT happen??) Loads of food AND toys...AND silly voices.....

But then, my world and self identity does not hinge on how well behaved my dog is. And I'm much more concerned that both me and the dog are having......................................................

........................

FUN.

[Just Midol]

why are you using an e collar on a pup Midol? You should be concentrating on building drive, handler-dog relationship and socialisation to bring out the best in your dog and you dont need an e-collar for that. Rediculous, dont push your pup too early let them mature at their own pace and work them when they show they are ready not when you THINK they are ready. A lot of people in security are in a desperate hurry to have the working dog down pat ASAP. If it takes 2-3 years so be it. If it takes 12-18 months somethings not right.

ETA If you are so suprised how handler praise affects a dogs enthusiasm then put down the E-collar and go learn some more before you push the dogs drive into the ground.

Because all those helping me are telling me too.

You just seem to be anti anything I do. I find it odd that you seem to think I am doing everything wrong, yet every other experienced security & schuhtzhund trainer I've spoken to has no problem with the speed I am doing it at.

And also, the majority of trainers I speak to consider 12-14 months the usual training length. I am starting to see why I was repeatedly warned not to post about Montus training on here. It doesn't matter though, I'll follow the advice of my trainer and those who have been helping me all along.

[Nekhbet]

yeah I know a couple of people training security dogs in Qld and frankly they shouldnt own a dog let alone be a security trainer.

GSDs take a while to mature. Why push it? And like I said why use an E-collar are they going to stimulate the dog into defense earlier by supressing the prey or just use it as a corrective aid?

Who says I have to agree with a lot of Sch/Sec people. Geez spent nearly 5 years with them and mopped up a few of their byproducts Midol. Did you see my dog Krueger? His breeder and trainer were meant to be big in the sec world. Nothing but cruelty and blaming a poor dog on their own inadequacies. I also got another dog for a while who was trained the poor thing had no off switch and was too jittery to even sleep, the only thing she was good for was the vet clinic.

Do what your trainer says but dont just follow because. Your dog dictates what you do and E-collars, prongs etc just because someone tells you too will not make a better dog. Your groundwork and encouragement will do more for Montu then an E-collar. I dont like time limits because all dogs are different, all lines are different and you will learn that giving the dog a little extra time can make a world of difference.

ETA an 18 month old GSD is still a big doofus. Go meet a few you will see that although they can cause a ruckus and show a few teeth theyre still just teenagers. I woudl rather put an extra 6 months in before running out and working a 14-18month old dog.

double ETA - I really hope Montu works out for you he looks like a beautiful dog. Dont take everything to heart, I'm a crochety old cow sometimes and I speak my mind because my primary concern is the long term welfare of the dog. But sometimes the sec world needs to lower its expectations of a dog. His hips and bones are still developing at 12 months of age another reason to do things slowly. As I said a dog can carry on like a porkchop and inspire awe at its tenacity but is it because the dog is a full hard defense dog or has it been pushed into showing this reaction when its crapping itself and has a chance of redirection because there's an element of instability?

Edited October 21, 2008 by Nekhbet