Check Chains?

[Ashka]

Used a check chain for training all my dogs of various breeds and sizes for 30 odd years.

Always check with a loose lead never a taut one, move toward the dog to make sure. Dogs should NEVER be allowed pull on a check chain, loose lead only.

Practice with the chain on your left wrist to make sure it's on the correct way round so it slackens off immediately.

All dogs could be walked at heel on ordinary collars as adults, the check chains are used for formal town walking where leg cocking, sniffing etc is NOT allowed except under command.

Chows, Springers or Cavaliers no difference, they are all dogs.

Prong collars are illegal in NZ.

[Just Midol]

Prongs or checks arent 'training' in my eyes they are just a temporary solution that dont 'fix' anything.

Then go and learn to use one.

Right because i dont know how to use a check chain? Perhaps you should go learn how to train a dog to not pull without any equipement?

Sorry to burst your bubble but they are merely a temporary control, one that is no different to a halti or gentle leader, the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the prong or whatever is taken off.......what has the dog learned about not pulling? Uhh nothing!

No.

But congratulations, you've just demonstrated to everyone who knows how to use training collars that you have no idea about their proper use.

If you "condition" the collar correctly then the dog never even realises the correction is coming from the collar.

Mine never comes off my dogs, well, never used to... But that was as an insurance policy. You know sort of like cars, I can drive and I know I won't have an accident but one day, if something unforeseeable occurs, then I want to be covered. Responsible? I think so.

Ashka, are they really? They're not a prohibited import.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Lord Midol

[huski]

Prongs or checks arent 'training' in my eyes they are just a temporary solution that dont 'fix' anything.

Then go and learn to use one.

Right because i dont know how to use a check chain? Perhaps you should go learn how to train a dog to not pull without any equipement?

Sorry to burst your bubble but they are merely a temporary control, one that is no different to a halti or gentle leader, the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the prong or whatever is taken off.......what has the dog learned about not pulling? Uhh nothing!

I could take my martingale off my Sibe and he would still walk on a loose leash, all I did was use it along with a training program to help me get to that stage. Similarily with my beagle, the martingale didn't stop her from pulling on its own but along with a training program, it assisted in teaching her not to pull. A training tool is just that, a tool, and most won't work unless you put the effort into a training program to go with it.

Edited October 19, 2008 by huski

[dee lee]

I would like to suggest that not all owners are good at training their dog not to pull. Such as me .

I spent a year attempting to train my dog to loose lead walk. Unsuccessfully.

I was even unsuccessful with a check chain initially. My dog for whatever reason is HIGHLY distracted and is not much interested in pleasing me outside my house.

With consultation with a trainer I have accepted my/her limitations, work with them and am happy with the use of tools if it gets me the results I NEED, that is, a dog who will loose lead walk. She is never allowed offleash ("issues" with other dogs) so this is immensely important to us.

Even now she is not perfect but we hopefully will get there and using a tool such as a check chain was invaluable in the process.

[harper]

I'd never use a check, I hate them. They put all the pressure on one spot.

BTW, I think it's a load of crap that if you teach it loose lead walking now it'll be fine as an adult. Axle was perfect till about 6-7 months and then he started pulling and pulling.

That seems like a bit of a leap, Midol, to use an individual dog to form an opinion that something is "a load of crap" across the board. How are you currently teaching your pup loose lead walking?

I would personally be using a flat collar on a baby pup.

[Erny]

I'd rather use a Pressure Point Collar (PPC) aka 'pinch' or 'prong' collar than a check chain or head collar. Of course - it is all dependent on the dog in question and I don't carry a blanket opinion on what one particular style of equipment is best for all. But unfortunately in Victoria, the 'powers that be' and the organisations who support and provoke those 'powers', have (supposedly but IMO not convincingly in the name of 'dog-welfare') deemed it better to limit the choices and not necessarily to the better ones.

[Sayreovi]

No.

But congratulations, you've just demonstrated to everyone who knows how to use training collars that you have no idea about their proper use.

If you "condition" the collar correctly then the dog never even realises the correction is coming from the collar.

Mine never comes off my dogs, well, never used to... But that was as an insurance policy. You know sort of like cars, I can drive and I know I won't have an accident but one day, if something unforeseeable occurs, then I want to be covered. Responsible? I think so.

Ashka, are they really? They're not a prohibited import.

Right.

So why dont you take the check chain off your dog, allow the dog time to realise that it doesnt have one on, then walk him........lets see what happens aye?

Sorry but i dont buy into the fact that people believe their dog is trained not to pull when it is always walked on a check chain, and no taking it off for one walk and saying look he doesnt pull doesnt prove anything, the dog has merely been condition and will revert back to old behaviour as soon as it realises it can.

I dont see how leaving a check chain on your dog all the time as responsible? In fact i would call it extremely stupid.

Regardless of my opinion on adult dogs with check chains, i would never use one on a young puppy.

[Cosmolo]

tollersowned- i agree and disagree with you Wouldn't use a chain on a puppy. However, all of my dogs can be walked on either a correction chain or flat collar without any problems? 2 of my dogs haven't had a chain on for months and they still walk just as well as they did with it on.

[Blue Fox 001]

Just as an aside then - how young is too young to use a check chain? And is this age any different if you use a martingale with a chain?

We are currently just using a flat collar on our almost 4 month old boy and this is working fine cause he is fairly compliant, but I may also like to use a martingale at some stage. We had the GSD in a check chain at about 4 months (many years ago now when obedience club recommended them for training) and he doesn't seem any the worse for having used it his entire training life. He is still walked daily in it and if we go out in public, although at the beach he has his ezydog flat collar for swimming.

Anyway don't mean to hijack - but maybe others are interested as well

[Sayreovi]

I dont deny there are dogs out there who will walk properly without a check chain if they have been trained with one, but ive never seen one walk as good as it did with one on then with one off, what i dont agree with is people who say their dogs dont pull only to learn they are walked on a check or prong.......that isnt training to me.

I understand some dogs require a prong/check especially the larger strong breeds that the owner didnt raise as a pup, but i dont see why people cant train correct behaviours when their dog is a puppy to avoid having to use a correction collar later on instead of doing a 'so-so' job when young and then when the dog 'forgets' its training say its too hard and whack a check/prong on them

Edited October 20, 2008 by tollersowned

[Dory the Doted One]

While stepping carefully to avoid the piles of poop and opinion on prong collars...(oh, and I used one, successfully, and I used a choke chain...successfully...titles on both of those dogs....and I've used a flat collar only...successfully...yeah...title on that dog too.)

I don't recommend prong collars or choke chains as a GENERAL rule. Especially not with a puppy, takes all the fun you can have out of training.

Food, balls...and ME...is all I have needed (oh, and good timing sometimes for older dogs)

But to each his own...I can only speak of my own experiences and what has worked for me. Up to the individual owner to make up their own minds, with all the information they can get. For good, bad or indifferent results....it all comes down to the level of skill and commitment really.

[gsdog2]

While stepping carefully to avoid the piles of poop and opinion on prong collars...(oh, and I used one, successfully, and I used a choke chain...successfully...titles on both of those dogs....and I've used a flat collar only...successfully...yeah...title on that dog too.)

I don't recommend prong collars or choke chains as a GENERAL rule. Especially not with a puppy, takes all the fun you can have out of training. :p

Food, balls...and ME...is all I have needed (oh, and good timing sometimes for older dogs)

But to each his own...I can only speak of my own experiences and what has worked for me. Up to the individual owner to make up their own minds, with all the information they can get. For good, bad or indifferent results....it all comes down to the level of skill and commitment really.

:p I totally agree! Prong, check or flat collar effectiveness depend on the dog and the handler - although I wouldn't use anything more than a flat collar for a small puppy.

[Nekhbet]

puppies do not require a correction chain, you should be teaching the puppy that you are the best thing on the planet. Puppies are foundations, you should be teaching them to be focussed and letting them play.

Sorry to burst your bubble but they are merely a temporary control, one that is no different to a halti or gentle leader, the dog immediately starts pulling as soon as the prong or whatever is taken off.......what has the dog learned about not pulling? Uhh nothing! wink.gif

incredibly wrong. These are tools, not fix its as your sentence makes it out to be. Check chains and prongs do not automatically stop the dog pulling - many dogs still pull quite hard on these tools. If that is the case then it is a dog-owner relationship problem not a chain problem.

You use these collars as a tool WHILE training, not just to solve your problem. Some dogs do require corrective aids and check chains are very useful in shutting down drive quick smart. I use them and they have an application especially since pinch collars are illegal here.

You would be suprised that if a dog is immediately pulling after having the chain taken off it probably pulled all the way through the chain as well. You dont get perfect heeling to tractor pull by the simple removal of a collar.

Midol I know what you mean - dogs will start pushing the boundries at certain ages and can make you think 'why did I bother'. Having said that I found minimal changes to pulling during hormonal periods. Have a look at how you walk etc you will probably find minor holes in your behavior and training that the dog has discovered and exploited when its at its turdiest They can be a pain cant they, the rotty is currently thinking the best game in the world is woofing at the back door then running off pretending he didnt do it you have to wonder

[Erny]

I dont deny there are dogs out there who will walk properly without a check chain if they have been trained with one, but ive never seen one walk as good as it did with one on then with one off, what i dont agree with is people who say their dogs dont pull only to learn they are walked on a check or prong.......that isnt training to me. ]

I think the point is being missed here a bit, or perhaps something is misunderstood? ..... Unless there is "training" combined with the use of the training aid, the dog doesn't train itself. In fact unless a handler knows how to use one (be it chain or PPC), many dogs will still pull in a chain and (to a lesser extent) a PPC.

My avatar girl didn't pull (well .... she did when I first adopted her but with training, did not) and I could walk her out (just as well) on a flat collar in time. Many times I walked her in her chain just on the off chance an unexpected situation might occur where I wished it were there for training sake rather than not. So she was still on many occasion walked out on a check chain .... but no, she was not a puller. Tollers - how would you be able to tell by merely looking or for that matter hearing that people have a chain or PPC fitted and THAT is the only reason they don't pull? Or is that an assumption?

Edited October 20, 2008 by Erny

[Grechy]

Geez hasn't this opened a can of worms

It's great to see a couple of 'experienced' dog handlers here giving opinions on the matter & from what I can gather my pup (who's 10 weeks) is probably still too young to have a check chain on him. In saying this though, he has already learnt to sit aswell as walking beside me on a lead & comes when called on a lead. I'm happy with progress so far & look forward to my little mate growing up to be my best mate, he's a top little dog & I'd hate to have him grow up into a nuisance because I didn't nip bad habits in the butt earlier on which is why I had been told to speak to a dog handler early in the piece

Thanks for your replies & sure enough there'll be more questions to come over time

[Erny]

Geez hasn't this opened a can of worms

..... inevitably it does. Usually because someone says something that someone doesn't agree with and of course the balance of opinions need to weigh up so that reading might at least part way permit the reader enough to form an (at least to some degree) educated opinion of their own.

It's great to see a couple of 'experienced' dog handlers here giving opinions on the matter & from what I can gather my pup (who's 10 weeks) is probably still too young to have a check chain on him.

I generally do not look to use a correctional collar on a pup so young and I am of the view that if what you have is working, then you don't fix what ain't broke . But if/when it isn't working, then's the time to turn your mind to the choices of training tools. By then you will most likely have gathered some idea and information on the choices and will also know more on what your (older) puppy needs.

In saying this though, he has already learnt to sit aswell as walking beside me on a lead & comes when called on a lead. I'm happy with progress so far & look forward to my little mate growing up to be my best mate, he's a top little dog & I'd hate to have him grow up into a nuisance because I didn't nip bad habits in the butt earlier on which is why I had been told to speak to a dog handler early in the piece

Way to start, Grechy

[Sayreovi]

Tollers - how would you be able to tell by merely looking or for that matter hearing that people have a chain or PPC fitted and THAT is the only reason they don't pull? Or is that an assumption?

Nah, i asked them to remove the check chain and do the same exercise as before, all pulled, pretty obvious dog learnt not to pull when it had the chain on

Happy to be proved wrong, as i am only basing my opinion on what i have seen and personal experience.

Grechy: Nothing like a healthy discussion

[Just Midol]

Happy to be proved wrong, as i am only basing my opinion on what i have seen and personal experience.

So you've used a check or a prong under professional guidance?

Yes? No?

I've seen many people use positive reinforcement without any success at all, the dog will only come when they have food or the reward... Doesn't mean all positive reinforcement is crap or will fail.

ETA: Do you live in SEQ? You're welcome to come and witness my dogs both with and without a prong.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Lord Midol

[~*Shell*~]

Happy to be proved wrong, as i am only basing my opinion on what i have seen and personal experience.

I have a rescue dog that came to me dog aggressive and a chronic leash puller - took him out to see steve at k9 force, was taught how to use a prong collar properly (we failed with a check chain because Zero was abused with one so was totally immune to it) and given a program to work with Zero on. I went to see Steve on july 12th and then back out to see him at the dog aggression workshop he held in sydney in september (about 8 weeks between visits). He's no longer dog aggressive, doesn't pull on leash anymore and he listens to me when i give him a command. He can have a dog lunge at him snarling and he doesn't even react anymore whereas before he would have exploded the second he saw the other dog, let alone when it was close to him.

At training (i can now take him to obedience and have him around other dogs with them jumping on his face and licking him without a problem), i'm not allowed to have him on his prong collar - so i use a flat collar or a martingale depending on how much time i have when i'm leaving home. He acts exactly the same on all 3 collars to the point where i now mostly just walk him on his flat collar.

As Midol said, purely positive methods don't work with all dogs - Zero just didn't listen to me on a walk. The prong collar turned his focus back to me - it wasn't about correcting, it was about focus. When i had his focus, he was able to be taught whereas before i couldn't hold his focus, no matter what. I could've had the best toy, food, game or anything he would usually go crazy for and if he wanted to pull, he would've done it. Now if he even thinks about it (to chase a possum), all i have to say is "slow" and he knows to listen.

Feel free to ask me any questions you might have! If you're in sydney, you can even come and see us in action if you like.

ETA: Just read back over the last few posts - i now use positive reinforcement to train, but to use positive reinforcement you have to have the dog's focus to begin with so in a way, i can use it only because of the prong collar, if that makes sense.

Edited October 20, 2008 by ~*Shell*~

[Sayreovi]

Happy to be proved wrong, as i am only basing my opinion on what i have seen and personal experience.

So you've used a check or a prong under professional guidance?

Yes? No?

I've seen many people use positive reinforcement without any success at all, the dog will only come when they have food or the reward... Doesn't mean all positive reinforcement is crap or will fail.

ETA: Do you live in SEQ? You're welcome to come and witness my dogs both with and without a prong.

Depends on what you define as professional? I have been shown how to use a check chain by several people i consider more competant then most 'professionals' going around and yes i did use one. Never had to use a prong and never will.

You know i dont live in Queensland, otherwise i doubt you would have offered