Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 [q I try not to think too much about the theory as you'll turn yourself inside out Tell me about it SD.... :rolleyes: This is probably a "no brainer" thread but I just wanted to find out other people's views and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Someone asked a similar question at the Greg Derrett seminar and he was saying that it is a bit of a 'buzz topic' in the US ATM as there are quite a few well known clicker trainers out there (although he didn't give specifics) who now believe that jackpots are not as effective as first thought and don't use them any more. Apparently there have been a couple of studies done that support this but again, he didn't give details. He didn't have a personal opinion on whether or not they are effective, but has never 'jackpotted' his dogs - even before this-as he believes that if the reinforcement schedule when learning is high enough then they are unnecessary. This concept would work well in agility training as there are many training opportunities for rapid fire treat delivery ('machine gunning') such as nose touches on target plate, etc. which would almost simulate the 'jackpot single treat delivery' method anyway, even though technically they are 'one behaviour one treat'. One thing that was amazing was the amount of food and play that his dogs actually got when working. I thought I rewarded mine very highly but after seeing what he does, I now think I have been a scrooge and am trying to improve in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 My jackpot for Jedi is one treat after the other, otherwise I feel that he would just see it as 'one treat' (if I gave him a pile in my hand). My jackpot for Ahsoka is usually something along the lines of running around doing the happy dance with her LOL! And then a toy or treats being thrown around for her to chase (she loves to chase and she's very food driven). So I guess either way, I am a one-after-the-other jackpotter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 One thing that was amazing was the amount of food and play that his dogs actually got when working. I thought I rewarded mine very highly but after seeing what he does, I now think I have been a scrooge and am trying to improve in this area. A colleage of mine went to this same seminar and mentioned the same thing. Apparently we Aussies are somewhat "stingy" with our treat giving, compared to others. Could it be that we just don't understand their concept? Could it be that we are still recovering from a bad case of Koehlerism??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraNik Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 One thing that was amazing was the amount of food and play that his dogs actually got when working. I thought I rewarded mine very highly but after seeing what he does, I now think I have been a scrooge and am trying to improve in this area. A colleage of mine went to this same seminar and mentioned the same thing. Apparently we Aussies are somewhat "stingy" with our treat giving, compared to others. Could it be that we just don't understand their concept? Could it be that we are still recovering from a bad case of Koehlerism??? I bring about 3 large zip-lock bags full of treats for one night at training!! I'm certainly not stingy!!! Though Ahsoka might like to say that I am - so she gets more food!!! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) I use the "one after the other after the other after the other" in very quick succession. Not "5-second intervals" :rolleyes: Erny it was .5 second not 5 second Oops. Sorry - must have mis-read. Thought 5 seconds was a bit slow and didn't figure that could possibly be how you'd understand it - ;) one'd spend so long jackpotting there'd be no time for training! Edited March 18, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 A colleage of mine went to this same seminar and mentioned the same thing. Apparently we Aussies are somewhat "stingy" with our treat giving, compared to others. Could it be that we just don't understand their concept? Could it be that we are still recovering from a bad case of Koehlerism??? Could be all of the above I think :rolleyes: Interesting thought. I'm only speaking from an agility background but it seems to me that many of us are very fixed in the idea of 'treat at the end of running the course' which for me was often a jackpot. Now at training I'm trying to actually stop and reward anything that I really like on course, (rather than just the predictable end of contacts and table) so dogs are probably getting the same amount of food, but maybe 5 or 6 pieces during the run rather than 5 or 6 pieces at the end of a run. The funniest comment I have had about that so far was someone who asked why I stopped and did that so many times as if I hadn't then I would have 'had a clear run'. (Not really my goal at training!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) A colleage of mine went to this same seminar and mentioned the same thing. Apparently we Aussies are somewhat "stingy" with our treat giving, compared to others. Could it be that we just don't understand their concept? Could it be that we are still recovering from a bad case of Koehlerism??? Could be all of the above I think :rolleyes: Interesting thought. I'm only speaking from an agility background but it seems to me that many of us are very fixed in the idea of 'treat at the end of running the course' which for me was often a jackpot. Now at training I'm trying to actually stop and reward anything that I really like on course, (rather than just the predictable end of contacts and table) so dogs are probably getting the same amount of food, but maybe 5 or 6 pieces during the run rather than 5 or 6 pieces at the end of a run. The funniest comment I have had about that so far was someone who asked why I stopped and did that so many times as if I hadn't then I would have 'had a clear run'. (Not really my goal at training!) Oh my goodness, somebody does not understand what "training" means.. ;) Edited March 18, 2009 by Pippi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 I guess I do both. If I'm jackpotting with the same treats I'm training with, I will give multiple treats one after the other. If I'm jackpotting with something different and 'special' I'll give it all at once because it's probably a chicken wing or a small tin of cat food. Either way, the time to consume the jackpot is longer than the normal treat, and I think if I gave a handful of training treats they would be gone almost as quick as one treat (yes, I have vacuum dogs). It's probably more for my benefit but I want the jackpot to last noticably longer than a normal treat. I have heard that some trainers are now saying jackpotting doesn't 'work', but it does make me feel good :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) I guess I do both. If I'm jackpotting with the same treats I'm training with, I will give multiple treats one after the other. If I'm jackpotting with something different and 'special' I'll give it all at once because it's probably a chicken wing or a small tin of cat food. See, to me they are two different things (as far as terminology is concerned). It might sound as though I'm being anal, but I've noticed so much lately that some words are attracting different meanings and it makes it difficult (ie lengthy) to explain with the written word what one means. "Jackpot" to me is the giving of treats (small) one after another after another in quick succession. The instance where you might have a chicken wing or some such is not IMO "jackpotting" (in the training terminology sense) but is simply rewarding with a higher value food treat. Edited March 18, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FHRP Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) I guess I do both. If I'm jackpotting with the same treats I'm training with, I will give multiple treats one after the other. If I'm jackpotting with something different and 'special' I'll give it all at once because it's probably a chicken wing or a small tin of cat food. See, to me they are two different things (as far as terminology is concerned). It might sound as though I'm being anal, but I've noticed so much lately that some words are attracting different meanings and it makes it difficult (ie lengthy) to explain with the written word what one means. "Jackpot" to me is the giving of treats (small) one after another after another in quick succession. The instance where you might have a chicken wing or some such is not IMO "jackpotting" (in the training terminology sense) but is simply rewarding with a higher value food treat. Erny, I do see them as different things, but not sure what terminology I'd use. When I use I different reward (I'm not sure it's higher value, they go ape for the lunch meat I use, but they are guts :rolleyes: ) I break away training completely, leave the ring and reward. When I give multiple small treats it may be in the ring, and training may continue. Edited March 18, 2009 by FHRP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 My dog taught me a very valueable lesson about how predictable I was by running off and jackpotting at the end of an exercise. In two UD trials we got to the gloves exercise, I sent him for the glove he brought it back the first time he threw it at me and ran off towards the car - the second time he sat in front and threw the glove at me, it fell on the floor, so he picked it up and threw it at me again, this happened 3 times before I finally caught it. He wasn't being naughty - and he was so enthusiastic. All of this was caused by me jackpotting in training at the end of the gloves exercise on a regular basis, so he was anticipating his reward. Now I am very careful where I jackpot and make an effort not to leave it until the end of an exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) :rolleyes: Ptolomy about the gloves - think Ness has got the same and I don't even always jackpot gloves at training. She has decided waiting is an optional extra and she might as well hurry up with bringing her glove so she can go and get the reward. At the moment I am not so sure Jackpots will work for my baby but I guess time will tell. Edited March 18, 2009 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I use treats in quick successesion to get duration on a stationary behaviour, in the learning stage. To me it is a way of saying to the dog yep that's what I want in the 1/2 second to 2 second time frame the dog has to form associations when learning. I then release. I use quantity in one hit, after using successive treats, to denote the complete exercise when teaching something in increments, again in the learning stage. With recall I give a succession of treats as I don't want the dog recieving a quantity of treats and then leaving or focusing on something else as I may need to do something else with the dog ie put it's lead on. One by one most certainly keeps focus for longer and allows the dog to 'savour' each treat, but I also think some dogs will see the handful in one go as the jackpot. Yes I think the individual dog is important as well as the situation at the time. I have heard that some trainers are now saying jackpotting doesn't 'work', but it does make me feel good I'm not sure if it does or doesn't but I do feel like the dog has got something back and does make me feel better I belive that quality and quantity are both important to dogs I prefer to use quality to denote that doing the exercise/s is the most fun, not ending it. I use a couple of quanities of quality during training when the dog knows the exercises (after the treats are consumed they are asked to do something else), the release command denotes the end of training. I want the end of training to be percieved as boring to the dog. I suppose I want the dog to think that the training session is lifes "jackpot" just when it is coming and how the dog needs to listen and conform to find out. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gila Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I give my dog several treats in quick succession while giving verbal praise. I think this method allows the dog to actually register the fact that it's getting more than one treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Apparently we Aussies are somewhat "stingy" with our treat giving I remember a seminar, where Custom dogs were show cased. The trainers rewarded, in my opinion, too frequently, seemingly for the dog simply breathing. In hindsight the dogs were YOUNGSTERS and in the TEACHING phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Apparently we Aussies are somewhat "stingy" with our treat giving I remember a seminar, where Custom dogs were show cased. The trainers rewarded, in my opinion, too frequently, seemingly for the dog simply breathing. In hindsight the dogs were YOUNGSTERS and in the TEACHING phase. Hey, have you finished packing yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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