Dova Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 LOL its all good Piper I am sure it will be ok and if not there is always the next one . I am just having a dig at Dova more than anything . :D Leave me alone I'm very sensitive & what's wrong with reading bedtime stories to the sheep, doesn't everyone . Piper I'm doing PT, if the sheep jam up in a corner how can I help my dog without touching her, I think that's a big no no, I'll be asking questions on the day but I'm a big planner aheader, not a real word I know but you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 You keep reading those bedtime stories to the sheep Dova I am sure they will get you through (although don't think your dogs will need it somehow from what I hear). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 LOL its all good Piper I am sure it will be ok and if not there is always the next one . I am just having a dig at Dova more than anything . Leave me alone I'm very sensitive & what's wrong with reading bedtime stories to the sheep, doesn't everyone . Piper I'm doing PT, if the sheep jam up in a corner how can I help my dog without touching her, I think that's a big no no, I'll be asking questions on the day but I'm a big planner aheader, not a real word I know but you get the idea. Depends on your dog. And it is my concern with Jazz - Ill trade you 2 your concerns, Jazz is in started and never done an obstacle . Seriously - if they get in the corner they will flock to the person if put under pressure, so put the dog in as close behind them as you can get it then walk yourself in front of the sheep. And be prepared to wait a few seconds - if the dog will hold their ground and apply some pressure then the sheep wll usually move off of the dog if you provide a draw. The main time in PT that they will go into that corner is when they are released from the holding pen. PT you go in on lead and can set up where you want, so the way I handle it is walk my dog into that corner on lead, ask them to sit/drop, remove the lead there and then walk out. Sheep usually have moved halfway along the fence line by then. I ask the dog to hold that spot and walk myself away from the corner so the sheep can see me and then ask the dog to walk in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 What Piper said Remember to keep moving so the sheep have something to draw to. If things start to go wrong stop the dog before the sheep are out of the dogs control, breathe deeply and keep in front of the sheep so they have something to draw to. If you dog has a strong instinct to balance and you stand still or get out of position they will tend to circle or push the sheep in the wrong direction to maintain the balance. If they go into the corner at the top of the arena after going through the panels (near markers 2 and 3 if you look at your rules) make sure you are down the fence line in the direction you want sheep to go and move slowly away from the sheep placing you dog on the fenceline behind the sheep if you can. This will help push the sheep off the fence and round the corner. Once they have turned try to put the dog on the inside of the sheep but not level with them so the fence covers one flank and the dog the other. You have 10 minutes to do the course and it is a simple pass/fail so there is no need to panic and try to rush and can reattempt the panels etc if you get it wrong the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If they go into the corner at the top of the arena after going through the panels (near markers 2 and 3 if you look at your rules) make sure you are down the fence line in the direction you want sheep to go and move slowly away from the sheep placing you dog on the fenceline behind the sheep if you can. This will help push the sheep off the fence and round the corner. Once they have turned try to put the dog on the inside of the sheep but not level with them so the fence covers one flank and the dog the other.You have 10 minutes to do the course and it is a simple pass/fail so there is no need to panic and try to rush and can reattempt the panels etc if you get it wrong the first time. Yes there is HEAPS of time for PT and you can walk through the gates so with a dog that maintains balance it is not difficult. I remember telling someone a few years ago that IMO a dog that will keep the sheep to the handler can get though PT with little to no training and I was shouted down that it was impossible. I proved that wrong with Jazz last year, and know of several other dogs that have done the same. So long as you can stop them. Janba is right - if it gets out of control, stop your dog. Wait, let everything calm down. The sheep will probably run back to the fence. That's fine. Wait until they have settled and then calmly go back, recollect and take them back to where you were and continue on. Janba, the corner you mentioned is never the problem here in SA. The problem we have is the corner down past 4. At about the 4 marker the sheep try and make a bolt as their pen is in the corner with the gate right in front of them. For the trial dogs the hardest part of the course is the turn at 4, especially in intermediate and advanced when you are away from dog and sheep so sheep quickly try and make a break. Dova, what I normally do for the change of direction is walk down the fence towards that corner, then at about the halfway mark turn and walk a few steps back up the fenceline, a balancing dog will swing around when you change directions and now be on the other side of the sheep, between them and the fence preventing them from bolting at that point. Unfortuantely the PT runs of Jazz's I have on video were at someone elses property so you can't see what I mean. The judges will take you out there for a walk and talk beforehand and all of the interstate judges in the past have already seen the draw and problem area of our setup by PT so have had good suggestions on ways to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 God all this herding talk is confusing - . Heaven help Kenzie if we decide to go any further all this PT stuff sounds complicated. I have to say I did learn a bit helping out as scribe last year at the duck trial before that my herding knowledge was absolutely zero . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 God all this herding talk is confusing - . Heaven help Kenzie if we decide to go any further all this PT stuff sounds complicated. I have to say I did learn a bit helping out as scribe last year at the duck trial before that my herding knowledge was absolutely zero . It makes more sense when you are in the paddock and can see it. Putting it into words is hard work I discovered! Watching different dogs and their ffect on the sheep and what differnt handlers do will also help. IMO it is worth watching the trial runs even though check in for tests is later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dova Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Thanks for that everyone , most helpfull. As for the "keep moving" my instructor always say's, yells, walk,walk, don't stand there like a stunned mullett, LOL. Because I've got 2 dog's that work totally different ways, Aussie & Coolie, I've just got to remember who's behind me & not get , then start trying to rush, gotta say though I'm really looking forward to it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 My novice tip for getting sheepies out of the corner - make sure that you are near the sheepies head! Often they stop and face the dog, so you need to switch positions with the dog. That usually gets things moving for me! I get to do this a lot as Poppy loves putting those sheep in the corner! The other tip from me would be get the gate to the pen open quickly!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 My novice tip for getting sheepies out of the corner - make sure that you are near the sheepies head! Often they stop and face the dog, so you need to switch positions with the dog. That usually gets things moving for me! I get to do this a lot as Poppy loves putting those sheep in the corner! The other tip from me would be get the gate to the pen open quickly!! It may work well at the test levels but it is not a good idea if you want to progress to the trial levels - far better have good flanks and stop so you can put the dog into a posn to lift the sheep off the fence. Repeatedly changing posn with the dog in corners could pattern the dog into this behaviour when the ssheep get stuck in a corner and make it harder later on particularly when you start to drive. Putting sheep in corners can be a lack of experience and confidence in a dog as once they are in a corner they are under control. In a trial level if you change posn with the dog and the sheep move towards you you will lose points for a retreat on course and depending on how you then get the sheep moving in the right direction again you could also get an offline. When the sheep stop and face the dog the sheep to try and put pressure on to get things moving is he one looking for somewhere to go not the one stamping at the dog or standing its ground. This also works at obstacles - you try to put the pressure on the sheep that are looking to go through the onbstacle or into the pen. It sounds easy when you write it down but not when your dog refuses to move over a foot or 2 because he wants to keep the pressure on the sheep standing him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 I thought that Dova was doing her PT not trial level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I thought that Dova was doing her PT not trial level. She is but herding is no different to teaching any other dog sport. If you let the dog get into the habit of doing something early on it is very hard work to correct it later. The test levels are a progression to the trial levels. If I had known what I do now when I had started Cole my initial training would have been very different as I am now having to put in a lot of training to try to correct my mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Dova asked about corners. Her trial is on the weekend therefore she has no time to train the dog before then. I gave her a tip to move the sheep if she gets stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Dova asked about corners. Her trial is on the weekend therefore she has no time to train the dog before then. I gave her a tip to move the sheep if she gets stuck. I appreciate that but I was just pointing out why it is not a good idea to do it all the time. In a trial you do do all you can to help a dog but in training do it properly. Piper gave good advice as to where the draw is at that trial and how to overcome the problems with the bottom corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dova Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Well tomorrows the big day & I'm sooo excited, I know, calm down it's only PT I'm not running for Priminister , but I'm really looking forward to it. With my instructor being away & not geting a last minute lesson I've just got to remember everything I've learned then get out there & enjoy myselfe. Woohoo bring it on the video's charged & the camera has new batteries I'm ready.Of course the worst part is I'll have to get servo on the way because none of my favorite places are open at that time of the morning , ahh but waddaya gunna do . Thanks again for all your tips everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 your more organised than me so far Dova. I still haven't thought about charging the video camera yet , or making sure there is space on it hehehehe. Sure you will do great . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dova Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 your more organised than me so far Dova. I still haven't thought about charging the video camera yet , or making sure there is space on it hehehehe. Sure you will do great . Thanks Ness, see you there. It's amazing what nervous tension makes you do . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Relax you will do brilliantly I am sure. The dogs don't need you anyway . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 Good luck guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Good luck tomorrow and hears hoping for bragging posts about passes. I hear on that you have a really nice judge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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