Rusky Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 of course that is the main aim, it is to teach loose leash walking whilst not having a shoulder ripped out. I don't believe a harness, halti or anything else should be on for more than a few weeks at the most... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Nekhbet,I agree totally!!! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 loose lead walking is something many clients find difficult. If loose lead walking was easy for everyone, all the no pull harnesses, martingales and headcollars wouldn't have been created! that's what we get paid to fix, no honestly I have not seen a dog that just pulls and then otherwise is a perfectly quiet, non pushy, snap to attention obedient dog. What I meant was that all the equipment in the world cannot help if the owner is not ready to learn or change, sometimes it just makes the whole experience less painful for all. Plus if the dog has a lunging problem as well it's a heck of a lot easier to stop a lunger with a DD collar then a harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 I understand where you're coming from Nekhbet- i just want to have as many tools and techniques up my sleeve as possible, in addition to all of the other things we discuss with clients- leadership etc. I never suggested that a piece of training equipment could help an owner who does not want to learn or change though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 loose lead walking is something many clients find difficult. If loose lead walking was easy for everyone, all the no pull harnesses, martingales and headcollars wouldn't have been created! I found they were useful for people to be able to use to take the dog for a walk and give it exercise without it pulling while workng on training the dog to not pull at other times. For example the people who like to walk the dog to school to pick up the kids and want to keep doing that and want to train the dog to walk nicely. A harness or head collar enables them to continue doing that without continually reinforcing the pulling on a lead while they teach loose lead walking as a seperate exercise at other times. Granted there ere unfortunately many people who see them as the solution and stop training once they are on but it was not how I recommended their use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Thats what i'm thinking too Piper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 i find all harnesses useless unless the attitude comes with themby then a collar works better there is no such dog that has a pull on the lead only problem. There is probably other things that structure during a walk can help as well which I believe in as a part of the overall lifestyle. They still cause discomfort to the dog but for prolonged periods and for most you will be giving a more prolonged sensation then if you just gave the dog a correction fitting for the dog in the first place. Must say I do agree with you Nekhbet, it is the same in the horseworld.... many trainers/riders love trying out all the new fandangled gimicks or latest fancy bits... but the underlying problems are still there.... I often find that the horse/dog will operate within the guidelines but there is a stiffness in their work. True softness comes when the human and animal develop an understanding of the mind. It is even more obvious with riding, as horses are not as forgiving as dogs and as soon as a distraction presents itself often horses jump at the chance for an excuse to resist. Often with scary consequences. I always tell my pupils that "95% of my training is for the 5% of time when things might go wrong". As a teacher tho I do consider that if the handler/rider needs help then these items might be a useful tool in the short term. The objective is however to go back to the basic equipment and not become dependent on the tool. Oopppsss sorry I'm getting on to my soapbox again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 But if a short term tool can make it easier for a handler/ rider to learn those skills, why would we not make it easy for them to learn and then remove the tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I tend to take Cosmolo's tact, if you've ever had anything to do with shelter dogs or people who work with shelter dogs there's one crucial thing you have to keep in mind when someone comes to you with a pulling problem- and that's the bond the person has with the dog. It's easy for me to say this is how you stop pulling, and for the client to see that I can get the dog to stop pulling, but if the most important thing in the world is for the client to be able to walk their dog sans frustration, then it's important that it happens as soon as possible. For some clients the bond with their dog has almost evaporated and this is the last straw. It's all well and good for us to wave them goodbye one day with a dog that doesn't pull but if it doesn't happen for the client the next day- that could be it. As trainers we have to remember that not every dog walks out of our class with great manners just because we could produce it in class, because dogs are dogs, humans are humans and old habits are hard to break. Maybe the no-pull harness is there more for the human than the dog, if it is that way, then so be it. Whatever works I say. I also deal these days primarily with medium and small dogs, and many handlers can not bring themselves to give any hard corrections- it may stop the pulling- but they can't bring themselves to do it. Just because they let you do it in class or in a private lesson doesn't mean they like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I also deal these days primarily with medium and small dogs, and many handlers can not bring themselves to give any hard corrections- it may stop the pulling- but they can't bring themselves to do it. Just because they let you do it in class or in a private lesson doesn't mean they like it. who says that is what I do? I have many techniques using collars and only a few require corrections. A collar is a valuable tool with various different pressure points, placement and use. Maybe the art of using collars is just slipping away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 16, 2009 Author Share Posted August 16, 2009 Thats right S+T- we do alot of work with ex shelter dogs and if people can't manage the dog in the short term, they return the dog. I don't think the art of using collars is lost. I think times have changed and there are things that make loose lead walking more difficult for some people. Alot of dogs receive less stimulation, less or different socialisation, have less company etc than 20 years ago and i think this has an impact as well as people being time poor and having higher expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I also deal these days primarily with medium and small dogs, and many handlers can not bring themselves to give any hard corrections- it may stop the pulling- but they can't bring themselves to do it. Just because they let you do it in class or in a private lesson doesn't mean they like it. who says that is what I do? I have many techniques using collars and only a few require corrections. A collar is a valuable tool with various different pressure points, placement and use. Maybe the art of using collars is just slipping away. It wasn't directed at you, it was just a general statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolassesLass Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Do any of you use no pull harnesses with the aim of transitioning the dog to a normal collar? Of course, that's always the aim. A no-pull harness is only a management tool for a problem and only practical in particular settings not everything. I found they were useful for people to be able to use to take the dog for a walk and give it exercise without it pulling while workng on training the dog to not pull at other times. Exactly. I got one because I had a neglected adolescent dog I was rehoming. His new owners were confident they could teach him to walk as they wanted with time but until then we needed to manage his pulling (more so lunging) so that the owners felt in control and not likely to be pulled over or into traffic etc. The harness gave them the confidence and physical ability to be in control so that he could be worn out with exercise as he needed, while they separately trained the correct walking position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumbeat Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 I'd be interested in hearing about the advantages of the front connect harness over the back connect ones if anyone here has used both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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