Quick Question About Training In Drive

[moosmum]

Hi Guys,

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.I have never trained in drive before and my 3yo dobe 1/8th rottiy girl sounds like a perfect candidate fort this type of training.She has a very extreme prey drive and this causes her to become very easily distracted with my old training methods.She has got much better as she has grown up,but no where near what I believe her potential could be.

My problem is we are fairly isolated and I can't get to "classes"of any sort nor afford the correspondence classes at this time.We will be re-locating hopefully next year and badly want to do some professional training then.

Links to other sites can be awkward too,as we are on solar power and satelite broadband,both very unreliable for long times spent on the p.c.and just too much time.

I am not confident I have the ideas right. ie:I assume you build the drive with the toys,then take it away and return it only when the dog has focused her attention on you and your 1st simple so as not to fail command,then build up to slowly to what you want?)

Anyway,without an experienced person to make corrections as needed,I am worried I may make some bad mistakes that may create serious problems.She is very FAST and agile.

She is great with our animals,kids etc. Very protective,but so prey driven its a pain.She found a rat trapped in the wall 4 days ago and was desperate to get it,chewing and clawing at the wood.We ended up taking a piece off the door frame and I managed to loop the tail of the rat to where she could grab it.The space was to small for the rat to get out,but she got it out anyway and we had no peace till she did.

So,if anyone can recommend a good D.V.D or books to get me started I would realy appreciate it.

Thanks for starting this thread and to all who have posted here,I don't mean to hijack.

[shoemonster]

The leerburg http://leerburg.com/ and Ivan Balabonv http://www.premierprotectiondogs.com/ dvds are great to start with, Id say better to get dvd's than books, as its better to see what they mean

Other people on here should be able to tell you where to get the dvds from, this is just one place I found in an old thread http://www.dogwise.com/search.cfm

K9 Force has a brilliant training in drive distance learning package that you can do, even with limited net access

http://www.k9force.net/

Edited December 26, 2009 by shoemonster

[Red Fox]

Quick question for both Shoemonster and Huski-

Why/how did you make the decision to train in food drive as opposed to prey drive?

Thanks

[huski]

Quick question for both Shoemonster and Huski-

Why/how did you make the decision to train in food drive as opposed to prey drive?

Thanks

Hi Secretkei

I started training Daisy in prey drive and if I had a choice I would always prefer to, but Daisy has a naturally much stronger food drive. It was easier for both of us to train in food drive and at the end of the day I don't think the results are any different.

For me it was simply using what my dogs naturally stronger drive is. The training is much the same too.

Edited December 26, 2009 by huski

[Red Fox]

Thanks Huski

I have recently started Kei on the TID DLP using prey drive but he's not doing as well as I would have hoped It may improve or it may not... only time will tell. I guess food drive would be the next step if prey is unsuccessful.

Of course we already have some fantastic guidance on it all but it's always great to hear what has/hasn't worked for others. The 'evil Beagle' has been quite an inspiration for me

[huski]

Thanks Huski

I have recently started Kei on the TID DLP using prey drive but he's not doing as well as I would have hoped It may improve or it may not... only time will tell. I guess food drive would be the next step if prey is unsuccessful.

That's exactly what I did. Started in prey drive but made the decision that food drive would be far more successful for Daisy.

Of course we already have some fantastic guidance on it all but it's always great to hear what has/hasn't worked for others. The 'evil Beagle' has been quite an inspiration for me

Awwww SK! You should see her in real life. Not so much of an inspiration in the flesh

ETA: I should add that knowing people who have done both prey and food drive that it can be hard to develop that drive to a point you are happy with in the beginning. I found the first module more challenging than I imagined. Being able to build drive to a high level and then get the dog going into drive reliably on a command word and maintaining that drive can be tough.

Edited December 26, 2009 by huski

[shoemonster]

Ed was lacking alot of confidence (and so was I) when we started prey drive and it just wasnt working as well as I would have liked, he also has a big drive for food, so we swapped a week or so into it to food and it just worked for him

Now he's alot more confident Ive actually started on prey drive for flyball, so will still use the food drive for obedience, and the prey for flyball, using different cues as well

My hubby has been doing his prey drive, as I'm 8 month preggo, and also he will be running him at flyball, I run Molly

Vid of Ed with the tug, this is taking it right back to the start, teaching him to give and teaching him his drive cue, and at the end telling him its all over

I've still got so much to learn, but its great having Steve watch over everything and let me know whats good and whats not so good, etc

[Tiggy]

Wow Ed loves his tug. Looks like your hubby was getting puffed out . Was that Molly wondering around in the background ?

[shoemonster]

Yeah Molly was off with her tucker ball she just runs around the paddock pushing it around!

Yeah, he loves it alot for a dog who's not really ever tugged before, and never been interested in tugging either

ETA yeah hubby does get puffed big time! The first session they had he ended up on his butt a few times

Edited December 26, 2009 by shoemonster

[Red Fox]

ETA: I should add that knowing people who have done both prey and food drive that it can be hard to develop that drive to a point you are happy with in the beginning. I found the first module more challenging than I imagined. Being able to build drive to a high level and then get the dog going into drive reliably on a command word and maintaining that drive can be tough.

Yep, I am finding that out the hard way I really didn't expect it to be so challenging either!

I think half of our problem is that Kei gets bored too quickly. I'm all raring to go and he's like 'Nah, I don't wanna play that game today'

Ed was lacking alot of confidence (and so was I) when we started prey drive and it just wasnt working as well as I would have liked, he also has a big drive for food, so we swapped a week or so into it to food and it just worked for him

Now he's alot more confident Ive actually started on prey drive for flyball, so will still use the food drive for obedience, and the prey for flyball, using different cues as well

My hubby has been doing his prey drive, as I'm 8 month preggo, and also he will be running him at flyball, I run Molly

Vid of Ed with the tug, this is taking it right back to the start, teaching him to give and teaching him his drive cue, and at the end telling him its all over

I've still got so much to learn, but its great having Steve watch over everything and let me know whats good and whats not so good, etc

Thanks Shoemonster. I have seen a few of your videos before- Ed is awesome!! I love the little snorts he makes when he chasing his tug too

[huski]

ETA: I should add that knowing people who have done both prey and food drive that it can be hard to develop that drive to a point you are happy with in the beginning. I found the first module more challenging than I imagined. Being able to build drive to a high level and then get the dog going into drive reliably on a command word and maintaining that drive can be tough.

Yep, I am finding that out the hard way I really didn't expect it to be so challenging either!

I think half of our problem is that Kei gets bored too quickly. I'm all raring to go and he's like 'Nah, I don't wanna play that game today'

I think a lot of dogs go through this.

Part of it is teaching them that if they don't want to play, tough, you won't do anything with them at all until the next session.

[moosmum]

The leerburg http://leerburg.com/ and Ivan Balabonv http://www.premierprotectiondogs.com/ dvds are great to start with, Id say better to get dvd's than books, as its better to see what they mean

Other people on here should be able to tell you where to get the dvds from, this is just one place I found in an old thread http://www.dogwise.com/search.cfm

K9 Force has a brilliant training in drive distance learning package that you can do, even with limited net access

http://www.k9force.net/

Hi Shoemonster and thankyou very much for that!

I certainly have a lot of choice now after checking the sites you gave. Between that and viewing clips from you folks posted here I can make a great start.

So much to learn but watching the clips is inspiring and helps to see whats meant to happen.So yeah,the D.V.Ds will be the go.

[corvus]

No, by tapping in to the dogs' PLAY drive. Tug is a game. Chasing a tug toy and grabbing it is a game. Pretending the tug toy is an animal is a game. Killing something is not a game.

In your opinion Prey drive is the desire to chase and grab a moving item. A tug is a moving item. The dog chases and grabs it. You can call it play drive all you like but that doesn't make it true, or mean that you know the dog doesn't see the tug as a prey item. How do you know that a dog doesn't see a toy as a prey item?

Yes, in my opinion, as a zoologist with experience in animal behaviour. Seriously, Huski, have you seen a dog kill an animal? It's so not the same as chasing a tug toy. UNLESS you're getting into that crossover zone. Here's a video I found that looks like what I think of as a crossover zone:

Do you think Greyhounds racing on the track see the fake rabbit as something other than a prey item? Or that all dogs who do lurecoursing see the lure as something other than a prey item? Are they all responding "play" drive? How do you know they are?

Yes, I think lure coursing in general is prey drive. For most hounds. I don't know, how do you? I say they are if they intend to rip the lure into little pieces if they get it. We had a Whippet cross when I was younger. She could chase a ball and it was a game, but chasing a roo/rabbit/rat etc was not. I would say that because of the body language. Play body language has a lot of wagging, high tails, open mouth with softish lips... that kind of thing. I associate prey drive with more serious body language. A lot more stiffness in the body, the tail doesn't wag and is stiff. How would you differentiate.

I still think you can see the intention in a dog's behaviour. There's totally a look they get and you can tell whether they are going to jump on the toy and tug on it, race off in pursuit of a small animal, or wolf down a piece of food. I've got to get a photo so maybe you can see what I'm talking about. Looking for it made me realise that excitement looks much the same across the board, though. It's the moment before the reward is delievered that looks different.

There's nothing wrong with doing tonnes of research (I do, to your surprise I'm sure) or forming your own opinion but stating it like it's fact, and implying that those who are far more experienced than you have it wrong is insulting.

Oh for Christ's sake. Not this again. How am I meant to have any kind of discussion if I have to put a disclaimer before every freaking statement? Take a good look at my language, Huski. I put in so many "my feeling is" and "I think" that I really think you're seeing what you want to see. You see implications where there are none and if these trainers are remotely threatened by me than I worry for them and all those that follow them.

Edited December 27, 2009 by corvus

[Cosmolo]

Corvus, do you think that prey drive needs to be satisified in a prey driven dog? What chemical rewards do you think prey drive produces that 'play drive' does not? If a dog was trained in 'play drive' and then placed in a situation where the dog entered prey drive, do you think play drive training would hold?

IMO I still think you are seeing differences in drive intensity, rather than different drives with the examples you are giving.

And yes i have seen a dog kill something and seen the same dog play tug and there were very few differences- which i believe were created by environmental variances.

[Erny]

Oh for Christ's sake. Not this again. How am I meant to have any kind of discussion if I have to put a disclaimer before every freaking statement? Take a good look at my language, Huski. I put in so many "my feeling is" and "I think" that I really think you're seeing what you want to see. You see implications where there are none and if these trainers are remotely threatened by me than I worry for them and all those that follow them.

You make statements, Corvus, and potentially ones which are detrimental to anyone who would think "gee, she is a zoologist, she must know .....". Such as ....

I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just saying make damn sure you're encouraging play drive and not prey drive.

I promise you that the trainers are NOT "remotely threatened by" you. It is more that we are concerned that others reading, who might assume that you have expertise in the field of "drive training" when you don't, may be influenced by your statements about it.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Erny

[huski]

What Erny said. In fact the sentence you quoted Erny was exactly the kind of statement I was referring to in my post.

[corvus]

I have never done any drive training and don't pretend to be any kind of training expert. But I'm a scientist and I observe and research as surely as I breath

Corvus .... I think the problem is that you don't understand how to train in drive. It's almost as though you think that by training in drive, you will have as little control as you would with a wild animal on the hunt.

Nonono, you're really missing the point. The point is what KIND of drive. The point is, you call it prey drive and I call it play drive. The point is, I think there's a difference. The point is, I think that what I call prey drive is not something that necessarily can be harnessed, or that you would want to. I say that because I think of prey drive as the thing that happens when a dog spends hours ripping through a wall. It's a great, strong, motivating drive, but it's not for kicks the way playing at hunting is. And it's not necessarily social. If you're going to bag what I'm saying then at least try to understand these fundamental points first.

Watching you with the flirt pole, I see you as thinking it is about just heightening the dog to the point of not thinking. And that is not "drive training" .... that's only the first component IE building drive. Although even then, I do it differently to how you are doing it by just whizzing around an item that your dog rarely gets to catch.

Ah, lovely, you've assessed my entire training style from a one minute fragment of video. As far as PLAY drive goes, I think of it as building motivation and anticipation, but coupling it with self control. That way you can use the motivation you've created with the self control to ask for things that will be performed fast and reliably thanks to your motivation and then reward with the king-sized reward you've been busy building motivation for.

As I've said, it is obviously bad if your dog has no self-control. I don't know why you would think I assume training in drive somehow skips that most vitally important of steps. I'm a little bit stunned that anyone would, but according to Leslie McDevitt, it happens quite a lot.

What research articles have you read on prey and play drive?

Eh, I didn't take note of them. Sorry. Have a look on Google Scholar if you are interested. I did a search on play drive, prey drive, predatory aggression and rough and tumble play and variations thereof. There's a really interesting one about rough and tumble play, though. Have a look on Google Scholar. That's interesting and potentially very useful stuff.

If I had my time again I think I would use it but less chasing and more tugging.

Something I mentioned when you put up the video clip on it. Yet in that thread, you were quite set against 'wins' as I suggested.

Yeah, I was misinformed. I've changed my mind about that. And this is exactly what I'm talking about. You read some stuff that's all about chase and bite and other stuff that's about tug. What do you choose? I chose chase and bite and now I've changed my mind to tug and push. I'm not TELLING everyone to do the same, but hey, obviously I think it's best or I wouldn't have done it.

You think that training a dog to achieve drive satisfaction through a tug, and to work for that satisfaction (result being reliable and fast command compliance) teaches the dog to kill things?

I'm really bewildered why this is apparently such a hard thing for people to understand. I'm saying tug and killing are DIFFERENT. I'm saying tug is PLAY and killing is PREY. I'm saying that I think there are subtleties to drive and that we shouldn't use play drive and prey drive interchangeably.

Have you seen a dog kill something, Erny? You have a hunting breed, don't you? If you don't see a difference I can't argue with that. I do see a difference, though.

Corvus, who have you been talking to? Or what books are you reading?

Wouldn't you like to know.

I've been saying I haven't done any drive training with my dogs despite the fact that I've been playing around with it for the last two years on and off. I say that because I wasn't entirely sure what people meant by drive training. I am still not entirely sure, because some people that put up videos with dogs training "in drive" look no different to my uber motivated pups working on a good reward history and nothing else. In my eyes, to be training "in drive" you need to have your dog at that level of excitement where he's a step below losing it. In addition, in my eyes he needs to never lose it, but only come down when given the cue to. If that makes sense. We are not able to do that yet, so therefore not drive training. Just building play drive and having fun and learning about each other.

[corvus]

Corvus, do you think that prey drive needs to be satisified in a prey driven dog? What chemical rewards do you think prey drive produces that 'play drive' does not? If a dog was trained in 'play drive' and then placed in a situation where the dog entered prey drive, do you think play drive training would hold?

I don't know, and I'm not afraid to say so.

I am not sure if a prey driven dog needs satisfaction from prey drive. I would say no at this point, as long as you play lots of drivey games instead. I think that play can be a substitute for hunting.

I think that any training if conditioned enough can hold where a dog goes into prey drive. That includes play drive.

IMO I still think you are seeing differences in drive intensity, rather than different drives with the examples you are giving.

And yes i have seen a dog kill something and seen the same dog play tug and there were very few differences- which i believe were created by environmental variances.

Mmm, my problem with the idea of drive intensity is that IME, a dog in prey drive is a thinking, problem-solving animal, whereas a dog over the top with play drive is not a thinking animal at all. Kivi couldn't begin to think about how to get my hare out of his cage, but Pyry does little else when he comes to visit. Kivi has lost it, but Pyry hasn't. I've seen Pyry so intense he has nearly lost it when he's going after something, but he never does. Maybe that's him, maybe not.

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Cosmolo.

Erny and Huski, I'm not about to apologise for daring to say something that other people might *gasp* listen to. I sometimes fear that people will listen to "experienced trainers". I mean, I had one tell me that raw food changes dogs' behaviour.

[Erny]

Have you seen a dog kill something, Erny? You have a hunting breed, don't you? If you don't see a difference I can't argue with that. I do see a difference, though.

Yes, I've seen a dog (not mine) kill another animal - mice, rats, wild rabbits. With my boy, the 'chase' component of that "drive" is not dissimilar to the 'chase' component of the tug. And when he gets the tug, whether I release it to him in a 'win' or hold it, the tug receives a good hard shake sometimes. But if he accidentally catches my hand with a tooth of his mouth (which happens very rarely these days), his ear set goes down a fraction and I see him hesitate, and his grip reduces. I've taught him this. I've harnessed that component of prey drive that comes with the blessing of his genetics and I've trained it to work for ME. As a result of that, I have a greater chance of calling him off other things that his genetics might otherwise dictate to trigger into prey drive towards.

I agree with Cosmolo. I think that what you are talking about when you refer to "play drive" is in fact "prey drive" but a reduced intensity of it.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Let me give an example- i'd be interestd in what you say Corvus as i quite like different trains of thought, even if i don't agree. By the way this is not what i base all of my thoughts on drive training on- just an example

I trained my dog Cosmo in what i considered to be prey drive, with a tug toy. When i took her to a herding workshop, the intensity of her prey drive increased but all of my training and commands held. Many other dogs that had been trained well but without prey drive did not have their obedience 'hold' as their drive over took former training.

So based on this, despite the fact that Cosmo did look quite different playing tug and chasing sheep (she's not the dog i was referring to before), i would be inclined to suggest the physiology behind both exercises was the same given that all of the training held. I know with certainty that the herding was predatory (couldn't mistake it) which leads me to believe that the tug was predatory too because if i had never trained using that drive, i don't believe you're likely to get responses (to commands etc) when the dog enters that drive on its own. Thoughts?

ETA in the above example- think about training once the dog is IN prey drive, not ABOUT to enter prey drive ( the latter is where i think your conditioning answer is accurate)

Edited December 27, 2009 by Cosmolo