How Many Breeds?

[Diablo]

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top.

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

This is what many people don't understand with the GSD Carlibud, those high prey drive lines are not correct either, they are bred to extremes in the same fashion as the GSD's with little prey drive at all. A good well balanced GSD can do it all, an "all rounder" is what they are supposed to be and is what the breed's versatility is all about. A good GSD could have been taken down the career path as a guard dog or a search and rescue dog or herding dog etc. The same dog had it been purchased by a pet owner could take on the role of a child's playmate and family companion and do that job just as well.

In other words, a good well bred and balanced GSD should have the genetic quality to take on "any" of the roles that the breed standards describe, not all at once from the same dog as training routines for specific jobs can increase or suppress certian traits and abilities, but any good quality puppy should be able to be assigned to any of the breeds given roles, trained accordingly and do the job well.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Diablo

[Diablo]

With the number of breeds whose 'job' is companionship, certainly people who do not want a high drive high energy breed can pick one of those instead of people watering down the smaller number of working breeds? Why change the breed so that it is less likely to be able to work just so that joe public can handle it?

Wow!!!, now we are talking sense.........Kavik, your comment in my opinion is 101% correct, great post

[carlibud]

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top.

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

This is what many people don't understand with the GSD Carlibud, those high prey drive lines are not correct either, they are bred to extremes in the same fashion as the GSD's with little prey drive at all. A good well balanced GSD can do it all, an "all rounder" is what they are supposed to be and is what the breed's versatility is all about. A good GSD could have been taken down the career path as a guard dog or a search and rescue dog or herding dog etc. The same dog had it been purchased by a pet owner could take on the role of a child's playmate and family companion and do that job just as well.

In other words, a good well bred and balanced GSD should have the genetic quality to take on "any" of the roles that the breed standards describe, not all at once from the same dog as training routines for specific jobs can increase or suppress certian traits and abilities, but any good quality puppy should be able to be assigned to any of the breeds given roles, trained accordingly and do the job well.

You are right Diablo the GSD is an all rounder, but you have to admit that most dogs that are seen by the average people are either the quieter family pets or the over the top high maintence hyper dog that needs occupying 24/7

Only us that own them really see the joining of the two

Which goes for all breeds anyway I guess.

I agree with Lilli though that if a breed as a whole is the same, dont get one if thats not the temp you want, but with other breeds that do have the quieter version, for the want of a better word ,we should be able to get the quieter lines or the higher prey drive,what ever suits our wants and/or needs but that is JMO of course.

I love the GSD's they are my breed, but I personally dont like the high maintence lines, I love my quieter, family pet types LOL But again thats my choice of what I want in my breed, whether it be incorrect or not :D By some that is.

[Sayly]

Border Terriers are great little earthdogs! Still doing what they should be doing.

The Irish as still great watchdogs, have good prey drive and the ones I know would kill a rat or rabbit or bird given half a chance, and bring it back to you if you asked. I know Ruby does - she hunts, catches, then gently brings the animal to us and drops it at our feet. Plus they are still great dogs for kids. They were bred as all round poor farm dogs - vermin hunters and watch dogs and were sometimes used as retrievers.

There are many Aussies out there with good herding instinct. Mine isn't one of them, but both of her parents have strong instinct I am told.

[carlibud]

Love your Irish terrier pic lyndsay , mum just had to have her old boy put down a couple of months ago, Danny, good Irish name hey. LOL

The Terriers and the Gundogs as general rule of thumb still seem to do alot of what they were bred for it seems, if not on a working basis of course but if given a chance they will hunt LOL

[Akayla]

Dont forget that even with really well bred lines there will still be different personalities in a litter. A good breeder will plave the quieter ones with the families and the more out going with work or sport ect.

[carlibud]

yes of course, Shadow Walker thats true SW .

And some will always get more from any dog than someone else would be able to.

Or like my girl, as a puppy she didnt seem overly hypo at all, but by the time she was ,I suppose, about 8 months OH MY GOD, she was over the top.

[Diablo]

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top.

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

This is what many people don't understand with the GSD Carlibud, those high prey drive lines are not correct either, they are bred to extremes in the same fashion as the GSD's with little prey drive at all. A good well balanced GSD can do it all, an "all rounder" is what they are supposed to be and is what the breed's versatility is all about. A good GSD could have been taken down the career path as a guard dog or a search and rescue dog or herding dog etc. The same dog had it been purchased by a pet owner could take on the role of a child's playmate and family companion and do that job just as well.

In other words, a good well bred and balanced GSD should have the genetic quality to take on "any" of the roles that the breed standards describe, not all at once from the same dog as training routines for specific jobs can increase or suppress certian traits and abilities, but any good quality puppy should be able to be assigned to any of the breeds given roles, trained accordingly and do the job well. :D

You are right Diablo the GSD is an all rounder, but you have to admit that most dogs that are seen by the average people are either the quieter family pets or the over the top high maintence hyper dog that needs occupying 24/7

Only us that own them really see the joining of the two

Which goes for all breeds anyway I guess.

I agree with Lilli though that if a breed as a whole is the same, dont get one if thats not the temp you want, but with other breeds that do have the quieter version, for the want of a better word ,we should be able to get the quieter lines or the higher prey drive,what ever suits our wants and/or needs but that is JMO of course.

I love the GSD's they are my breed, but I personally dont like the high maintence lines, I love my quieter, family pet types LOL But again thats my choice of what I want in my breed, whether it be incorrect or not ;) By some that is.

As they saying goes which is very true Carlibud, the GSD is not the best dog at any one task, there are breeds that can do one task better, but the GSD is second best at "everything"

[Diablo]

Dont forget that even with really well bred lines there will still be different personalities in a litter. A good breeder will plave the quieter ones with the families and the more out going with work or sport ect.

Yes, they do vary in personality likewise some from a great litter an odd one can be faulty in health, temperament, conformation etc etc.........nothing provides a total guarantee???.

[BJean]

I think what the Weim club in Germany is doing is fantastic BUT I don't know if something like that would work in a country like Australia? We (pedigree dogs) are already losing out in numbers to designer breeds and BYB dogs - if pedigree breeders heaped more restrictions/requirements onto prospective owners, would they still bother?

Putting restrictions on who can buy would not work in isolation, it is part of a sales process.

What they have done is build up their brand 'Weimeraner' and make it as good quality as they can. They market that, and the restrictions don't come in until after the buyer has decided what they want and the salesperson qualifies the sale (or more accurately, the breeder enforces restrictions).

No different from selling Mercedes. The manufactureres and marketers make people desire it. But not everyone that wants one will qualify to buy. With a car the only qualifier is price, with a Weimeraner it is price and the restrictions. They don't lose sales, the restrictions make the product even more exclusive and attractive. They are not for Joe Average, but neither are most of the other finer things in life, and the Weimeraner buyers know that.

In Australia, we don't see many dogs being sold that way. In our business we have made a real effort to build up our brand, and that makes it easier for us to sell more dogs, and people want our dogs even though we have restrictions too. But if you have the restrictions without the marketing and the quality control, it isn't going to work.

I think all pedigreed breeds should be sold or recognised almost like a brand.

let the masses have oodles, those who want something special and a cut above the rest will get the brand/breed of their choosing.

prestige cars can't be had by all and so can't the best dogs.

it would not hurt if pedigreed dogs became a status symbol.

Let the medicore have their mongrels and modpets,

can't be casting pearls amongst swine anyway

Edited January 6, 2010 by lilli

[SparkyTansy]

I think what the Weim club in Germany is doing is fantastic BUT I don't know if something like that would work in a country like Australia? We (pedigree dogs) are already losing out in numbers to designer breeds and BYB dogs - if pedigree breeders heaped more restrictions/requirements onto prospective owners, would they still bother?

Putting restrictions on who can buy would not work in isolation, it is part of a sales process.

What they have done is build up their brand 'Weimeraner' and make it as good quality as they can. They market that, and the restrictions don't come in until after the buyer has decided what they want and the salesperson qualifies the sale (or more accurately, the breeder enforces restrictions).

No different from selling Mercedes. The manufactureres and marketers make people desire it. But not everyone that wants one will qualify to buy. With a car the only qualifier is price, with a Weimeraner it is price and the restrictions. They don't lose sales, the restrictions make the product even more exclusive and attractive. They are not for Joe Average, but neither are most of the other finer things in life, and the Weimeraner buyers know that.

In Australia, we don't see many dogs being sold that way. In our business we have made a real effort to build up our brand, and that makes it easier for us to sell more dogs, and people want our dogs even though we have restrictions too. But if you have the restrictions without the marketing and the quality control, it isn't going to work.

I think all pedigreed breeds should be sold or recognised almost like a brand.

let the masses have oodles, those who want something special and a cut above the rest will get the brand/breed of their choosing.

prestige cars can't be had by all and so can't the best dogs.

it would not hurt if pedigreed dogs became a status symbol.

Let the medicore have their mongrels and modpets,

can't be casting pearls amongst swine anyway

Yes they used to be a status symbol and many still believe that is what they are... but i am not sure that is what is best if we want the future of our breeds to continue? how can we maintain the genepool if we are breeding only a few who want them, can afford them plus meet any requirements for them? it's not like 100 years ago when culling was the norm... particularly now since we have ARSPCA on our case...

Definitely damned if you do damned if you don't situation..

[carlibud]

Yes of course these high prey dogs can be great pets Greytmate, but alot need more than the average family pet, from as you say, very committed owners, as you say.

Which is the point we were trying to make, when the dogs are trained for these test's overseas from the Breed Clubs, because as you say, they need the high prey drive to do it.

But I guess its why these dogs having undergone these tests, and passing them, are imported to keep these strong drives in our dogs here

But then again in saying what you have about getting a different breed Greytmate, not all Wei's are like that,are they, so the average family can still get the breed of their choice, or do they tend to be high maintenence breed???? ( as in high prey drive I mean)The ones I have had to do with havnt been over the top.

Or is it in a general sense, like the GSd's more just some lines, that are like this??

This is what many people don't understand with the GSD Carlibud, those high prey drive lines are not correct either, they are bred to extremes in the same fashion as the GSD's with little prey drive at all. A good well balanced GSD can do it all, an "all rounder" is what they are supposed to be and is what the breed's versatility is all about. A good GSD could have been taken down the career path as a guard dog or a search and rescue dog or herding dog etc. The same dog had it been purchased by a pet owner could take on the role of a child's playmate and family companion and do that job just as well.

In other words, a good well bred and balanced GSD should have the genetic quality to take on "any" of the roles that the breed standards describe, not all at once from the same dog as training routines for specific jobs can increase or suppress certian traits and abilities, but any good quality puppy should be able to be assigned to any of the breeds given roles, trained accordingly and do the job well. :D

You are right Diablo the GSD is an all rounder, but you have to admit that most dogs that are seen by the average people are either the quieter family pets or the over the top high maintence hyper dog that needs occupying 24/7

Only us that own them really see the joining of the two

Which goes for all breeds anyway I guess.

I agree with Lilli though that if a breed as a whole is the same, dont get one if thats not the temp you want, but with other breeds that do have the quieter version, for the want of a better word ,we should be able to get the quieter lines or the higher prey drive,what ever suits our wants and/or needs but that is JMO of course.

I love the GSD's they are my breed, but I personally dont like the high maintence lines, I love my quieter, family pet types LOL But again thats my choice of what I want in my breed, whether it be incorrect or not ;) By some that is.

As they saying goes which is very true Carlibud, the GSD is not the best dog at any one task, there are breeds that can do one task better, but the GSD is second best at "everything"

i agree wholeheartdly of course LOL

[mita]

I think all pedigreed breeds should be sold or recognised almost like a brand.

let the masses have oodles, those who want something special and a cut above the rest will get the brand/breed of their choosing.

prestige cars can't be had by all and so can't the best dogs.

it would not hurt if pedigreed dogs became a status symbol.

Let the medicore have their mongrels and modpets,

can't be casting pearls amongst swine anyway

I understand what you're saying....even tho' people might jump to the conclusion it's elitism.

No, you're being practical. Many of the pure breeds have distinct behavioral traits....as well as conformation...that make a breed unique. All of which should be preserved.

And only owners up-to-speed with what they are....& who are prepared to work along with them....should own that breed.

This is pointed out re tibetan spaniels on the international Tibbies Net site, where the best of the international breeders gather.

Here's the page where they ask people to consider, this may not be the breed for them:

http://www.tibbies.net/right_breed.html

So long as there's depth of understanding re what's involved with a specific pure breed, then fine.

But problems come when 'status symbol' means something shallow.

For example, a US breeders said, she heard a chilling remark from a couple of New York socialites who were watching the Westminster Dog Show. As the tibetan spaniels came into the ring, one woman remarked to the other, 'Here's the Tibetan Spaniels. Now take special notice of them. They're very 'in'. Because anything to do with Buddhism is very 'in' at the moment.'

Edited January 6, 2010 by mita

[Greytmate]

No need to worry. Weims might be like mercedes, but staffies are like fords, and labradors like holdens. We all have to market our brand to the right demographic.

Marketing the brand is more than just creating a logo and a T-shirt and setting up at Pet Expo. We have to get our product right first and really think about who we would like to sell to. We have to target that section of the market and educate them about the breed.

It is not necessary that every breed is well-represented in the Australian pet market. It has come to a time when we should be thinking more globally about dog genetics.

[BJean]

I think all pedigreed breeds should be sold or recognised almost like a brand.

let the masses have oodles, those who want something special and a cut above the rest will get the brand/breed of their choosing.

prestige cars can't be had by all and so can't the best dogs.

it would not hurt if pedigreed dogs became a status symbol.

Let the medicore have their mongrels and modpets,

can't be casting pearls amongst swine anyway

I understand what you're saying....even tho' people might jump to the conclusion it's elitism.

No, you're being practical. Many of the pure breeds have distinct behavioral traits....as well as conformation...that make a breed unique. All of which should be preserved.

And only owners up-to-speed with what they are....& who are prepared to work along with them....should own that breed.

This is pointed out re tibetan spaniels on the international Tibbies Net site, where the best of the international breeders gather.

Here's the page where they ask people to consider, this may not be the breed for them:

http://www.tibbies.net/right_breed.html

It is

I don't see anything wrong with it. Well bred pedigreed dogs from dediccted breeders ARE better than mongrels and owners of pedigreeds (word? ) should be proud to own the dogs they do.

Everyone appreciates a well bred animal, horse owners walk their stock with pride, a fit healthy thoroughbred, beautiful Arabian, impressive Percheron, striking Appaloosa - they all enthrall, inspire and capture the imagination -

same with an awesome Newfoundland, elegant Borzoi, spritely hound, devoted Tibbie, handsome Labrador, or pretty Yorkshire ...

Cross breeds are no more than a disgruntled dog owner's effort

to achieve the attributes of an ideal dog

that they first became aware of

through a pedigreed pure bred.

So long as there's depth of understanding re what's involved with a specific pure breed, then fine.

But problems come when 'status symbol' means something shallow.

For example, a US breeders said, she heard a chilling remark from a couple of New York socialites who were watching the Westminster Dog Show. As the tibetan spaniels came into the ring, one woman remarked to the other, 'Here's the Tibetan Spaniels. Now take special notice of them. They're very 'in'. Because anything to do with Buddhism is very 'in' at the moment.'

Yes problems can come from status symbols, but i think more problems come when we don't have the pride to stand up and away, on our own merit

NB: to borrow an analogy from greytmate -

we've been marketing pedigree dogs like fords

when most of the populace dont want anything more than a datsun.

So let them have the datsuns, ford and holden hybrids

no one remembers those cars anyway

no more markdowns to fit in with common perception -

bentleys, mercedes, porsche, lamborghini (lol which dog are you )

Edited January 6, 2010 by lilli

[Tiara]

I think all pedigreed breeds should be sold or recognised almost like a brand.

let the masses have oodles, those who want something special and a cut above the rest will get the brand/breed of their choosing.

prestige cars can't be had by all and so can't the best dogs.

it would not hurt if pedigreed dogs became a status symbol.

Let the medicore have their mongrels and modpets,

can't be casting pearls amongst swine anyway

I understand what you're saying....even tho' people might jump to the conclusion it's elitism.

No, you're being practical. Many of the pure breeds have distinct behavioral traits....as well as conformation...that make a breed unique. All of which should be preserved.

And only owners up-to-speed with what they are....& who are prepared to work along with them....should own that breed.

This is pointed out re tibetan spaniels on the international Tibbies Net site, where the best of the international breeders gather.

Here's the page where they ask people to consider, this may not be the breed for them:

http://www.tibbies.net/right_breed.html

It is

I don't see anything wrong with it. Well bred pedigreed dogs from dediccted breeders ARE better than mongrels and owners of pedigreeds (word? ) should be proud to own the dogs they do.

Everyone appreciates a well bred animal, horse owners walk their stock with pride, a fit healthy thoroughbred, beautiful Arabian, impressive Percheron, striking Appaloosa - they all enthrall, inspire and capture the imagination -

same with an awesome Newfoundland, elegant Borzoi, spritely hound, devoted Tibbie, handsome Labrador, or pretty Yorkshire ...

Cross breeds are no more than a disgruntled dog owner's effort

to achieve the attributes of an ideal dog

that they first became aware of

through a pedigreed pure bred.

So long as there's depth of understanding re what's involved with a specific pure breed, then fine.

But problems come when 'status symbol' means something shallow.

For example, a US breeders said, she heard a chilling remark from a couple of New York socialites who were watching the Westminster Dog Show. As the tibetan spaniels came into the ring, one woman remarked to the other, 'Here's the Tibetan Spaniels. Now take special notice of them. They're very 'in'. Because anything to do with Buddhism is very 'in' at the moment.'

Yes problems can come from status symbols, but i think more problems come when we don't have the pride to stand up and away, on our own merit ;)

NB: to borrow an analogy from greytmate -

we've been marketing pedigree dogs like fords

when most of the populace dont want anything more than a datsun.

So let them have the datsuns, ford and holden hybrids

no one remembers those cars anyway

no more markdowns to fit in with common perception -

bentleys, mercedes, porsche, lamborghini (lol which dog are you )

Great post lilli, i completley agree.

@ the bolded part, but so true.

[Sayly]

Love your Irish terrier pic lyndsay , mum just had to have her old boy put down a couple of months ago, Danny, good Irish name hey. LOL

The Terriers and the Gundogs as general rule of thumb still seem to do alot of what they were bred for it seems, if not on a working basis of course but if given a chance they will hunt LOL

Thanks! She's a great dog, great family pet while still retaining the Irish personality! Her brother is also a Danny. Great name. What kennels was your Mum's from? PM me if you would prefer.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

no more markdowns to fit in with common perception -

bentleys, mercedes, porsche, lamborghini (lol which dog are you )

I just have to post this video link now:

(involves a luxury car and Heidi Klum taking the back seat to let another gorgeous blonde ride shotgun)

[carlibud]

Love your Irish terrier pic lyndsay , mum just had to have her old boy put down a couple of months ago, Danny, good Irish name hey. LOL

The Terriers and the Gundogs as general rule of thumb still seem to do alot of what they were bred for it seems, if not on a working basis of course but if given a chance they will hunt LOL

Thanks! She's a great dog, great family pet while still retaining the Irish personality! Her brother is also a Danny. Great name. What kennels was your Mum's from? PM me if you would prefer.

Not sure if she knows but possibly 2P's does( my sister LOL) Will see if she knows, he was a sort of rescue as such, as his elderly owner had died and he was in the kennels till the daughter could find a home for him, but he was a real sweetheart.

We had one when we were kids, gee 40 years ago I guess But she was gorgeous too.

Hey that is so true Lilli Love it.

[myValkyrie]

Cross breeds are no more than a disgruntled dog owner's effort

to achieve the attributes of an ideal dog

that they first became aware of

through a pedigreed pure bred.

Sorry to cut your post Lilli - but that is just everything I wanted to say - brilliant