angelsun Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 It's tricky to try to calculate and keep everyone happy...for example, my puppy last year had less than half the shows that the #1 rising star did and yet was only about 75 points behind....quality versus quantity...but how on earth do you try to calculate and reward that? She also had far more 'in group' wins plus an 'in specialty show' win..... This sort of thing makes it very hard to get a clear picture of which dogs were in fact bigger/better winners....I don't have the answer as I had a problem with the Canadian system as well that didn't truly reflect a better winning dog versus a dog that had one win at a larger show and ended up on top... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I think the fairer the system for the majority, then more will enter - That's what i have been hearing for the last 2 years. perhaps Troy can nut it out and then do a poll or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundoglover Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I wasn't suggesting that we adjust DOL for people's individual life-styles and choices. However, if geography dictates a maximum number of shows for a significant minority of DOL people, then it seems to me that it would be fairer to set that number as the limit rather than picking an arbitrary number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weisnjac Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Just another thought. For the Breed score, some states have far greater numbers being shown than others, is it fare that some states just dont have the breed numbers? Example: JRT's in Vic, at most shows have an entry of around 6 - 10. NSW have 20 or more. If a dog in Vic is a consistent winner but is only awarded 8 pts in the pointscore, it will be hard to beat a dog with a few wins of 20+. Not sure if I'm likeing this idea anymore. 30 shows x 8 entries = 240 15 shows x 20 entries = 300 someone in a state where they have bigger numbers could win with only winning at half the mount of shows? Not sure if I'm missing something or not. It just doesn't sound right that a big winner in breed level in one state can be beaten by a sometimes winner in anther state. The Breed scores the way they are now seems a lot fairer to me. For Group or Best in Shows, I like the idea but not for Breeds. It would be OK for State Pointscore but Nationally I don't think it would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I get what your saying, but I don't see why those with more competition should be penalised if they do less shows. 30 shows x 8 entries = 24015 shows x 20 entries = 300 - They still beat the most numbers of that breed, which is what the Best Of Breed leader board is about. Last week we had 32 Danes out at Bulla, this weekend 8 at KCC park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessnSean Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Weren't the pointscores originally about increasing entries at dog shows? How does limiting the scoring to a certain number of shows help increase show entry? I do understand what you are trying to achieve but can see what the others are saying about less shows/lower numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weisnjac Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) I get what your saying, but I don't see why those with more competition should be penalised if they do less shows. They shouldn't and they wouldn't, how would they? Going by your suggestion, they wouldn't have to enter many shows at all to be up the top. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, just that it wont effect them, it will effect those states with low breed numbers. The fact is, 32 danes were shown in VIC. We don't have 32 Jacks shown in Vic..... EVER, I don't think our Champ shows even had that many entries Yet in Sydney, thats probebly what they get some weekends. People are shouting out to make this fairer for all. Changing the Breed to a certain amount of shows per year will do the exact opposite to many breeds IMO. Edited February 7, 2010 by weisnjac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I picked a random breed to do this. Dog A Original points for the BOB comp - 199 Top 30 scores = 118 Finished in #1 - Did 72 shows Breed average of 3 per show Dog B Original points for the BOB comp - 140 Top 30 scores = 140 Finished in #2 - Did 8 shows Breed average of 18 per show If it was capped at 30 shows, dog B would have won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 People are shouting out to make this fairer for all. Changing the Breed to a certain amount of shows per year will do the exact opposite to many breeds IMO. I have spoken to many people and they say the opposite, they say they are more likely to enter. I think a POLL run by Troy would be great, once he has ideas to go with etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 We don't have 32 Jacks shown in Vic..... EVER, I don't think our Champ shows even had that many entries Yet in Sydney, thats probebly what they get some weekends. There was exactly 32 entered at the Vic champ show this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weisnjac Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 We don't have 32 Jacks shown in Vic..... EVER, I don't think our Champ shows even had that many entries Yet in Sydney, thats probebly what they get some weekends. There was exactly 32 entered at the Vic champ show this year :D There were a few absent I promised myself I wouldn't get into this again. I'm out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 We don't have 32 Jacks shown in Vic..... EVER, I don't think our Champ shows even had that many entries Yet in Sydney, thats probebly what they get some weekends. There was exactly 32 entered at the Vic champ show this year There were a few absent :D I promised myself I wouldn't get into this again. I'm out There always seems to be a few absent no mater what show or breed your in. There was also 48 at Melb Royal. Your no fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) Dog A Original points for the BOB comp - 755 Top 30 scores = 585 Finished in #1 - Did 57 shows Breed average of 14 per show Dog B Original points for the BOB comp - 661 Top 30 scores = 513 Finished in #2 - Did 48 shows Breed average of 14 per show Difference of 94 old 2009 system Difference of 72 new 2011 system Dog A would win at both systems Old and the new 30-40show rules if it came in. * If dog B did an extra 9 shows (that would make it 57 shows each) And had the same average of 14 entries per show x 9 = 126 They would have been #1 with 787 Edited February 7, 2010 by SwaY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weisnjac Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 Your no fun Nope, I don't care enough Whatever happens will happen, doesn't matter what I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peaceful Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 I think if dog B did less shows but beat more competition that is the dog who should win. Just because some people can do alot more shows but mostly only beat dogs of their own breeding shouldn't mean that they are the better dog by the BOB PS Comp. I still dont like that RUBOB gets only 1 less point than the BOB winner. If there are 2 dogs and 1 gets only ever gets BOB but gets beaten by the other dog on the PS who gets mostly RUBOB but did alot more shows, then it is not fair that the 2nd dog wins the PS and can claim they have the BOB PS winner. That is not fair in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) Dog A Original points for the BOB comp - 321 Top 30 scores = 177 Finished in #5 - Did 76 shows Breed average of 1 per show Dog B Original points for the BOB comp - 233 Top 30 scores = 224 Finished in #12 - Did 35 shows Breed average of 7 per show Dog B would have won under the best 30 results for the BREED. ETA Sorry, should have said, Dog B have beaten Dog A as i did not use the top two winners to work this one out. Edited February 7, 2010 by SwaY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted February 7, 2010 Share Posted February 7, 2010 (edited) I disagree with the post re runnerup BOB. Its a case of always the bridesmaid never the bride. In our breed with 1 dog constantly wining the only chance soemone else has is RUBOB. This result is constanlty a different dog. So many other dogs can come second which is still a good result as often they may have won their class in group and class in show or been knocked out by BIS/RUBIS. EFT. Edited February 7, 2010 by Bilbo Baggins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellcara Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I have spoken to many people and they say the opposite, they say they are more likely to enter.I think a POLL run by Troy would be great, once he has ideas to go with etc. I'm with you Sway I too have spoken with many people who like the idea of a 30 show "capping". A poll would be great. For many people they can't show every weekend, they can't go away to 4 or 5 show weekend circuits.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I disagree with the post re runnerup BOB.Its a case of always the bridesmaid never the bride. In our breed with 1 dog constantly wining the only chance soemone else has is RUBOB. This result is constanlty a different dog. So many other dogs can come second which is still a good result as often they may have won their class in group and class in show or been knocked out by BIS/RUBIS. EFT. I agree here. RUBOB is still a great result in breeds that are numerically strong (eg Labs, goldens, staffords etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogone Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 I have spoken to many people and they say the opposite, they say they are more likely to enter.I think a POLL run by Troy would be great, once he has ideas to go with etc. I'm with you Sway I too have spoken with many people who like the idea of a 30 show "capping". A poll would be great. For many people they can't show every weekend, they can't go away to 4 or 5 show weekend circuits.... I agree. I think would make it a much fairer way to run the pointscore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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