Puppies Registration Papers

[Ozstar]

Ellz, what you are trying to educate me with, is a comfort zone that some breeders fall into that they think is fair practice. I understand why some don't provide papers on collection...........but to cover yourself to help avoid the situation that the OP has raised, witholding final payment from the breeder until the papers arrive and the deal is completed is also fair practice in the circumstances. Naturally the breeders wouldn't like the idea of money being withheld anymore than the owners like chasing their papers for months from breeders too lazy to honour their obligation in a reasonable time. When you have paid the money and upheld your end of the deal, to have to suffer with dramas trying to obtain your papers has got knobs on it and shouldn't happen.

If buyers want their papers when they take their pup that is fine BUT it will not be 8 weeks old.

Puppy buyers need to be made aware that not all registered breeders are good ethical breeders. Don't just buy a pup from the first breeder that has one available NOW, research the breeders, get to know the breeders and then if you feel secure with them put your name down for a pup.

Most puppy buyers do not want to wait and will buy from the first breeder that has pups ready to go and that is why these problems accure.

Leanne

[Mas1981]

I got my pups papers the day we collected him, he is on the limited register. If a breeder wants to they can then upgrade the dog to the main register.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

[Black Bronson]

Rather than all the giggly emoticons, why doesn't someone give an educated response to BBs posts...

Because BB doesn't WANT an educated response. BB wants to argue. BB knows ALL of the answers. I would hasten a guess that the combined knowledge base in this thread would add up to over a century of experience, yet BB who it would seem is NOT an experienced dog breeder knows more than all of us combined.

Ellz, what you are trying to educate me with, is a comfort zone that some breeders fall into that they think is fair practice. I understand why some don't provide papers on collection...........but to cover yourself to help avoid the situation that the OP has raised, witholding final payment from the breeder until the papers arrive and the deal is completed is also fair practice in the circumstances. Naturally the breeders wouldn't like the idea of money being withheld anymore than the owners like chasing their papers for months from breeders too lazy to honour their obligation in a reasonable time. When you have paid the money and upheld your end of the deal, to have to suffer with dramas trying to obtain your papers has got knobs on it and shouldn't happen.

BB, the breeders who cause issues for puppy purchasers are thankfully the minority. Why change or complain about a system which really does work well and has done for many years just because there are a few rotten apples in the barrel?

Part of the problem is that puppy purchasers do not take more care about selecting the breeders from whom they purchase their puppies, NOT the fact that the papers are not back from the canine controlling body etc.

We can't always blame the puppy buyer, as often they don't know. All they know is that they like a particular breed and have taken the registered breeder routine thinking they are going about purchasing a quality puppy the right way. The breeder is nice and pleasant, the puppies are on the ground, emotions take over once a beautiful puppy is in their arms and little to their knowledge, have chosen a breeder who is as slippery as a s^*thouse rat in one way or another:eek:

Yes I agree the slippery breeders are a minority, but there are some and some buyers who get caught through inexperience and turns what should be an exciting and pleasurable experience purchasing a new puppy into a can of worms.

[Mas1981]

does anyone know how the OP's friend got on???

You all went a little OT for me to tell

I am waiting to hear back from him, havent had a chance to phone him again as I have had my own dog at the vet tonight etc.

[Ozstar]

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

All of that info should be in your pups folder. You should have copies of the parents health checks/results.

I would not buy a pup without copies.

Leanne

[ellz]

I got my pups papers the day we collected him, he is on the limited register. If a breeder wants to they can then upgrade the dog to the main register.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home.

For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back.

Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home.

Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

[whippets]

agree with Ellz.

WOW 50 page folder. I saved all my paperwork into a PDF format and Word (toilet training, dogs and kids, breed standard, care information). I find that much easier than collating booklets. I just email it all a week before they pick up the puppy so they can prepare and get everything ready (beds, toys, leads, crate etc). Saves the trees that way to

If they are interstate I just snail mail the micro chip info and papers.

[ellz]

I find that much easier than collating booklets.

One of the benefits of being married to a printer!

[Ozstar]

A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home.

For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back.

Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home.

Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

Very well said Ellz.

The majority of my buyers don't even care about the papers, they just want a healthy, well cared for pup from health tested parents and raised in a loving enviroment. Most of buyers keep constant contact and quite a few have become very good friends.

I post my folders out a week before the pups leave.

Leanne

Edited May 26, 2010 by Ozstar Kennels

[Black Bronson]

I got my pups papers the day we collected him, he is on the limited register. If a breeder wants to they can then upgrade the dog to the main register.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected ;)

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home.

For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back.

Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home.

Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks

[ellz]

I got my pups papers the day we collected him, he is on the limited register. If a breeder wants to they can then upgrade the dog to the main register.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected ;)

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home.

For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back.

Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home.

Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks

I chose NOT to get it done in 10 weeks. I register everything except what I keep for myself on Limited Registration. They are my puppies and I choose what I keep first. I am in no particular hurry to get it done and as I have already said, ANKC rules say that it can be done up to 18 months of age. Either a puppy purchaser trusts me, or they go somewhere else. Simple as that.

Editing to add: And once again, as I have said from a previous thread. If you insist upon just selecting bits and pieces from people's responses, then please do them the courtesy of doing so in context rather than just selecting ONE sentence that appeals to you and ignoring the relevant information from around it.

You are being deliberately obtuse and it is very little wonder that your responses receive very little respect from other posters.

Edited May 26, 2010 by ellz

[Ozstar]

How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks

I choose not to put my papers in until the pups have been microcipped (so that the number can go on their papers) and I have chosen the pups I am keeping. This is not done till they are 8 weeks old.

As I said earlier by the time I register the litter, then transfer the papers into the new owners name it can take up to 3 months. It also depends on the time of year as it can take longer around Christmas/New Year due to the office being closed.

How many times and ways do we need to type this for you to understand

You are being deliberately obtuse and it is very little wonder that your responses receive very little respect from other posters.

Leanne

[Black Bronson]

I got my pups papers the day we collected him, he is on the limited register. If a breeder wants to they can then upgrade the dog to the main register.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home.

For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back.

Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home.

Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks

I chose NOT to get it done in 10 weeks. I register everything except what I keep for myself on Limited Registration. They are my puppies and I choose what I keep first. I am in no particular hurry to get it done and as I have already said, ANKC rules say that it can be done up to 18 months of age. Either a puppy purchaser trusts me, or they go somewhere else. Simple as that.

Editing to add: And once again, as I have said from a previous thread. If you insist upon just selecting bits and pieces from people's responses, then please do them the courtesy of doing so in context rather than just selecting ONE sentence that appeals to you and ignoring the relevant information from around it.

You are being deliberately obtuse and it is very little wonder that your responses receive very little respect from other posters.

So basically you are saying Ellz, to hell with the prospective buyers feelings on the matter it's your way or no way???.

Don't you think that is rather an arrogant attitude to have towards your customers???. ;)

[SparkyTansy]

Maybe Ellz doesn't see her puppies as merchandise to be sold like you obviously do BB... Believe it or not, there are breeders out there that are breeding to improve the breed, not just pump out puppies to sell to the pet market.

I would happily say to hell with anyone that doesn't understand and accept the processes I choose for MY puppies (and they are my puppies until the money changes hands). I would rather sell a puppy to someone with whom I have a good relationship and a mutual trust than to someone who insists I register their pup early and give them the papers when they pick up the pup or they walk away. i would rather they walk away.

There are some bad breeders out there who will not give out papers despite their promises... and on a forum such as this where people come on asking for advice about their purebred puppies, those situations are going to be noticeable... right so there are two active threads at the moment about people that haven't received their papers. How many purebred dog owners are there on this forum who HAVE papers from their breeders who have had NO need for complaint, even if they didn't get their papers when they picked up the puppy? Certainly more than you would ever be willing to acknowledge BB...

[Black Bronson]

Maybe Ellz doesn't see her puppies as merchandise to be sold like you obviously do BB... Believe it or not, there are breeders out there that are breeding to improve the breed, not just pump out puppies to sell to the pet market.

I would happily say to hell with anyone that doesn't understand and accept the processes I choose for MY puppies (and they are my puppies until the money changes hands). I would rather sell a puppy to someone with whom I have a good relationship and a mutual trust than to someone who insists I register their pup early and give them the papers when they pick up the pup or they walk away. i would rather they walk away.

There are some bad breeders out there who will not give out papers despite their promises... and on a forum such as this where people come on asking for advice about their purebred puppies, those situations are going to be noticeable... right so there are two active threads at the moment about people that haven't received their papers. How many purebred dog owners are there on this forum who HAVE papers from their breeders who have had NO need for complaint, even if they didn't get their papers when they picked up the puppy? Certainly more than you would ever be willing to acknowledge BB...

Yes, many breeders do provide the papers at a later date with no issues, but what I am acknowledging is that collecting a puppy without the papers has a risk attached as some have found out. It's no consolation for the buyer that does get duded on their papers to say that the majority are ok and the system is great........does that help the owner with the now unpapered dog because their breeder has disappeared???. Trust systems have their weaknesses and if a breeder couldn't supply my papers when collecting the puppy, I would want some form of guarentee that I will definitely get them.

To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers

[Ozstar]

To assume that getting papers with the puppy doesn't happen and it's all too hard...........I have just collected a puppy 6 weeks ago with the papers, it does and can happen if the breeder tries an bit harder to satisfy their customers

I don't breed to satisfy other people, I breed for myself. If there is any pups left after making my choice then they are placed up for sale.

I have more people wanting my pups they I will ever have to fill them.

If you don't like the way I do things then don't buy from me...simple. I am not going to change my ways.

The guy in question in this thread obviously didn't choose a good breeder, not my fault but his.

Leanne

[Dracdog]

But on the other subject, puppies are registered into the name of the breeder first in Tasmania as well. The breeder then signs them and gives/forwards to the purchaser for re-registration in whichever State that they reside in.

Why on earth should I go to the hassle of registering the ENTIRE litter on Limited Registration, then have to write letters and actually apply to have my OWN puppies upgraded to Main Registration at a later date when I can simply hold off on registering the puppies until I decide and then register them all at the one time on whichever register I deem them to be?

Besides, under the rules of the ANKC, a breeder has up to 18 months in which to initially register a litter anyway so a breeder is NOT breaking any rules by not handing over registration papers at the time of sale. The ruling is, I believe, that the registration papers should be handed over within 14 days of registration OR sale whichever is first.

In Qld you can register the pups straight into the new owners names saving yourself a transfer fee. For pups that are already registered it is the breeders/current owners responsibility to ensure the transfer is done.

[Aziah]

I got my pups papers the day we collected him, he is on the limited register. If a breeder wants to they can then upgrade the dog to the main register.

Exactly Papers are better in the hand than chasing a breeder who's phone is disconnected ;)

I agree and from his papers we can see who his parents are and that they have been hip scored etc, if you are not given those papers you have no proof of who the parents are etc. Personally i would not leave with the puppy if I didnt have the papers.

A GOOD breeder will have already given you a pedigree in lieu of the outstanding registration papers with a promise to forward the papers when they arrived from the controlling body. In addition, you would have had copies of parents hip scores and health testing ALREADY in a folder or booklet and THESE would have been given to a purchaser at the time the puppy left home.

For example. My litter of 9 Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies started leaving home at the age of 10 weeks. Their registration papers were not back from the Tas Canine Association BUT they left home with a 50 page folder full of dietary information, a TEN generation pedigree, photocopies of their parents health tests, their microchipping paperwork and assorted other information. Their papers were forwarded as soon as they arrived back.

Does that make me a bad breeder? Or somebody who is deliberately withholding papers or do I hang onto the puppies until 13/14/15 weeks of age and THEN let them go to their new homes with their pedigree papers which are apparently THE most important thing about the puppy? I think not. Because if I hang onto my puppies for that long, the next thing you'll read is the new owner coming onto DOL (or similar forums) with behavioural problems because their puppy is no longer a malleable baby and they are having trouble trying to settle it into its new home.

Damned if you do or damned if you don't.

How long does it take for the papers to come back???. My puppy was registered on the 31st of March with Dogsvic and the papers were back by the 14th of April when collecting the puppy. That's 14 days on the outside, but you can't get it done in 10 weeks

I chose NOT to get it done in 10 weeks. I register everything except what I keep for myself on Limited Registration. They are my puppies and I choose what I keep first. I am in no particular hurry to get it done and as I have already said, ANKC rules say that it can be done up to 18 months of age. Either a puppy purchaser trusts me, or they go somewhere else. Simple as that.

Editing to add: And once again, as I have said from a previous thread. If you insist upon just selecting bits and pieces from people's responses, then please do them the courtesy of doing so in context rather than just selecting ONE sentence that appeals to you and ignoring the relevant information from around it.

You are being deliberately obtuse and it is very little wonder that your responses receive very little respect from other posters.

So basically you are saying Ellz, to hell with the prospective buyers feelings on the matter it's your way or no way???.

Don't you think that is rather an arrogant attitude to have towards your customers???. :D

Correct, they are MY puppies, I brought them into this world, I raised them and if you don't like my terms...walk!

Edited May 27, 2010 by Aziah

[ellz]

So basically you are saying Ellz, to hell with the prospective buyers feelings on the matter it's your way or no way???.

Don't you think that is rather an arrogant attitude to have towards your customers???.

I breed for me not for other people. If people want one of MY puppies, they do it MY way...it sure as heck ain't Burger King.

I have the runs on the board and I am perfectly entitled to be arrogant. If buyers don't like it, they don't deal with me. Simple as that.

I spend a lot of time screening and liasing with my puppy people prior to the sale of a puppy. Anybody purchasing a puppy from me is WELL aware of how things will work, not least because I use a written agreement which covers both parties AND the puppy and this also includes information about how the transaction will work (and cover all parties) if the papers are not yet back from the canine registering body. Nobody purchasing a puppy from me is left in the dark, no matter how old the puppy may be or what register it is placed on because they will have been told verbally AND via written means how the transaction will work.

[whippets]

BB views buying a dog the same way he/she views buying a car or refridgerator. No point reasoning with people like that. I am not interested in people who view dogs in this regard. I doubt many here would even let you have a puppy from them the way you carry on.

There are plenty in my breed who churn out the litters, sell them all on mains register and charge a fortune. So YAY for you for getting your papers and on mains . Maybe your friend up the road wants to use your dog. You have no idea of it's quality and you have no idea of your own dogs quality, Your not a breeder and you don't show, but it must be good because it's on mains register right? you will get a couple hundred bucks or a couple slabs of beer for the stud fee. Not bad for buying a pet with mains register huh?

Why do you even come on here BB? you don't breed, you havn't owned many dogs yet you know it all. You have all the answers and the people that have bred dogs for decades obviously know nothing. You don't get the fact that the breeders on here don't breed dogs as a business. We are not here for "the consumer". We don't have end of year sales or discounts for cash. We breed for ourselves when we want a show dog and provide happy healthy pet pups for grateful people who want a puppy of their chosen breed.

type....edit...delete...type...edit...delete :D I'm outy on this thread to. I don't suffer fools gladly

Edited May 27, 2010 by whippets