espinay2 Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 (edited) To summarise: Being a "puppy mill" while morally abhorrent to most, is not illegal nor a welfare issue in and of itself. The way to fight the existence of puppy mills is not through constant reporting to the RSPCA purely on the ground that they are or could be one. If there is a VERIFIABLE welfare issue involved, then that can be reported. Having messy yard or placing an advertising sign at the front of the property does not constitute a verifiable welfare issue, nor does it necessarily mean the property houses a puppy mill. Reporting for reasons other than a verifiable welfare issue, particularly if reporting more than once with no evidence, can constitute harrasment and may be considered a vexatious act. Reporting in the absence of a verifiable welfare issue does not do anyone any favours, least of all dogs in need. If people want to fight puppy mills in general, there are other ways to go about it. Reporting them to the RSPCA because 'they look like a puppy mill' is definitely not the way to do it as in the absence of a VERIFIABLE WELFARE ISSUE the RSPCA can legally not do anything. I would also caution people to be careful about witch hunts without knowing all facts. Simply driving by is not a way to get all the facts. We don't want to get to a situation (though in some cases unfortunately we may already be there) where owning multiple dogs and/or having a messy yard is a 'reportable crime' or 'morally reprehensible' even if they are doing everything else right (but I drove by their house and that is what I saw......). Yes, fight against puppy mills, but be careful how far the lines are blurred as it may be the responsible breeders on the chopping block too when the blood gets in the eyes of the mob. Edited October 30, 2010 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosepup Posted October 29, 2010 Share Posted October 29, 2010 Well summarised espinay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moselle Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Maybe the women folk are too busy shooting and skinning rabbits and possums to take down the sign? AWWWW you are funny, arent you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moselle Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 The OP said Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner. Surely no proper breeder would have constantly changing breeds !!!!!! That is what clearly points to puppy-mill MY point exactly, sparkycat. I am apalled that some posters here are of the opinion that it is "vexatious" to report a puppy miller, I would have thought that breeders...esp from this forum would have been up in arms about puppy farmers but instead all kinds of excuses are being entered into as a means to defend them, go figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 (edited) The OP said Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner. Surely no proper breeder would have constantly changing breeds !!!!!! That is what clearly points to puppy-mill MY point exactly, sparkycat. I am apalled that some posters here are of the opinion that it is "vexatious" to report a puppy miller, I would have thought that breeders...esp from this forum would have been up in arms about puppy farmers but instead all kinds of excuses are being entered into as a means to defend them, go figure you are not looking at how IT IS. yes its been said for decades puppy farmers are evil, must be eliminated. she is being a good girl, she has reacted like programmed. but? so far it is not illegal to breed, it wont be long before it is though. and reporting to the rspca to "eliminate" has also been going on for decades. that doesnt make it right to use them to destroy the lives of someone you either never met. or have decided u dont like but thats what IT IS. they might be all she thinks they are, BUT they might also not be. but it is now evil to breed unless you intend to keep the pups, even more evil to breed many breeds, even more evil it thats possible to cross breeds.nn the show fraternity are forgetting there are those who firmly believe its evil to breed for wins regardless of health issues. n so the witch hunt widens and who will be left? since so many have so many different perceptions, the answer looks like being, not many n since welfare groups dont breed, wonder where the future pet is going to come from? clones? Edited October 31, 2010 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 The OP said Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner. Surely no proper breeder would have constantly changing breeds !!!!!! That is what clearly points to puppy-mill MY point exactly, sparkycat. I am apalled that some posters here are of the opinion that it is "vexatious" to report a puppy miller, I would have thought that breeders...esp from this forum would have been up in arms about puppy farmers but instead all kinds of excuses are being entered into as a means to defend them, go figure Report for what???? What do you people want acted upon?? It is not ILLEGAL, for someone to act there has to be something wrong. No one is defending puppy farmers, but authorities can only act if there is something illegal happening, there is NOTHING illegal about breeding even in large numbers. Come up with proof of cruelty or breaking of laws and bylaws and then someone can act upon it, but you can not report something simply because you disagree with it. Unless you have something for authorities to act on you simply come across as a raving nutter. Find something illegal, find something that breaks bylaws then go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Puppy farms, while not nice, are NOT illegal. Having multiple breeds of dog, whilst not acceptable to some, is NOT illegal. Making continued complaints about a person's private business, without absolute PROOF, IS vexatious. If the OP has seen, with their OWN eyes, and not ASSUMED from what they care to IMAGINE, that conditions behind the fence are not suitable for animals then by all means complain. Having a "trailer-trash" yard visible from the road is NOT illegal, UNLESS it contravenes local council by-laws and in that case, it is up to the council to pursue NOT the RSPCA. How much more clearly does it have to be spelt out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moselle Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 The OP said Every two weeks for the past four years I've driven past this huge trailer-trash looking property, and they've had a big sign {like a church sign or roadworks sign} at the gate advertising a different breed of puppy and kitten every month or sooner. Surely no proper breeder would have constantly changing breeds !!!!!! That is what clearly points to puppy-mill MY point exactly, sparkycat. I am apalled that some posters here are of the opinion that it is "vexatious" to report a puppy miller, I would have thought that breeders...esp from this forum would have been up in arms about puppy farmers but instead all kinds of excuses are being entered into as a means to defend them, go figure you are not looking at how IT IS. yes its been said for decades puppy farmers are evil, must be eliminated. she is being a good girl, she has reacted like programmed. but? so far it is not illegal to breed, it wont be long before it is though. and reporting to the rspca to "eliminate" has also been going on for decades. that doesnt make it right to use them to destroy the lives of someone you either never met. or have decided u dont like but thats what IT IS. they might be all she thinks they are, BUT they might also not be. but it is now evil to breed unless you intend to keep the pups, even more evil to breed many breeds, even more evil it thats possible to cross breeds.nn the show fraternity are forgetting there are those who firmly believe its evil to breed for wins regardless of health issues. n so the witch hunt widens and who will be left? since so many have so many different perceptions, the answer looks like being, not many n since welfare groups dont breed, wonder where the future pet is going to come from? clones? You have raised some very interesting points, asal...and I do agree with just about everything you said. I am NOT in agreeance with the RSPCA being given any more powers, the idea of it is frightening. I have long wanted puppy millers to be a thing of the past but of course things have to get out of hand and now every breeder stands the chance of being scrutinised and that is tragic. Have any of you realised that you may have contributed to the RSPCA wanting to take this stance? I have been reading DOL for years....and for years DOLers have been whinning and whinging about puppy farmers and pet shops (rightfully so)....and the number of dogs ending up in shelters and being put down due to shortage of homes....it seems that those prayers have been answered...unfortuntely things are getting wayyy too out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosepup Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Don't know why we're all repeating ourselves but anyway... Moselle, are you happy for the RSPCA to waste time and resources visiting this property repeatedly (based on them being reported) when it's entirely possible that while they are breeding in large numbers the animals are well fed, sheltered, treated and loved? No one KNOWS what is going on at the property because NO ONE here has physically been there (driving past doesn't count). The fact that nothing has happened means that if the RSPCA has visited they have not found anything to cause concern. I would rather the RSPCA spent time on ACTUAL cruelty cases. Why don't you go out there and pretend you're a prospective puppy buyer and THEN report it if you see anything untoward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I am apalled that some posters here are of the opinion that it is "vexatious" to report a puppy miller, It's not vexatious to report a puppy farmer. It's vexatious to report every three months for years without having stepped on the property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moselle Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Don't know why we're all repeating ourselves but anyway... Moselle, are you happy for the RSPCA to waste time and resources visiting this property repeatedly (based on them being reported) when it's entirely possible that while they are breeding in large numbers the animals are well fed, sheltered, treated and loved? No one KNOWS what is going on at the property because NO ONE here has physically been there (driving past doesn't count). The fact that nothing has happened means that if the RSPCA has visited they have not found anything to cause concern. I would rather the RSPCA spent time on ACTUAL cruelty cases. Why don't you go out there and pretend you're a prospective puppy buyer and THEN report it if you see anything untoward? I did say that if I had driven by such a property I would have stopped to have a look to ensure that they did deserve reporting. There may be a slim posibility that those dogs are well fed, sheltered, treated and loved but then again....? Personally I would not be ringing the rspca repeatedly but it appears that the poster did so because she was with the understanding that the rspca would have gotten back to her which they did not. I bet that if they did get back to her the poster would not have continued to ring them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katdogs Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 I hope somebody is checking the state of the lightswitches at this place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Some registered, ethical breeders have more than 1 breed. For all we know, this person might actually be a registered breeder who takes great care of their dogs, shows, health tests etc, but just has a sign out front to advertise their puppies. I'm not sure why there's only a 'slim chance' their dogs are well looked after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Some registered, ethical breeders have more than 1 breed. For all we know, this person might actually be a registered breeder who takes great care of their dogs, shows, health tests etc, but just has a sign out front to advertise their puppies. I'm not sure why there's only a 'slim chance' their dogs are well looked after. The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!! ;) What's your address, ellz. I'll report you every three days so I can become a vexatious complainant as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 The assumptions are absolutely astounding me! I'm planning a litter of Stafford puppies.....I might just put a sign up outside my property. Then with my obvious trailer-trash, overgrown, weedy appearing property, I too can be reported to the RSPCA!!! ;) What's your address, ellz. I'll report you every three days so I can become a vexatious complainant as well Will PM it to you raz. It's all in the name of closing down puppy mills after all so is therefore considered a public service. But could you let me know when you report me so that I can be sure to kick Roger off the bed well in advance of the inspection so that he looks particularly disgruntled !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 But could you let me know when you report me so that I can be sure to kick Roger off the bed well in advance of the inspection so that he looks particularly disgruntled !! Make sure he looks muddy, will you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 But could you let me know when you report me so that I can be sure to kick Roger off the bed well in advance of the inspection so that he looks particularly disgruntled !! Make sure he looks muddy, will you! I could do that. And if I have at least a year's notice I could probably slim him down a tad too! Oh and don't forget my horses....the redhead is too fat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Oh and don't forget my horses....the redhead is too fat. The redhead is gorgeous but yes, he does have a fat ass. Bad bad ellz!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 31, 2010 Share Posted October 31, 2010 Oh and don't forget my horses....the redhead is too fat. The redhead is gorgeous but yes, he does have a fat ass. Bad bad ellz!!! *sigh* He's the one person on earth I can stand next to and have my ass look smaller and now I've got to make him lose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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