Leaning Back On The Stack

[Alyosha]

My pup is a leaner-backer. He is driving me nuts.

Anyone have any good tips for getting dogs up on their fronts? He will lean up for bait, a little, but then rocks his weight back and forth onto his rear legs and tries to twist his head sideways to eat. If he doesn't get the bait straight away he hangs his head which is worse! Mine have all done it a little as pups, but not with such determined-ness!

And he weighs about 30kg so nothing with lifting or tables will help! Practice, practice, practice has only got us so far, I'm hoping there's some small thing we can do to get past the last of the teepee stage!

He will free stand when beautifully when playing etc in the yard, so he's not having a physical problem. Plus he is very happy when show training, especially moving, just a stubborn bugger. Once I try and re-arrange a leg he shifts his weight onto his hindquarter and plants it - not budging it back forward for anything!

Edited January 28, 2011 by Alyosha

[cowanbree]

Two ways to do it. Firstly push him back with your hand on his chest, he will automatically resist and when you stop pushing suddenly he is leaning forward so click and treat. The other way to do it is pulling the tail backwards. Once again they will resist and pop forward over their front. Both are better trained on the table regardless of the size of the dog and then move onto the ground as otherwise he can fidget. Plenty of praise and cue words

[Alyosha]

Thanks Cowanbree. That's how I taught my older boy. But doesn't work with this one. Push his chest or pull his tail and he goes further back - he can manage almost a perfect equilateral triangle! Even if I haul him up on a table he will stand back off his front, has done since tiny. He'll nibble bait and rock back again between nibbles.

I'f I put his front feet slightly higher it will work a little, but once you bring it down gradually until nearly level back he goes again!

ETA - he doesn't move his feet at all or fidget, just leans...

Edited January 28, 2011 by Alyosha

[-Megz-]

Try stacking him back to front, so set and steady the back legs and then place the front and see if it confuses him. One of mine is dumb and I just stack her in reverse and she forgets to lean.

[Alyosha]

Will try that one Megz, there's nothing like mixing things up a little!

[Dogsfevr]

Allow him to stack,make him feel like he is in charge .

Free stack training all the way

Personally i find the tail pulling rarely works for the long haul & for many dogs they can chuck the sulks.

Personally i wouldn't push him or try & beat him because you wont,every training effort that ends in fail just reinforces the dog is doing right or that your not impressed.

If he works for food in only a short time frame then make it work.

If he likes a ball/toy etc just play fetch & train the free stack,don't make it a training sezsion but all fun .

My dogs never get trained in show routine

[becks]

What about getting him to watch bait or a toy being thrown infront of him? If you are clicker training, you can mark the moment he pulls forward and reward by releasing him to get the bait or chase the toy

[Shaar]

With mine I push forward at the withers so the chest goes forward but the neck arches back, but mine are only 5kg dogs!

You could do the trick a lot of people with tabled breeds do which is stacking on the edge of the table... only with a big dog you would just stack on the edge of a step or rig up some show stacker type devices out of wood. Once they fall backwards a few times, they don't lean anymore.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Shaar

[Bohunt]

Where are you standing when you are stacking him? Sounds like you are on the side of him - try moving in front of him for a start. I always use 2-3 types of 'exciting' bait on show days that are not what he sees at any other time. The other ideas are all good but I would try getting in front. Also, stop the continual training at home now - sounds like he has had plenty. Give him a break and try what I suggested at the next show. Keep him surprised and not knowing what is coming next - his brain knows exactly what you are doing before you do it.

Cheers

Edited January 28, 2011 by Bohunt

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Nothing helpful to add except to say that if it's not too hot and we're there tomorrow Kurgan will definitely not be the naughtiest hound!

[SparkyTansy]

I'd be freestacking him - using a clicker works really well for this.

[brightonrock]

When he's free stacking beautifully at play in the yard hang around and treat him when you see him doing what you want. That way he thinks he's training you, and so begins the fun !

Also, make sure you treat him very quickly, when you see what you want. You have about 3 seconds only. He will naturally think wow, food and start following you, so treat him when he gets that you are treating him for standing nicely, even if he is not doing a "perfect" stack. It's the idea you are treating for. Keep the sessions short but often, say, every two days. If he loves this he will free stack for you, and then it will be locked in.

Good Luck !

Edited January 29, 2011 by turkishdelight

[Alyosha]

Thanks guys.

He has been pretty good yesterday afternoon and today at a show - and he was only naughty in the challenge run off SSM - but who wouldn't be on their first day in minor and their adult buddy in front to chase!!

Showdog and Turkish I think you're both on the money, free stacking with minimum interference - of course he knows how to do it best anyway!!

I'm already up front Bohunt, nose to waist. And when I say we practice lots at home I mean whenever I walk past with a treat I slip on a lead and do one stack - no long training sessions around here! No good with sighthounds, it interrupts their important snoozing sessions.

And Shaar, I've tried on blocks, but he doesn't move his feet so isn't concerned! He doesn't even wobble! Cheeky bugger. But I will try a gentle press on the wither - you never know!