A Nature Or Nurture Question

[Cosmolo]

I am not seeking a definitive answer to this but rather, very interested in all the different perspectives- I am using my dogs as an example but i am sure there are others that are similar. I don't have any definitive thoughts on this, but it is something i have pondered recently.

I have 4 dogs that have been raised by myself and or OH since they were young puppies- all varying breeds and backgrounds. We have one other dog who was an adult rescue.

During puppyhood, the dogs were all socialised with other dogs but were not exposed to other dogs that had overtly rude body language or rough playing styles.

Now as adults- ALL 4 will appropriately correct rude or rough dogs to varying degrees if we don't intervene (we do intervene 95% of the time) The one dog we did not have as a puppy will not correct any dog no matter what the situation.

So the question is- Is the lack of exposure to rude/ rough dogs created the lower level of tolerance to such behaviour and body language. OR did myself and OH naturally choose puppies with the same personality type- assertive, bold etc. OR a combination of the two.

Does socialising a dog with rough/ rude dogs as a puppy (where they do NOT become frightened or injured) increase their level of tolerance as an adult? Does neutralisation to varying degrees decrease a dogs tolerance for rough/ rude dogs?

[JulesP]

I think it is nature. I have raised all my border collies the same pretty much. Croydon's pre-puppy at 8 weeks, Croydon's obedience program from then on. The dogs have had various tolerance levels. Both boys have been pretty tolerant. Brock is super tolerant, a dog can bite him and he just looks sad. Fern was in the middle. Poppy is super sharp and tolerates no crap, nothing happened to her nuture wise to make her like this. Amber will tell some dogs off.

Edited March 3, 2011 by JulesP

[Cosmolo]

Dam it Jules, i wanted to see what you had said!

[JulesP]

Dam it Jules, i wanted to see what you had said!

Lol have changed it to a real reply now so you didn't feel ripped off!

[Nekhbet]

I think dogs with a lower tolerance is more normal then those who stand there and get bashed up by other dogs. Some people are just too unrealistic about what a dog should tolerate. If any dog comes up to my bitch her first reaction is to flatten them to prove she's the grand poobah, then she's happy for the rest of the day. My other dogs will too accept behaviour up to a point before telling off others.

Remember dogs will learn off each others as well

[JulesP]

I have been a heaps happier handler since I decided that my dogs didn't have to tolerate fluffy pouncing on them. If people whinge now if Poppy snaps at their dog I just say 'well your dog was being rude'.

Nekhbet I actually only took Amber out to socialize with my tolerant dog (Brock) rather than with miss bossy boots Poppy to make sure that Poppy didn't teach Amber to be bossy. Amber so far will only tell really rude dogs off.

[Cosmolo]

Yes thats another point too- the learning from each other. But one of the bitches was raised pretty separately from the older bitch who was raised with another dog (also assertive and a bit dominant with others himself) who has since passed away. The 2 younger boys were raised with both older bitches. None were socialised with strange dogs with each other during their critical periods.

You're so right Jules- i am also alot happier since accepting that Cosmo does not have to put up with rudeness. When she was younger i wanted the 'friends with everyone no matter what' attitude- i now believe that was pretty unreasonable.

[corvus]

I would say a mixture, as always. My boys have both been exposed to plenty of rude dogs where they have not become frightened or injured and both handle it very, very well. They are very different dogs. Kivi never corrects rude behaviour. He just deals with it and most of the time will go back for another try if things don't go so well. He has the tolerance of a saint.

Erik is not socially mature yet, but while he will tolerate and easily avoid a lot of rude behaviour, he really hates dogs that bite or buffet his face in play. He won't correct them. He just keeps telling them he doesn't like it, louder every time. Perhaps Erik will come to correct dogs, but I'd rather he didn't and am managing the situation to try to avoid that from happening. I honour avoidance behaviour. If he's trying to avoid the dog we do everything in our power to allow him to avoid them, and reward him for doing so. He's not a dog I ever want taking the law into his own paws. He forms habits too readily. I am not sure if he will start skipping the avoidance behaviour as he grows older, but for now I'm glad he tries that first.

[Ons]

I have the opposite to you in my pack

I have four dogs but I won't use my fourth as an example as she is only 4 months old

the other 3 dogs - 2 golden retreivers had since 8 weeks old and I would consider well socialised as pups although not until adulthood did they live for a few months and since then on and off for a few days with a large number of dogs, my rescue dog, a coolie since he was about 6 to 12 months old. My rescue is not tolerate at all of dogs that are rude to him or in his face whilst the other two are very tolerant to the degree, especially the female, of being very submissive.

I honestly think that it is the nature of the dog as well as to a degree the breed of the dog

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I've had my dog since puppy 10 weeks.

She would always roll over for any other dogs including much younger shorter dogs.

But lately she's also started standing up for herself and telling off rude dogs.

Ie she was crawling in for a greeting when the Rotti she was approaching jumped on her, mine rolled over. Rotti growled at her. Mine prompty sat up and told the Rotti off for being rude - as best I can tell. And the Rotti backed off - no harm done. Phew.

She's now 2.5 years old and she is standing up for herself more than she ever used to so I think it has to do with growing up. She has the most acute sense of doggy ettiquette I've ever seen, and is a master of the "non threatening friendly" greeting, but she is becoming less tolerant of rude dogs. Although she will tolerate puppies jumping all over her, just gets up and walks away if it gets too much.

[BMAK]

my dog will put puppies in there place before they even start to get near her but as soon as a dominant dog comes along whether big or small she is the first to drop or back off.

she is normally very accepting of other dogs and will mostly ignore then when she is focusing on something but other wise she would rather fall behind and follow the rest of the pack.

i would like her to be more accepting of puppies getting close to her though, so win loose situation for me.

Edited March 4, 2011 by catherine.b

[Kelpie-i]

I would say it's an undefined mixture of both. The ability to tolerate high levels of agitation is genetic whilst threshold levels, i believe, are the result of various experiences

[m-j]

A quick answer.....

From watching the many packs of dogs (generally littermates) at work that have all been raised the same way with each other, I would say nature plays a huge part in how dogs tolerate rude or otherwise dogs (non pack members), but experience certainly also has some bearing on their reactions to certain behaviour from other dogs. A dog having a "win" that previously wasn't confident in a situation can certainly "change" that dog in that situation, as can getting a fright.

Edited March 9, 2011 by m-j

[wuffles]

I have no idea

I think my boy is really interesting when it comes to this. He's 6 years old, we got him as a 3 year old rescue. He is quite dominant. We go to dog parks so he has been exposed (since we got him) to quite a few rude dogs. Until we got our younger girl, we had never witnessed him telling a dog off. He will tolerate the most annoying and rude behaviour from any dog but does try to diffuse the situation. If he gets humped he will often turn around and try to engage more appropriate play by play bowing. He just gets up and leaves if another dog is annoying him and they generally give up pretty quickly.

Despite this, he has been wonderful at giving our girl the corrections she needed once she lost her puppy license. He is very tolerant but will give her small warnings if she's too boisterous. He will also give larger, firm corrections if she doesn't heed his warnings -- for example lip raise warning, then growl warning, then a roar and pin, I mean business! So he obviously knows how to do it, and how to be effective, but doesn't use it on dogs outside his pack. I have no idea why

The only time I've ever witnessed him correct a dog other than Ava was with another known dog in our neighbourhood. He was running and the other dog bit him on the bum - he turned around and roared - the other dog slunk away and didn't try it again

[dee lee]

When I first adopted Honey at 2.5, she was fairly socially inept but generally good natured. She wasn't interested in other dogs at all and looked quite bothered if any approached her. I don't think she even knew how to play. She would strongly correct any rude dogs that got in her face with a gruff growl and possible air snap if they ignored that. Most puppies got this for even sniffing at her.

18 months down the track with a lot of low stress socialisation under her belt (ie being around other dogs but not being forced into close contact), I barely see this behaviour any longer! She is much more tolerant of puppies now and on occasion even plays with other dogs briefly.

I assume that she was able to learn, after many positive experiences, that she did not need to be so defensive.

Of course, I have had a much different experience in the past, so I'm inclined to think that nature can be a big contributor. ie, that by temperament Honey is more inclined to be tolerant and that previously her experiences had led to her needing to use corrections to avoid further conflict.

Edited March 14, 2011 by dee lee

[Agility Dogs]

I have two adult dogs who have been brought up in a reasonably similar manner.

The girl is super tolerant, but once she has had enough she will tell another dog off.

The boy is not at all tolerant - he will belt another dog for what he sees as a trangression of his rights. (Unless I tell him not too.)

As others have said, I'm far happier as a handler (and so is my boy) now that I have come to the conclusion that if another dog is rude to him he doesn't have to grin an bear it.

The only down side to this (and why I try an avoid situations where he is on the receiving end) is that at some point he might come across a dog that doesn't appreciate his point of view and wants to make a point of it.

[newfsie]

I also have four dogs, two from puppy and two rescues, of which one, Annabelle, was a people/dog aggressive dog. She (3.5) we really worked at from 14 months to make her more social. But i would never expect her to have to tolerate rude dogs. And she is now really easy going with other dogs, even some friendly rude dogs, she just won't tolerate aggressive dogs, so I keep a close eye on her always.

My newfie pup, Katy(1.5) I worked hard at socialising from eight weeks on, because I want her to be a therapy dog. But again I would not put her near aggressive dogs or the super rude as a pup. But every friendly dog i could find we would let her meet and even some even tempered dogs. Now she has become the friendliest dog I know. And she is very happy and tolerant of rude young dogs at our Beginner class, where i use her as a Demo dog. But I do not expect her to have to be put in front of an aggressive dog. She is however very polite. Always lowers her head, ears back and definitely puts on a soft friendly face. This way she has been accepted by dogs ( the older bitches mostly, who hate rude dogs) at our Kennel Club, who on average we know are not very social and friendly with a lot of dogs, but good with her.

Tessa (4), our Golden retriever cross border collie on the other hand was a rescue as a five week old pup ( missed some of her critical period with her litter mates). We also socialised her a lot, but she has never been super friendly. She is good with polite dogs and very tolerant of young puppies. But she has no time for rude adolescents. On leash with us she is perfect. But quite snappy, (never full fight) at any bossy/rude dogs. Totally different, but easy to be around with other dogs, just not friendly.

Now Lukey (3.5) our new Newfie Rescue, is a very timid, to men, sweet boy, who even though a full male an very soft and polite dog. All other dogs seem to like him. he did not lead a good life previously and we have no idea at his training. But he is good with other dogs, even the young unruly ones. He seems to like happy forward dogs. Of course we avoid aggressive dogs.

But I also wonder if it could be breed orientated too. Not really wanting to say which or what breeds are friendlier or not, but just noticing at our Kennel Club that there seem to be some differences.