Dominant Dogs

[Jeff Jones]

Before I got my Lappie I wanted an Akita. I heard they were a dominant breed and you couldn't ever relax the rules for them. I wasn't sure if I could cope with this. I met a few and they struck me as very self-contained and confident. This didn't really match my idea of dominance.

What is/was you're idea of a dominant dog and how it acts?

[JoeK]

A dominant dog from my experience with the working Shepherd, is like an outlaw dog, he like to do things his way when he wants and when you try to dominate him to do want you want, he argue and voice he has disaproval. Hes confident cocky dog, high tail, tall neck in the body language, good nerve no scared but he love himself and thinks to himself he is the best and the world is for hes benifit.

He has attitude like smarty pants, yes, you want me to do something, make me he thinks becuase I am the boss, and he bluff with a growl and warn you mess with me and I bite you, like that. The dominant dog is not snappy aggressive, if things goes his way, hes good dog no worries, if you want him to go to the crate and he doesnt want to go and you try and push him in the crate, he growl and tell you he getting pissed off and he may have to bite you. The Dominant dog has a wide window from when he first growl to when he may bite and he winds up like a lion before he bite, sometimes he air snap, not defense aggressive different thing.

You train the dominant dog with the brain not the boot and outsmart their thinking and never back away from intimidation. They are bit of pain too dominant in the training because they challenge you too often, little bit just confident dominance is good, much dominance is not helpful to the training, slows down the progress, best is average dominance in the dog, too much is not useful trait for the training.

Joe

I agree with most of you're post JoeK. The only thing is you state the dominant dogs you have dealt with have a wide window when they first growl to when they may bite and air snapping. I have not found any of the dogs I would classify as dominant to complete air snapping and they are quick to engage. This does not mean they are unpredictable, it is fairly easy to predict when a dominant dog is going to engage.

I will agree with you're comment on training dominant dogs. If you are silly enough to fight dominance with dominance you better be prepared to be seriously hurt in the process...

Hello Mr Jeff, good to hear from you.

Some dogs I find the waters muddy between the purely dominant trait and the combination with the civil drive when the dog he bites in panic when you push him. Like you push him into the crate and he swing around and bite you in defence is very fast to engage like the Malinios, no clarity in the head like the German Shepherd, just my opinion on the Malinios reaction, you blink, he got you chomp!!.

But, the pure dominance in the German Shepherd I find is not snap on panic because you push him in the crate, he says you bugger (excusing my french), I am not wanting to go in there in the crate and if you keep on push me in, he growl and telling you stop push me in there or I will bite you, yes. The growl begins like pussy cat purring and winds up, maybe a few seconds before he engage. He also in the purely dominance stop fast the growl if you take away your hands of him. Hes not working in defence like he needs to kill you, he just wants to win the argument, you back off hes happy again. Is hard to explain in the writing here for me, but dominance and defense is different in my learning on the reaction, but is similar and easy mistaken on the trait.

I warn my friend Mr Jeff, do not fit the prong collar to that dog once to treat dominance, he says I show him who's boss, I tell him that dog will show you and he did 34 stiches in his leg from the prong correction on a dominant dog, must train the dominant dog with your head and outsmart him, he work for you no worries.

Joe

Yes, the air snapping, maybe, I pull away my hand fast enough and he miss the bite on me?

Edited March 14, 2011 by JoeK

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I would like to know what exactly people mean by a "dominant" dog? How do they behave?

At the risk of being anthro, like many dominant humans. And there is a difference between the quietly confident and those with issues. I think there are many varieties of dominant dog.

Also, the peacekeeper is not always the alpha. Our younger Afghan is the peacekeeper. He sees when the girls are getting toey with each other or the pups are annoying the older dogs and he breaks it up by sauntering in the middle of it, or just generally giving off a relaxed aura of "what's the fuss?". He's also one of our most stubborn dogs physically, he's a real space taker, but at the same time very smart about space.

Dominant should not be used as shorthand for "poorly trained" but unfortunately it often is.

[sas]

Different takes on it, so many times people use the term Dominant as a bad thing. My old girl could keep a new foster dog out of the lounge room with just one look, never resorted to physical assaults....you could call that dominant.

I have a boy who will try to dominate other dogs with his body but will launch a physical assault more often that not, with people he asks if the same rules apply everyday...you could call that dominant.

Edited March 14, 2011 by MEH

[newfsie]

Interesting thoughts, everyone.

Before I got my Lappie I wanted an Akita. I heard they were a dominant breed and you couldn't ever relax the rules for them. I wasn't sure if I could cope with this. I met a few and they struck me as very self-contained and confident. This didn't really match my idea of dominance.

Years later, I find myself with a little dog that is very proactive, opportunistic, and impulsive. He is very reward-oriented and very switched on. Nothing escapes his scrutiny and everything is experimented with in case he can exploit it. Rules generally do not get relaxed for him as he certainly does take advantage of it. We have learnt to be mindful of what he is doing and give him lots of direction.

This dog is not, IMO, dominant. Ultimately, he does what is rewarding, and he's very good at getting the most out of everything in his environment, including people and other dogs. I really love his temperament. He's a handful and has changed the way I train and manage my dogs, but he is also just so fun in so many ways. I love that he keeps me on my toes and thinking several steps ahead. His enthusiasm is such that you have to think several steps ahead to have any hope of living in harmony with him. But I think that maybe some would call him dominant. One day, I'm going to want another dog like him. I want to know what to ask for.

One of my friends has a Valhund....it always amazes me how tough he behaves and how strong minded/willed he is. Until, he is off leash with my dogs. I think he hates the fact they are so big and ignore him. he is also very food orientated. Great little tracking dog and very good at obedience when he want to be, but if he is in one of his "moods", he does his own thing

[Odin-Genie]

I'm not into pack leader or being dominant over my dog... but this is my take.

There is the dog that all the other dogs defer to. The one that can break up any fight play or serious, just by growling a bit and running between the fighters, forcing them apart. All the dogs defer to this dog, they give him space and don't argue with him for resources. At the same time, he doesn't boss the other dogs around at all. He only asserts himself when he considers it absolutely necessary. The one at our local park is a 13 YO GSD. I've also heard this kind of dog called a "peacemaker" or "peacekeeper".

And then there is the dog that their humans call "dominant" but I would call obnoxious, untrained and feral. This is the one that has had no limits or boundaries set on its behaviour since early puppihood. It fights everybody dog and human for resources, food / friends / toys / position etc. It may be a really enthusiastic humper and doesn't stop when the "owner" tells it. It is constantly picking fights with all the other dogs at the park. And is generally no fun to be around for anybody. The owner usually blames it on it being "a dominant dog".

See i see the first as being the alpha or pack leader. i agree they are a peacekeeper but not really a 'dominant' personality. The 'dominant' dog is usually not a pack leader.

I personally think you'll have some submissive personalities and some dominant personalities and varying degrees in a litter. I think dominance isn't created through lack of training but is more likely made much worse through lack of training and poor owner responsibility. I don't have much experience but i see dominant nature as something you handle not necessarily cure but would be interested to know others views on handling the dominant nature.

The 'peacekeeper' sounds like my elkhound. He is extremely gentle with older dogs and small dogs and tends to leave other dogs alone. But most dogs defer to him, including dogs twice his size. He would never be aggressive though he sometimes tells off extremely boistrous puppies. However, he wouldn't back off if a dog tried to dominate him. But he has no interest in bossing other dogs and never humps other dogs.

[corvus]

Before I got my Lappie I wanted an Akita. I heard they were a dominant breed and you couldn't ever relax the rules for them. I wasn't sure if I could cope with this. I met a few and they struck me as very self-contained and confident. This didn't really match my idea of dominance.

What is/was you're idea of a dominant dog and how it acts?

Back then I thought a dominant dog was one that was constantly challenging their owners. In a dog the size of an Akita, a bit of a scary thought. But when I met some Akitas I saw that they were very grounded, confident dogs. They don't put up with things, but that doesn't mean they don't ever listen to you or that they won't be content unless they are getting what they want. They just need reasons to co operate sometimes. My spitz breeds are both the same. The Lappie especially, and he is super mellow and gentle.

Now I have a lot of academic definitions of dominance and don't really use the word to describe a personality. Some academics don't really believe it exists in dogs at all, and have compelling reasons for that. Others don't question it and have based entire experiments on the assumption it not only exists, but that their interpretation of it is valid. I guess I sit in the middle somewhere. I know another little dog that has systematically taught every dog that has ever lived in his house with him that if he wants something he will always fight for it until he gets it. To me, he plays a game no other dog in the house does. It is almost as though he defends his right to resources as a concept rather than a specific thing he desires at any one moment. He is always fully committed. He doesn't say "I want that" unless he's prepared to fight for it. Dogs learn not to cross him if they don't want a fight. Most dogs don't want a fight, even if they could beat him easily enough. Sometimes he makes a point and starts something over a small thing that doesn't matter much. Whatever he's doing, it looks a lot like establishing rank to me. Just that he's the only dog in the household that's doing it.

When Erik was 6 months old he went to stay with my parents and the first thing he did was work out who controlled all the important things like food and doors and then try to force them to stay with him at all times. I was impressed with that. I don't think many dogs are capable of thinking like that in the first place.

[corvus]

One of my friends has a Valhund....it always amazes me how tough he behaves and how strong minded/willed he is. Until, he is off leash with my dogs.

Erik is used to being smaller than everyone else. He is pretty comfortable with this role and handles big dogs well, but he really hates being excluded. Heaven forbid a dog should play with Kivi but not him at the same time. He's very outspoken, and he is very strong willed as well. JoeK pretty much described him to a T except for the fear thing. He does get frightened and easily unsettled, but he's still a youngster. He has some growing up to do yet.

[wuffles]

I call one of my dogs dominant. He sounds a bit like jacqui835's boy.

He's not aggressive at all to either dogs or people. He has NEVER been in a fight.

He has a dominant stance (stands tall, sometimes puts head over shoulders of other dogs) and he rarely shows submissive body language. Most dogs we meet naturally defer to him without making a fuss. If a dog tries to hump him, he will turn around and either leave the area or try to engage them in play. He is the dog at the dog park that wanders off to do his own thing and ends up with 5 other dogs trotting behind him following him around. He will sometimes guard resources but does not go overboard.

When we had an older female foster greyhound with us, he got taken down a notch and after an initial adjustment period he was quite happy not being the 'top dog'. He seems to enjoy the company of other 'dominant' dogs and often tries to engage them in play. However, we rarely meet another dog that challenges him.

Our other dog is seriously submissive towards him and follows him everywhere. He can stare at her from across the room and she will immediately leave the room or roll onto her back (he's not allowed to do this, but will try it occasionally). He controls all their games and although he will roll onto his back and let her climb all over him, once he says enough, the game is well and truly over. He is exceptionally tolerant of her but his tellings-off are swift, loud and effective

Human-wise, he is quite demanding and gets his way a lot of the time. He seeks out pats and takes advantage of techniques that 'work' - for example nuzzling people's hands or leaning against them. He is stubborn, independent and quite hard to train. In saying that, he is pretty easy to live with as he's low energy and happy to do his own thing.

[W Sibs]

Would you say dominant dogs equals how confident they are?

Charlie - very chill, laid back of dog who does not show any aggression at all. Confident dog who is happy doing himself. He does what he wants, when he wants. Confident in himself that he is always relax and can sleep anywhere.

Emmy - hyper, reactive, she always needs attention! Needs to be in people face. Very insecure. Funny enough, people thinks she is the dominant one.

Edited March 15, 2011 by CW EW

[newfsie]

One of my friends has a Valhund....it always amazes me how tough he behaves and how strong minded/willed he is. Until, he is off leash with my dogs.

Erik is used to being smaller than everyone else. He is pretty comfortable with this role and handles big dogs well, but he really hates being excluded. Heaven forbid a dog should play with Kivi but not him at the same time. He's very outspoken, and he is very strong willed as well. JoeK pretty much described him to a T except for the fear thing. He does get frightened and easily unsettled, but he's still a youngster. He has some growing up to do yet.

MY friends dog seems a little fearful at times..very comfortable in his own home environment with six other dogs. he tries to be in charge there

[Aidan3]

Temple Grandin has probably explained it the best I've ever seen in her recent book "Animals Make Us Human: Creating the Best Life for Animals" (2009)

[corvus]

Would you say dominant dogs equals how confident they are?

To a large extent, I think. Sometimes a Malamute called Rocky visits our park. He walks like he owns the place. He never hesitates, never looks uncertain, and largely ignores most dogs. My dogs will run to him and throw themselves on the ground in front of him to lick up at his muzzle like puppies. They act like he's a celebrity. If someone has a squeaky toy, he walks up to them and takes it. No "excuse me" or "can I please..." just takes it like it's his. I think that confidence is what my dogs are responding to when they grovel in front of him.

Kivi acts confidently submissive. A trainer once told me he was a dominant dog because wherever there was trouble between a couple of dogs, he'd be there standing over the pair and trying to calm them. That's all he does, though! Timid or anxious dogs love him. He's very steady and non-threatening. He knows who's more confident than he is.

[Jumabaar]

Dominance is not aggression. Dominance is a desire to run things. The dominant dog wants to have everything his (or her) way.

If that's right - every dog I've met including mine is dominant.

Mine has been called an "omega" dog. She crawls into every greeting and rolls over and even pees sometimes, seems very submissive. Except when she's hunting in the hedge and she's in it for herself and I have to go get her (or hide and freak her out).

She will quite happily take over leadership in any group of dogs or people or mix if nobody else steps up. She doesn't challenge though if some other dog says they want the whatever, she's very happy to hand it over. Although sometimes she insists on a game of chase-me first.

And she has displayed some peacemaker behaviours as she matures. Is fascinating to watch. And is yet another reason why I have a hard time with the conventional definitions of "dominance".

Mrs Rusty, my apology that your dog is not dominant, is disobedients you describe. Dominant in the true meaning not often come in the female dog, very rare and usually male trait yes. Dominant dog does not greet people becuase he think hes too good and he may have competition to submit, he don't like submit so he is aloof always. If the dog she roll over and pee is dead opposite of dominance in the trait. Out going excitment is not dominance in the trait, is different thing.

Joe

I don't think that you can say that it is mainly a male trait. I have met many many dominant bitches, where the boys (often entire) really don't even get a look in with the running of things.

I am thinking that dominance is a an active desire to control situations, Second to this would be the ability to confidentaly do so.

I guess this would rule out the generally confident dog who will just walk away from other dogs trying to take control so wouldn't say that dominance = confident.

[Jed]

Magnus, TBCSITW, was a dominant dog. He made the rules. All the other dogs did as he told them. He was very intelligent. The boxers, twice his size, were happy with his leadership.

He wanted to bite me when he was a juvenile - I patted him when he had a bone. Luckily (for him) he missed. We had some dialogue, and he didn't do it again.

Attacked by a big black dog on the beach, he rushed up to it, bowled it over, put his mouth on its throat, and growled. Not biting, When he judged the dog knew what was happening, he backed off, and the dog ran back to his owners as fast as he could.

He saw two dingoes in attack mode on our property, and rushed up to them, himself in attack mode.

He liked to learn new things, providing the training was good. He spent his life bending the rules as far as he could, and if caught out, simply raised a finger at me.

By the time he was 2 or 3, we had worked everything out to suit both of us. I asked him nicely, he always responded positively. I asked him, never forced him. He generally obeyed with good humour and grace.

He checked what I did very thoroughly. He saw his job as caring for my welfare.

I owned a very big Maremma x Pyrenean, which was always submissive to him, although not a submissive dog.

He was totally confident in every situation.

[Aphra]

Would you say dominant dogs equals how confident they are?

To a large extent, I think. Sometimes a Malamute called Rocky visits our park. He walks like he owns the place. He never hesitates, never looks uncertain, and largely ignores most dogs. My dogs will run to him and throw themselves on the ground in front of him to lick up at his muzzle like puppies. They act like he's a celebrity. If someone has a squeaky toy, he walks up to them and takes it. No "excuse me" or "can I please..." just takes it like it's his. I think that confidence is what my dogs are responding to when they grovel in front of him.

I've only ever had one what I'd call very dominant dog, my Mastiff X Belar (a real Mastiff X, he was 68kgs) who died last year. He was fine with other dogs because they all deferred to him, he never needed to start an argument or finish one, because other dogs just naturally deferred to him. He only asserted himself when it was something he really wanted, such as bones, otherwise he was pretty easy going. If another dog approached him and he wasn't interested conversation he'd lift on side of his lip and show the smallest amount of tooth and the other dog almost always got the message and backed away.

I think of dominance as something like the attitude of a Clint Eastwood or Gary Cooper in old Westerns; that sense of unasailable confidence which doesn't need displays of aggression or macho behaviour. Dogs which make a lot of noise and fuss with other dogs are, to my mind, unconfident and anxious, bullies rather than dominants.

With people Belar was friendly and affectionate if a bit standoffish with strangers. He was such a gentleman with people that when my vet arrived to put him to sleep after his cancer started to overwhelm him, he insisted on struggling to his feet to go and greet her.

We did have to set some rules when he was a pup and he occasionally challenged me over really precious resources. Oddly enough, even people scared of dogs loved Belar, I think his calm confidence gave them surety that he wasn't going to do something unpredictable.

[Quickasyoucan]

I think there can be degrees of dominant behaviour and I also think there can be a fluidity depending on environment. This is probably a separate thing from what working people have described as a truly dominant dog though.

A lot of bull breeds, my own stafford x included, have a degree of self confidence around other dogs which I wouldn't put down to necessarily being bossy. My dog has never shown any interest in dogs smaller than himself, at most he will give a vague wag of his tail if they approach, sometimes he will completely ignore them. Dogs the same size as himself he will mostly ignore, however if a dog is bigger or undesexed he will adopt a posture, and when younger would try and either put his head over their back or mount them (not something that I have encouraged to continue). I have never seen him submissive towards another dog off leash, though he has shown some on leash reactivity /fear after being attacked by a GSD.

However, I have seen him submissive towards a 19 year old very infirm cat . This cat never backed down the first time Jake met her as a youngster and to the end of her days even when she was so infirm she could hardly move, he was respectful and submissive around her. That cat was truly dominant.

[SilverHaze]

I have an old siberian girl who fits the bill of Mr Jeffs & JoeK's descriptions.

So very true, having to train with the brain - you will lose any other way. They just want things their way - if things are, all is good, if you try to make them do something they don't want to - prepare for the consequences.

It's a bit like the show survivor - outwit, outplay, outlast!

My girl is predictable, will always give warning, but won't back down. She isn't interested in ruling or bossing other dogs -but all other dogs respect her.

A fascinating dog to live with and understand, but i would never want another. I desexed her as if she produced just one like herself, i would feel horrible. The majority of the dogs from her line were of similar temperament.

[moosmum]

Temple Grandin has probably explained it the best I've ever seen in her recent book "Animals Make Us Human: Creating the Best Life for Animals" (2009)

Sounds like a must read to me.

I think dominance is very hard to define in dogs in any real way.There are so many other personality traits that influence how it is displayed.

To me,its a supreme confidence and courage to stand his/her ground and not give in to threat.A willingness to take or give punishment rather than than submitt to a break in his idea of how things should be. Can be very cocky and stubborn at times. The intelligence,drives,and bond with his family are all going to influence how its shown. A dog driven by a dominant nature alone ,unwilling to bow to anyone would be a feak of nature and not a viable specimen.A danger to dogs and people.

He has to be able to adapt his out look in different situations.

I saw an interesting interaction with 2 very dominant males.My Collie X (Chimo) and a G.S.D. who met for trhe 1st time when my dog turned up at a friends looking for me.Chimo, who was used to always being top dog launched himself at the G.S.D (King) and there was a brief fight that stopped as soon as both owners yelled out,but my boy had seen that he was far out classed in that time.

We went inside with both dogs and tho' Chimo was allowed in on his owners say so,King literaly put Chimo in the corner. Chimo had to keep his face in the corner the whole time we were there and if he tried to even look over his shoulder,king would stand over him and just give him the look till he put his face back in the corner.

As far as working dogs go,I was once told that its more uncommon in females,but when they have it they are great!

I have 3 (females) and they all have very different personalities.All accept me as dominant over them and learn on the principle that obedience means more freedom,experience and mental stimulation is available to them.I would not tolerate agression towards me from any of them and they know it.

A well balanced dominant nature is a great dog,with good leadership.

Edited March 15, 2011 by moosmum

[toshman]

I think the term 'dominant' is overused. A lot of so called dominant dogs are just bossy, or like to stir trouble, or are possessive about desirable things. I don't believe a lot of behaviours people often have trouble with here on the forums is truly dominant. In the time I did rescue I believe out of so many dogs in care over time (about 100?) that only one was truly dominant and he genuinely scared the shit out of me.

I agree with you, Clyde. Most of what we describe as dominant dogs are, IMHO, "wannabe" dominant! They want to climb up the scale, they want to be dominant, and they're trying their damndest to get there.

Truly dominant dogs don't have to do that kind of thing - they're already there - and they can dominate with just a look or intervene with just their presence, and they are usually calm, nice dogs.

Turid Rugaas is the best person to read about dominance in dogs. I have a reference somewhere to something she wrote about it but I'm at work and can't look it up at the moment.....