Should We Give Our Puppy Back?

[Jumblyjunior]

Hi Everyone,

My husband and I have been reading on this forum for a while now.

Here's the story.....sorry for the saga

We previously had a male lab who died 3 years ago and was a much adored dog - he died at 11 of cancer but for the last 5-6 years of his life had terrible arthritis of his hips. We had got him from a pet shop not previously ever having a dog and not really being aware of the major issues this could cause. Nevertheless we loved him and wish he was here today. Finally our whole family (extended eg grandparents,uncles) was ready for another dog and this time we did a lot of research and decided on a female lab and waited until one was available in our state.

So in Febuary we chose our female yellow lab - she is a delightful sweetie pie - full of beans and has patched a hole in many hearts. We were told by the registered breeder that her mother had 7/7 hips (which we had in writing not from her not the actual certificate - and she had said this was good at the breed standard) and her father had 1/1 hips - we were a bit cautious about the 7/7 but saw the mother who seemed well (about 5 years old) and read about hips and proceeded knowing scores are not a guarantee and there was a lot we would do with this pup being more aware in general. The elbows were 0 all around - and the history of the mum and dad was good (through my research only hole in it is the mums mum).

We have had our puppy for 5 weeks now and she is great - doing her puppy training and learning a lot of things and slept through the night this week. We are crate training her - and are very happy with this again after much research and what we feel will be great benefit to a breed such as a lab.

But we were still waiting on the copies of her parents scores and the pra certificates which the breeder had kept saying she would send - PRA was only just done on the parents and the agreement we had with her if there was a chance our dog could be affected ie both parents carriers she would take puppy back - there was a delay with this test and so there was also a delay in getting hold of the hip/elbow scores.

I was getting a bit paranoid that she was not going to send the eye results or they were bad and we were going to have to send her back.

So two nights ago I got the email - Dad correct 1/1 mum 9/10 - with 4 right subluxation.

We would not have taken/considered one of these puppies with this score - now we are in a quandry - we have a young family who wants an active happy dog - we know there is no guarantee but I feel sad and betrayed. If down the track at 7/7 we found out our dog had a hip problem we would have rolled with it and done everything we can but now I feel we if something happens its because we were tricked - what a different 2/3 makes..

We are taking her to the vet on saturday to have him just look at her and see what he thinks but she is only 13 weeks old - she does have a bit of a funny gait but nearly all labs I see have this , she does seem to move both legs together when scooting around but again lots of dogs I have seen do this and she loves to lie like a frog which our old dog never did - but on the otherhand she is active, jumps around (we discourage this) and is certainly not overweight and is only walked for less than 10 minutes every few days.

I think we have every right to give our puppy back and I think that everyone who got a puppy from this litter should be aware of the actual facts and decide on this. We don't really know what to do we have not talked to breeder yet.

But just to confuse my mind even more I thought I would ask on this forum where there are so many people who love their dogs too.

Thanks for listening....

[MolassesLass]

"We would not have taken/considered one of these puppies with this score "

That says it all for me, I think the best thing to do would be to ask the breeder to take the puppy back.

If you kept the dog and in the future anything happens to the dog joint-wise you will immediately kick yourself for not having taken the dog back when you knew you didn't want to risk a puppy like that. And I don't think feeling like that will lead to a happy and productive relationship with the breeder (which I think is important).

It will probably really hurt (esp. for you kids) to give up the puppy but better now than later.

[Sandra777]

Difficult one as even 0/0 parents can produce severely affected pups.

HD is not purely genetic, a huge part of it is in how the pup is raised.

An experienced PennHip vet can palpatate the hips at this age and gauge laxity and give you an idea of what may be ahead. If I was in your position I would seek one out, as well as researching very carefully what you need to do to raise this puppy so nothing you do contributes to whatever genetic baggage it has.

You may find it easier to return the pup, but there is no guarantee that if you buy a pup from 0/0 parents next time you're going to be any better off than you are now.

[sas]

Pinn Hip can be done early can't it i.e. on a pup?

[lappiemum]

just to clarify - did you say that your breeder produced a litter before knowing if the results of the PRA tests of the parents? I know that there is some concern about the hips, but to be honest scoring is NOT an exact science, an a higher score does not mean that the animal will develop HD or ED.

However, the PRA is more of a concern, if I understand what you are saying correctly.

Firstly, and most importantly, do you know what the parent's results are? If one or both are genetically tested and cleared of PRA (the type they test for in Labs I think is the same as in my breed, known as prcd-PRA - its version that usually takes a few years to appear), or one is a carrier and another is clear, you are ok in that department. However, if both parents are carriers (or - hopefully not! - one is affected) its a different matter.

Just so you know, if you breed a PRA carrier to another carrier, you will statistically run the risk of having puppies that are affected with the condition in that litter. If your breeder is in Vic, they may also be in violation under the code of inheritable diseases - PRA is a recognised disease under that code - it says the following in terms of carrier to carrier breeding:

1. Breeding is not recommended. Must only occur as part of an approved breeding program.# 2. All progeny must be tested for the heritable defect. 3. A diseased (Affected) animal must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animal’s heritable defect status 4. Affected progeny (or any juvenile off spring confirmed as ‘Affected’ on test) should be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition if it develops and should be under the supervision, advice and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

Note that this is far carrier to carrier matings, and for Vic breeders only.

ETA - I just re-read your OP and saw that your breeder is in SA - I can't speak for the legislation over there re heritable diseases, but others in here may know more about it. However, its important that you know what the PRA status of the parents of your puppy are.

Edited March 17, 2011 by lappiemum

[RallyValley]

Have a look at this link: http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html

If you are attached to the pup of want a definate answer before you become too attached this may be an avenue you could pursue.

ETA "For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months" This means that if you score the pup between 3 and 6 months and it comes out non-dsyplatic almost 90% of dogs are still non dsyplatic at two years.

Edited March 17, 2011 by RallyValley

[Jumblyjunior]

just to clarify - did you say that your breeder produced a litter before knowing if the results of the PRA test?

If so, that would be of concern- do you know what the parent's results are? Just so you know, if you breed a PRA carrier to another carrier, you will statistically run the risk of having puppies that are affected with the condition in that litter. If your breeder is in Vic, they may also be in violation under the code of inheritable diseases - PRA is a recognised disease under that code - it says the following in terms of carrier to carrier breeding:

1. Breeding is not recommended. Must only occur as part of an approved breeding program.# 2. All progeny must be tested for the heritable defect. 3. A diseased (Affected) animal must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animal’s heritable defect status 4. Affected progeny (or any juvenile off spring confirmed as ‘Affected’ on test) should be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition if it develops and should be under the supervision, advice and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

Note that this is far carrier to carrier matings, and for Vic breeders only.

Yes she did not have PRA results for the parents before breeding them - and it was not their first litter - this was a concern that is why we had the proviso in writing of giving the puppy back if both parents were carriers or worse. We now have certificates that both parents are clear. Apparently we were the only people out of the other 8 getting a puppy that wanted this, which worried us back thne for the new owners and about the breeder but felt if it was being done we would know.

So we were waiting on tenterhooks on that one which she delayed getting to us and then we get this yucky surprise hip certificate that we have been misled on.

I agree with both replies before - we should give her back because we would not have taken her in the first place but also if mum was 0/0 we could still have a puppy with problems - but we have always been aware it is not purely genetic a better score just improves the odds for the puppy how the puppy is nurtured has a massive effect.

Your opinions really help my hubby and I are trying to the right thing by our family and this puppy - the sad thing is I know if she has a problem we will be the best family to look after her but at what cost emotionally and financially.

Thanks for listening and posting so far guys ...she is so lovely..... - the vet we are seeing on sat is an orthopaedist who offered pen hip xrays at her desexing in 3 weeks - but obviously we will not proceed with any desexing if she is going back.

[lappiemum]

just to clarify - did you say that your breeder produced a litter before knowing if the results of the PRA test?

If so, that would be of concern- do you know what the parent's results are? Just so you know, if you breed a PRA carrier to another carrier, you will statistically run the risk of having puppies that are affected with the condition in that litter. If your breeder is in Vic, they may also be in violation under the code of inheritable diseases - PRA is a recognised disease under that code - it says the following in terms of carrier to carrier breeding:

1. Breeding is not recommended. Must only occur as part of an approved breeding program.# 2. All progeny must be tested for the heritable defect. 3. A diseased (Affected) animal must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animal’s heritable defect status 4. Affected progeny (or any juvenile off spring confirmed as ‘Affected’ on test) should be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition if it develops and should be under the supervision, advice and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

Note that this is far carrier to carrier matings, and for Vic breeders only.

Yes she did not have PRA results for the parents before breeding them - and it was not their first litter - this was a concern that is why we had the proviso in writing of giving the puppy back if both parents were carriers or worse. We now have certificates that both parents are clear. Apparently we were the only people out of the other 8 getting a puppy that wanted this, which worried us back thne for the new owners and about the breeder but felt if it was being done we would know.

So we were waiting on tenterhooks on that one which she delayed getting to us and then we get this yucky surprise hip certificate that we have been misled on.

I agree with both replies before - we should give her back because we would not have taken her in the first place but also if mum was 0/0 we could still have a puppy with problems - but we have always been aware it is not purely genetic a better score just improves the odds for the puppy how the puppy is nurtured has a massive effect.

Your opinions really help my hubby and I are trying to the right thing by our family and this puppy - the sad thing is I know if she has a problem we will be the best family to look after her but at what cost emotionally and financially.

Thanks for listening and posting so far guys ...she is so lovely..... - the vet we are seeing on sat is an orthopaedist who offered pen hip xrays at her desexing in 3 weeks - but obviously we will not proceed with any desexing if she is going back.

PRA won't be an issue then so thats ok. However, can i ask why you are looking to desex at 17/18 weeks?

[Jumblyjunior]

just to clarify - did you say that your breeder produced a litter before knowing if the results of the PRA test?

If so, that would be of concern- do you know what the parent's results are? Just so you know, if you breed a PRA carrier to another carrier, you will statistically run the risk of having puppies that are affected with the condition in that litter. If your breeder is in Vic, they may also be in violation under the code of inheritable diseases - PRA is a recognised disease under that code - it says the following in terms of carrier to carrier breeding:

1. Breeding is not recommended. Must only occur as part of an approved breeding program.# 2. All progeny must be tested for the heritable defect. 3. A diseased (Affected) animal must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animal’s heritable defect status 4. Affected progeny (or any juvenile off spring confirmed as ‘Affected’ on test) should be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition if it develops and should be under the supervision, advice and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

Note that this is far carrier to carrier matings, and for Vic breeders only.

Yes she did not have PRA results for the parents before breeding them - and it was not their first litter - this was a concern that is why we had the proviso in writing of giving the puppy back if both parents were carriers or worse. We now have certificates that both parents are clear. Apparently we were the only people out of the other 8 getting a puppy that wanted this, which worried us back thne for the new owners and about the breeder but felt if it was being done we would know.

So we were waiting on tenterhooks on that one which she delayed getting to us and then we get this yucky surprise hip certificate that we have been misled on.

I agree with both replies before - we should give her back because we would not have taken her in the first place but also if mum was 0/0 we could still have a puppy with problems - but we have always been aware it is not purely genetic a better score just improves the odds for the puppy how the puppy is nurtured has a massive effect.

Your opinions really help my hubby and I are trying to the right thing by our family and this puppy - the sad thing is I know if she has a problem we will be the best family to look after her but at what cost emotionally and financially.

Thanks for listening and posting so far guys ...she is so lovely..... - the vet we are seeing on sat is an orthopaedist who offered pen hip xrays at her desexing in 3 weeks - but obviously we will not proceed with any desexing if she is going back.

PRA won't be an issue then so thats ok. However, can i ask why you are looking to desex at 17/18 weeks?

Because that's what the vet said so they could look at her hips and see whether we want to consider the ongoing controversial JPS procedure (which we have not decided on - mainly because of this forum) but our vet who looked after our old lab knows what we went through and says this may be an option to reduce the risk and would discuss it when she has been xrayed and examined - this was way before any of this came to light.

[lappiemum]

just to clarify - did you say that your breeder produced a litter before knowing if the results of the PRA test?

If so, that would be of concern- do you know what the parent's results are? Just so you know, if you breed a PRA carrier to another carrier, you will statistically run the risk of having puppies that are affected with the condition in that litter. If your breeder is in Vic, they may also be in violation under the code of inheritable diseases - PRA is a recognised disease under that code - it says the following in terms of carrier to carrier breeding:

1. Breeding is not recommended. Must only occur as part of an approved breeding program.# 2. All progeny must be tested for the heritable defect. 3. A diseased (Affected) animal must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animal’s heritable defect status 4. Affected progeny (or any juvenile off spring confirmed as ‘Affected’ on test) should be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition if it develops and should be under the supervision, advice and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

Note that this is far carrier to carrier matings, and for Vic breeders only.

Yes she did not have PRA results for the parents before breeding them - and it was not their first litter - this was a concern that is why we had the proviso in writing of giving the puppy back if both parents were carriers or worse. We now have certificates that both parents are clear. Apparently we were the only people out of the other 8 getting a puppy that wanted this, which worried us back thne for the new owners and about the breeder but felt if it was being done we would know.

So we were waiting on tenterhooks on that one which she delayed getting to us and then we get this yucky surprise hip certificate that we have been misled on.

I agree with both replies before - we should give her back because we would not have taken her in the first place but also if mum was 0/0 we could still have a puppy with problems - but we have always been aware it is not purely genetic a better score just improves the odds for the puppy how the puppy is nurtured has a massive effect.

Your opinions really help my hubby and I are trying to the right thing by our family and this puppy - the sad thing is I know if she has a problem we will be the best family to look after her but at what cost emotionally and financially.

Thanks for listening and posting so far guys ...she is so lovely..... - the vet we are seeing on sat is an orthopaedist who offered pen hip xrays at her desexing in 3 weeks - but obviously we will not proceed with any desexing if she is going back.

PRA won't be an issue then so thats ok. However, can i ask why you are looking to desex at 17/18 weeks?

Because that's what the vet said so they could look at her hips and see whether we want to consider the ongoing controversial JPS procedure (which we have not decided on - mainly because of this forum) but our vet who looked after our old lab knows what we went through and says this may be an option to reduce the risk and would discuss it when she has been xrayed and examined - this was way before any of this came to light.

I hadn't heard that desexing would reduce the risk of HD, but I'm sure others more knowledgable in Labs would have some idea. In our breed most breeders I know would usually recommend desexing much later (around 12 months) as hormonal maturity helps with the development of bone and muscle structure - important esp if you are going to have an animal with a very active lifestyle. Maybe its different with Labs though?

[shortstep]

Do you know when the dam was xrayed? Was it any time around her heat, preg or when raising the pups?

[Jumblyjunior]

just to clarify - did you say that your breeder produced a litter before knowing if the results of the PRA test?

If so, that would be of concern- do you know what the parent's results are? Just so you know, if you breed a PRA carrier to another carrier, you will statistically run the risk of having puppies that are affected with the condition in that litter. If your breeder is in Vic, they may also be in violation under the code of inheritable diseases - PRA is a recognised disease under that code - it says the following in terms of carrier to carrier breeding:

1. Breeding is not recommended. Must only occur as part of an approved breeding program.# 2. All progeny must be tested for the heritable defect. 3. A diseased (Affected) animal must not be disposed of to another person without advice of the animal’s heritable defect status 4. Affected progeny (or any juvenile off spring confirmed as ‘Affected’ on test) should be de-sexed unless they are to be used in an approved breeding program, must not be permitted by their owner to suffer from their condition if it develops and should be under the supervision, advice and monitoring of a veterinary practitioner.

Note that this is far carrier to carrier matings, and for Vic breeders only.

Yes she did not have PRA results for the parents before breeding them - and it was not their first litter - this was a concern that is why we had the proviso in writing of giving the puppy back if both parents were carriers or worse. We now have certificates that both parents are clear. Apparently we were the only people out of the other 8 getting a puppy that wanted this, which worried us back thne for the new owners and about the breeder but felt if it was being done we would know.

So we were waiting on tenterhooks on that one which she delayed getting to us and then we get this yucky surprise hip certificate that we have been misled on.

I agree with both replies before - we should give her back because we would not have taken her in the first place but also if mum was 0/0 we could still have a puppy with problems - but we have always been aware it is not purely genetic a better score just improves the odds for the puppy how the puppy is nurtured has a massive effect.

Your opinions really help my hubby and I are trying to the right thing by our family and this puppy - the sad thing is I know if she has a problem we will be the best family to look after her but at what cost emotionally and financially.

Thanks for listening and posting so far guys ...she is so lovely..... - the vet we are seeing on sat is an orthopaedist who offered pen hip xrays at her desexing in 3 weeks - but obviously we will not proceed with any desexing if she is going back.

PRA won't be an issue then so thats ok. However, can i ask why you are looking to desex at 17/18 weeks?

Because that's what the vet said so they could look at her hips and see whether we want to consider the ongoing controversial JPS procedure (which we have not decided on - mainly because of this forum) but our vet who looked after our old lab knows what we went through and says this may be an option to reduce the risk and would discuss it when she has been xrayed and examined - this was way before any of this came to light.

I hadn't heard that desexing would reduce the risk of HD, but I'm sure others more knowledgable in Labs would have some idea. In our breed most breeders I know would usually recommend desexing much later (around 12 months) as hormonal maturity helps with the development of bone and muscle structure - important esp if you are going to have an animal with a very active lifestyle. Maybe its different with Labs though?

No I don't think they suggested it early for any benefit but suggested this was a good time?? they brought it up not us and again at puppy school they said 20 weeks or before is this purely for reasons of doing a jps?? i don' tknow - our old boy was desexed at 8 months. Will have to ask vet on saturday. Thanks

[Jumblyjunior]

Do you know when the dam was xrayed? Was it any time around her heat, preg or when raising the pups?

By her DOB and her xray date she would have been about 15 months old. I don't know is she was in heat or pregnant or raising pups. I would hope she was scored before she was bred but I have my doubts and the score did not stop her being bred.

[MolassesLass]

I hadn't heard that desexing would reduce the risk of HD, but I'm sure others more knowledgable in Labs would have some idea. In our breed most breeders I know would usually recommend desexing much later (around 12 months) as hormonal maturity helps with the development of bone and muscle structure - important esp if you are going to have an animal with a very active lifestyle. Maybe its different with Labs though?

JPS isn't desexing, it's a surgical, preventative, HD treatment. The vet was suggesting having the dog desexed at the same time the JPS is done (which needs to be at around 4 months old).

Jumblyjunior early desexing may make bad joints worse (without hormones, the long bones take a little longer to stop growing than they otherwise would have) so I would not be doing that if you keep this pup. I have nothing against early desexing in many cases (I do it for my pet BC pups) but it's not always the right thing to do.

[lappiemum]

I hadn't heard that desexing would reduce the risk of HD, but I'm sure others more knowledgable in Labs would have some idea. In our breed most breeders I know would usually recommend desexing much later (around 12 months) as hormonal maturity helps with the development of bone and muscle structure - important esp if you are going to have an animal with a very active lifestyle. Maybe its different with Labs though?

JPS isn't desexing, it's a surgical, preventative, HD treatment. The vet was suggesting having the dog desexed at the same time the JPS is done (which needs to be at around 4 months old).

Jumblyjunior early desexing may make bad joints worse (without hormones, the long bones take a little longer to stop growing than they otherwise would have) so I would not be doing that if you keep this pup. I have nothing against early desexing in many cases (I do it for my pet BC pups) but it's not always the right thing to do.

Ah, that makes sense now - sorry, had trouble reading that bit and got myself slightly confused! (rather easy!).

I know that many vets do seem to jump at the opportunity for desexing, but to be honest if you are keeping this puppy I would hold off on that - let her develop normally and that will help with her bone growth and structure.

[Miranda]

Personally I wouldn't panic, 9/10 isn't that high and neither is a 4 on subluxation. If she were my pup I would just let her grow up and have her scored once she turns 12 months. A dog/puppy would have to have extremely high scores before I would consider any form of surgical intervention.

I have never heard that early desexing lessens the chance of HD developing, quite the opposite in fact.

[shortstep]

Desexing and HD. Desexing prior to 1 year of age does increase the likelyhood of a higher score.

The current evidence sugests that slowing down growth (which means to not desex prior to 12 motnhs of age), keeping pup very lean, reduced calcium diet, and prevention of stressful activites of the joints, will improve scores. This improvement can be enough to prevent HD or at the very least reduce the severity of HD.

Desexing prior to the bones having completed their growth increases the time a dog will continue to grow and will even increases their height. It is not recommended to desex prior to 12 months if you are at all worried about HD.

[aussielover]

If you love the puppy, i dont think you should give her back.

YOU were the ones who decided to buy her in the first place, without having checked the parents hip scores, pra tests etc, so i really think the puppy is your responsibility now, it is unfair to give someone else the responsibility.

Besides, HD is a multifactorial disease, good hip scores dont mean the puppy can't get HD. Puppies have been affected even where both parents have 0/0 elbows and hips.

Be very careful not to overexercise this puppy and feed it a good diet. I also recommend delaying desexing to as late as possible- ideally let her have one season, but if not possible then wait at least to 6 months.

If you're really concerned, get the pup Pennhip scored as others have suggested.

No one wants an unhealthy dog, but at this stage she isn't showing and signs of HD and seems to be doing well.

[Jumblyjunior]

If you love the puppy, i dont think you should give her back.

YOU were the ones who decided to buy her in the first place, without having checked the parents hip scores, pra tests etc, so i really think the puppy is your responsibility now, it is unfair to give someone else the responsibility.

Besides, HD is a multifactorial disease, good hip scores dont mean the puppy can't get HD. Puppies have been affected even where both parents have 0/0 elbows and hips.

Be very careful not to overexercise this puppy and feed it a good diet. I also recommend delaying desexing to as late as possible- ideally let her have one season, but if not possible then wait at least to 6 months.

If you're really concerned, get the pup Pennhip scored as others have suggested.

No one wants an unhealthy dog, but at this stage she isn't showing and signs of HD and seems to be doing well.

I think saying we did not check the hip scores first or worry about PRA is unfair - as we did both of these things - only thing is we were told the wrong info (in writing) our only naivety was to not get the actual certificate and confirm the breeder was being honest and as i have said earlier that we were aware that perfect parents hips does not mean perfect puppy. Do you think it is unfair that a breeder mislead a buyer?

Also we never were told desexing would help HD - we were advised to do at 4 months but will now investigate if delaying it will improve her chances against HD.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Firstly, I would be happy if I had original certified copies of the PRA results.

If it were me I would get the Penn hip done at the appropriate age and go from there. Penn hip will give you the most accurate information of the formation of the hips. I wouldn't desex at this time or feel pressured into any other surgery until you've discussed the Penn hip results (and if they are bad, slept on it, then discussed it with your breeder).

You have to ultimately decide that if you have a dog with average hips, that you may have to deal again with a dog with a shortened lifespan, and that it becomes expensive later in life for supportive medications. If you don't want that or wanted a sports dog you may need to think again. IMO 7/7 is not much different to 9/10...but that's just my opinion.