Bilbo Baggins Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 (edited) I am very happy to talk to anyone about Lactation problems. 0437570650 I cannot stress enough the importance of fenugreek as a galactagogue. Below is an excellent article by a Lactation Consultant/doctor. She also decribes its other uses. http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/fenugreekoverlooked.shtml "Fenugreek's mechanism of action seems to be related to its' propensity to increase sweat production. As you may remember, the breasts are modified sweat glands. I am one who almost never sweats and that may be why I am a poor milk producer." Quote from article. In 1996 I had attended a post speciality show seminar by the judge who was a naturapath in Finland. She discussed using naturapathic remedies for increasing milk production, amongst other things. I became a Lactation Consultant in 1996 and learnt about managing human lactation including increasing supply. Some 6 months later a friend and I had 5-7 day prem litter where the mum also got mastitis and reduced her milk supply. We got some remedies from one of the attendees at the seminar who was also a naturapath.We used our lactation knowledge(she was an ABA Councellor) to express mum, latch the pups and survive, 5 of her pups and 1 of mine. I had had my girl desexed at caesar as it was her last litter and she lost a bit of blood. Only 1 pup survived and was a poor feeder from day 1. When the other pups were born I put my pup with the new mum and she greatly improved. When the milk supply dropped and we got the remedies we also gave them to my girl who by now was about 10 days post birth and had not had her pup for about 7 days. We started them about 6pm and by 8am the next morning she had expressable milk which she did not have the night before. We felt this was a good indication of the remedies working. We did not give her back her pup as she was not interested in it. About 5 days after starting the remedies and expressing and constantly latching the pups we had acheived full supply and no longer needed to top them up. In 2004 my ruby girl in my avatar had her first litter. After delivery I noticed that her back two nipples were rather flat and the pups had difficutly attaching. This picture was taken after her second litter and you can see that the back nipple is flat compared to the other two visible ones. I Googled 'animal and naturapath', as by now had lost the phone number of the naturapath we had originally used,and discovered a naturapathic vet in nearby Thornbury. I took Ruby to her and got some remedies to assist her mammery development.Unfortunately I should have gone earlier in her pregnancy. Some improvement occured but not enough for the pups to latch on well. Due to not being drained the back two boobs became engorged and to manage this Ruby dropped her supply not only to the unused boobs but all of them. Back to the naturapthic vet and got remedies for increasing supply. By 2006 fenugreek was a well established galactagogue in human lactation. So I deceided to try it with Ruby after her second litter. I used fenuegrrek seeds and ground them in a coffee grinder. Great result no topping up of pups. 7 did not survive 1 faded and she sat on one while I was sitting next to the box. Since then I routinely give 1 heaped teaspoon of fenuregreek twice a day for at least 2 weeks. I mix it in the wet food. It could also be mixed with minced chicken or beef into balls if you are not giving moist food. I would suggest that with a large litter fenugreek is a must to maintain adequate supply. Edited July 19, 2011 by Bilbo Baggins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzz Top Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Hi should we give Fenuegreek before they have the pups or after or both ? I had my oldest girl 6 years old at the time, have a litter last year and 2 of her puppies were fading fast at 3 days old, went to the vet and he gave them fluids under the skin and told me to give her fenuegreek, which I did and with in 24 hour she had lots of milk and puppies were doing great. :D This girl is 6 years old and has 7 days to go should I give her some fenuegreek now or wait till the pups are born Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 My girl won't eat it powdered in food but I've made a tea and mixed it with her milk-replacer drink and she's loving it! Fingers crossed milk seems to be increasing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 Hi should we give Fenuegreek before they have the pups or after or both ? I had my oldest girl 6 years old at the time, have a litter last year and 2 of her puppies were fading fast at 3 days old, went to the vet and he gave them fluids under the skin and told me to give her fenuegreek, which I did and with in 24 hour she had lots of milk and puppies were doing great. :D This girl is 6 years old and has 7 days to go should I give her some fenuegreek now or wait till the pups are born zzz Top there is no point giving it to her before the pups are born. When all the placentas are out milk production kicks in. This is why its important to count the placentas and any doubt have a shot of oxytocin. The body still thinks its pregnant if a placenta is retained and milk production is limited. Because of my girls' nipple problem I knew she would be engorged then shut the supply down to manage that, so I would give it to her from the first meal. Other girls I wait to see what happens. With caesar I give with the first meal because they have missed the stimulation of the pups sucking as each is born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 My girl won't eat it powdered in food but I've made a tea and mixed it with her milk-replacer drink and she's loving it! Fingers crossed milk seems to be increasing... That is great Alyosha, get it into her anyway possible. It would be interesting to find out the dose using human tablets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I don't blame them for not eating it, the stuff smells horrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I don't blame them for not eating it, the stuff smells horrid. agree and so does Fern, only way she would eat it was to mix it in with stinky tinned puppy food. Next time I will use capsules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Funny though, she gets excited by the smell of it but then won't eat it. Maybe it's just that her appetite isn't quite back yet. She is loving it in her milk. Our milk was slow to start because of retained placentas like BB said. We had a shot of oxytocin the day after whelping and it has been steadily increasing. But slowly. I don't doubt we would've lost some pups without giving them extra, one small one was weakening the first night. He just didn't have any reserves. As it is, they're all thriving and her milk is almost enough now to support them - so worth the extra effort of supplementary feeding. I'm looking forward to the end of it though, and a little more sleep!! So the fenugreek tea is my new best friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ish Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I used it for a bitch who had a singleton puppy, but at the time could only get it in seed form from the health food shop (they said it loses goodness quickly once powdered). I had to make it up like a tea and pour it over her food, but it definitely worked and helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I plan to have a chat to a pharmacist soon and see if he and work out the dose of a teaspoon to the human capsules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 I had the same issue as ISH - I could only get the seed to brew as a tea. I did that and added it to some goats milk a few times a day, she drank it quite happily and we ended up with mastitis in 1 very engorged teat but she did feed 9 puppies without any supplementing from me at all. I did start to wean early to help her but she didn't agree with that. They are 7 weeks old now and she is still feeding them. Interesting about the retained placentas - I didn't know about that and we did have retained placentas and a shot of oxytocin about 4 hours after the last pup, it was probably another 4 hours before she passed the last 1. I guess that is probably why her milk was slow to start coming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 The seeds can be ground into a powder in a coffee grinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It's working for us made as a tea - I'm using the tea as a base for her goats-milk formula. She's not only increasing her milk, but holding condition very well - even slightly increasing her weight - despite being picky with her food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britt3 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I don't blame them for not eating it, the stuff smells horrid. lol.... I SECOND that sway.. i reckon it smells like curry 7 so do my babies lol however i strongly reccomend it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpoint GSP Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Mia hasn't seemed to have any problems feeding the pups so far and afterwards they lay together looking 'milk drunk' and are quiet and sleeping. Im' taking this as a good sign that they're getting enough for now, is this right? HOWEVER - there are a couple of pretty big girls who are drinking a lot and I noticed after they fed just a little while ago while I was looking for another nipple for one of the smaller ones, that some were a bit 'empty'. Now as i'm not all that experienced in this field (Horses i've got under control - dogs - i'm learning!) I'm not sure if this is 100% normal and by the time they've rested she'll be fine again or if there should be more left over? If someone can help me out with this that would be great! It's now Day 3 and i'm thinking should I try some fenugreek as obviously the pups are only going to get bigger and need more! So where do I get it from, what do I do with it and how much do I give? I appreciate all the advice i've received so far and am soaking it all up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) Jetpoint I tried to locate an article by an American vet that I discovered when researching swimmer pups. It was on the Chinaroad website but becuase it is no longer as readable I could not, so I googled without much succes but found this "A healthy newborn may lose weight in the first few days of life but should start to gain weight by the time she is forty-eight hours old. In fact, she should double her birth weight in eight to ten days. A good indicator of a pup’s potential to put on healthy weight is to see if the mother is gaining weight, as this is a sign that she has the nutritional support available to pass on to her litter. A puppy that loses 10 percent or more of her birth weight in the first two days of life and does not start gaining by three days probably will not survive unless she is hand-fed. Learning how to properly hand-feed your puppies is imperative, as mistakes in feeding can result in trouble. A puppy who at birth weighs about 25 percent less than her litter mates should be placed in an incubator and hand-fed. Many underweight puppies can be saved if quick action is taken and their weakness is not complicated by disease or hereditary defects." The article I was looking for described the the weight gain as 10% a day which means they double the weight at 10 days. I have kept records of my weight gains and had worked out that the pups would be double their bith weight by 9 days. I just went and looked at my records and except for the fading puppies the weight loss has been just over and mainly under 10%. Mostly they have more than doubled their weight by 10 days. In a few of the articles I just glanced at it was recommended to weight the pups twice daily for 2 weeks, which I have always done. Edited July 12, 2011 by Bilbo Baggins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpoint GSP Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Well we've all put weight on and are above birth weight now. 2 dropped between birth and yesterday but all are up again today. Vet had a look at them and was happy with them and mia's milk supply so I'm feeling better. Mia is doing really well with the pups now so it's less to stress about now!! I know i over worry about things but as you all do too i just couldn't bear it if anything happened to my Mia or those lovely pups! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 my scales went kaput when I weighed the pups the first time so none were weighed until I got a replacement. I went by look and feel and they were/are all fine, even the one I lost at a week old. Have since weighed them for worming but that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Like you Rebanne, I was without. Mine went kaput when I got then out for the whelping - they'd been "fixed" by the kids... I have gone by feel/observation as well. But I will second BB's comments on early correct intervention for small pups. If they are simply small with no other contributing condition then supportive care can make all the difference. We had two vey small males in our recent litter of 12. One was very weak at birth and I didn't hold much hope. He went straight onto heat and slept. Once he woke up after 15 minutes he has never looked back. I think he was just small and fatigued from the birth. The other was small but strong, but started to get weak the very first night. Mum didn't have much milk and he had no body reserves like the heavier pups. As soon as he started dropping off the teat I started tube feeding. No waiting. He regained strength after just two feeds and again hasn't looked back. Skills like tube feeding can be difficult to learn. Anyone starting out, if you know anyone that does have skills like that - ask. Get a demo, have a hands on lesson. It seems such a simple thing once you can do it with confidence but it can make all the difference between success and heartbreak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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