Breeder Or Farmer

[BJean]

I wouldn't call your breed domestic dogs lilli. They are working dogs, no?

Some are family dogs in the burbs.

Some are terrorising their owners on their way to get to the meterman (private joke from the LGD forum).

Some are patrolling open range in the middle of nowhere.

Some are dual citizens, night time with the chickens, day time with their family.

ETA:

Looks domestic to me -

Last seen at Parkdale Beach Cafe, enjoying orange cake and cream:

Edited August 1, 2011 by lilli

[Bartok]

I went into a animal supply store yesterday (doesnt sell live animals) and one of the workers told me he has 84 dogs. After I gave him this look he said 'oh, Im a breeder.....2 different types'. I still think that sounds like a few too many dogs Lol Surely he was exaggerating...right?

He works there and has 84 dogs?

Regardless if he is a registered breeder or BYB or puppy farmer

He must have some good $$$ to pay for ppl to clean feed, socialise the dogs etc

Because looking after that many dogs doing basic care would take an 8hr day

(and yes i can speak from experience after working in a facility for 2yrs)

Maybe he does.

So what?

Who said the way I or anyone else might run 20 odd or 60 odd ++ dogs

operates anywhere near the same way as the facility that you worked for?

I would be more then interested to see anyone who has that many

dogs and how they operate.

Why does he need to have so many dogs?

If he wasnt a registered breeder he would be classed as a puppy farmer

and nobody wants puppy farms. To a degree I dont see the difference sometimes

both putting a huge amount of undesexed dogs into the community

I would question the ethics or intentions of anyone who has that many dogs

They may have day yards that they are in all day and trainers and

heaps of interacation with humans and other dogs, but I choose to be

skeptical

[MalteseLuna]

You seem to know a lot about how I should raise my dogs.

I live on my own - what's my optimal dog ownerhship ratio?

You might notice that I was drawing my "comments" about raising dogs back to their evolution i.e. how they were developed. This means that some breeds might be different to others - but largely those bred to be PETS/companions were bred/developed to be kept in small human to dog ratios... it's just the way it is/was.

I was not telling anyone a number or ratio - but rather using broad terms and my opinion. Please read the full post and don't jump to conclusions about what I was actually saying I am not saying the guy was a farmer or that people with large numbers of dogs are bad... I was just saying that to make comments about most dogs being happier in packs (like wolves) with little human interaction is not a valid comment concerning domesticated dog breeds. (perhaps there are some breeds i.e. livestock guardian breeds which might be but they are not as commonly kept in large scale breeding kennels... as far as I know...)

Working dogs might be different - I said as much.

ALL domestic dogs (this includes working dogs...) need to have human socialization to become good pets. Domestic dogs are better at being pets than other canines i.e. wolves which can be tamed but not really domesticated (as far as I have read/seen) because of their evolutionary/development history.

[poodlefan]

I think the smaller numbers of dogs held these days by breeders don't necessarily help maintain breed standards. Sometimes the emotional investment in a litter is going to see dogs retained when they really shouldn't be IMO or older dogs kept on when they should be culled from breeding program. I'd say most breeders would want to keep something when they breed - but smaller numbers mean less choice.

There would be few modern breeds of dogs that weren't at some stage or another kept in some numbers in kennels - probably Hounds and Gundogs in particular. They were managed professionally by people employed specifically for the purpose.

If you've got a number of bitches and a number of litters, you're going to have a lot more to choose from when it comes to something like your next stud dog.

There are always two sides of an argument and I don't think its accurate to suggest large numbers of dogs in and of themselves mean lower standards of care or breeding.

[KitKat]

He could be including pups as well in his count - 8 bitches, each with a litter of 8 pups, 8 sires and a couple of old relic dogs wandering about the place - easily 84 dogs on the gound...

He could have a number of them being livestock guardians each as a group out with their flocks - not in his yard etc

ETA - does the OP know what type of dogs he has? could be a greyhound kennel, could be anything!

Edited August 2, 2011 by KitKat

[KitKat]

I wouldn't call your breed domestic dogs lilli. They are working dogs, no?

Some are family dogs in the burbs.

Some are terrorising their owners on their way to get to the meterman (private joke from the LGD forum).

Some are patrolling open range in the middle of nowhere.

Some are dual citizens, night time with the chickens, day time with their family.

ETA:

Looks domestic to me -

Last seen at Parkdale Beach Cafe, enjoying orange cake and cream:

I am intending to put my name down for one of Lilli's "working dogs" - with him being a family dog in the burbs with a bit of showing and chook watching to do as well. This will all be a little while off yet - another dog now would be too many for me. But Lilli knows her dogs and pups and i wouldn't be sent a lad that just wants to spend his day patrolling - even if it meant i had to wait for another litter.

[Steve]

There are just so many variables and some of the things said here make me question ifsome people really know what it is like to live as a breeder with multiple dogs.

Not counting my working sheep dogs I have a dozen adult dogs here. Several oldies - way too old for breeding. I dont need to spend any time training them they are already trained. They are all well mannered and well adjusted dogs. They cant talk but they appear happy and very contented

I dont need to spend more than a few minutes picking up poo twice a day as they are fed a diet which makes their poos less offensive and they only drop one or two a day in the yarded area which is 2 and a half acres. They dont live or run on concrete and most of the day they seem to want to mooch around lying in the sun

They say hello to the various people - family, workmen etc who come and go here daily and just hang out with me and my family. Its comfortable, no dramas no need for massive work or concern about whether they need anything they may not be getting. They like people, they like dogs and cats and chooks. Sometimes they are penned in smaller grassed areas if we are concreting and dont want them to help us etc for short periods.

Right now I have puppies around 6 weeks old 2 litters of Maremma = 17 Maremma pups and a brand new litter of 5 beagle pups still inside in the loungeroom

The 17 pups and 2 bitches in the main hang out on the porch close to my kitchen door. Puppies were inside until they were 3 weeks old and they moved out onto the porch.

By the time their Mums have stopped cleaning up after them they are moving out onto the grass to go to the toot so now at 6 weeks there isnt any mess for me to be cleaning up bar a bit of poop scooping. The pups are clean and so is the porch and now they move with me and follow as if Im the pied piper as I move around the yard.

Feed time is 4 times per day and I feed the two bitches, two older pups [14 weeks old] and the babies at the same time in the same place with the food in baking pans so more heads can fit in to eat at once. There is no fuss, no arguments, no snarling, none getting too much none getting too little.I play with them talk to them, Trip over them pat and cuddle them several times a day. They explore a little wider afield each day and play with their Mums and each other while they are not sleeping.I noticed last night the bitches were encouraging them to move out further into the yard after dark too. But they come and go as they please and I know they cant get out of the yard area and its as safe as I can make it. They have had short spells with the sheep and take no notice of the cats.

They watch through the screen door at what is going on in the kitchen and offer me words of encouragement as I prepare their food and they come in a couple at a times to supervise the household cleaning and have extra one on one. In the last week before they go home the ones destined for sheep work will see more of the sheep, the ones going to chicken farms will see more of the chickens and the ones going out as pets will get more cuddles but for me none of this is work. I dont see any of it as training or cleaning - its just a lifestyle .This morning they all wrestled in the freshly dug dirt to help me with digging my new vegie garden.Im not planting anything in it until the fence is up around it.;)

I have a standout pick pup to keep and work my new lambs which is exactly what I was aiming for and the rest will do the gene pool proud.

You cant manage all breeds this way and depending on where you live and how you live most people couldnt handle this breed that way plus the beagles will come and go in the house more than the Maremmas do and need different things to prepare them for how they are going to live as they get older. 17 beagle pups would be much more of a challenge and the beagle bitches arent as eager to share the work load. I wouldnt consider it.

Humans and dogs are healthy , happy and contented . Everything here from the ground up inside and out has been designed for easy cleaning and living harmoniously with dogs.

I know that the numbers I have is my limit - its fun, its easy and a laid back way to live and enjoy life but I do many other things and dont just have the dogs to be responsible for.

Could someone who does nothing else but the dogs with the help of her hubby each day and maybe throw in a couple of kids look after 80 plus without the dogs missing out on something . I think so but so much depends on the environment and the breed and the management that Id rather not judge without all of the info. Thats all.

[MalteseLuna]

Steve, your an example of a good ethical responsible breeder who knows how to handle a larger number of dogs (20+) and knows that different breeds might have different requirements i.e. Maremmas vs Beagles ;) and knows your limits.

There is still a large leap from 20 dogs (with seasonal increases when litters are on the ground) and 84 dogs (though this could be so high if there are litters on the ground)... of course there are more variables which should affect the ultimate judgment.

It's funny my partner always gets annoyed at me doing just this - hypothesizing about what ifs or situations where I can never know the full story or truth. In the end we will never have the full story - whilst it's been a lively discussion - without more information we can't really make a valid judgment without making assumptions

He could be a responsible ethical breeder with a large kennel that he maintains to a high standard or he could be a profit hungry puppy farming etc.... we shall never know ;)

[Steve]

Steve, your an example of a good ethical responsible breeder who knows how to handle a larger number of dogs (20+) and knows that different breeds might have different requirements i.e. Maremmas vs Beagles ;) and knows your limits.

There is still a large leap from 20 dogs (with seasonal increases when litters are on the ground) and 84 dogs (though this could be so high if there are litters on the ground)... of course there are more variables which should affect the ultimate judgment.

It's funny my partner always gets annoyed at me doing just this - hypothesizing about what ifs or situations where I can never know the full story or truth. In the end we will never have the full story - whilst it's been a lively discussion - without more information we can't really make a valid judgment without making assumptions

He could be a responsible ethical breeder with a large kennel that he maintains to a high standard or he could be a profit hungry puppy farming etc.... we shall never know ;)

Thats really it in a nutshell and its good to remember before we race in and brand someone without being able to know all of the facts.

The happiest Ive ever seen dogs is when they can dig and roll in dirt and lay in the sunshine and the idea of those concrete prisons especially to keep them in 24 hours a day must be hell for them but we have to remember that in some places that is a mandatory way of housing them. No point in complaining about dogs which come home without knowing what grass is when much of what is expected of a "kennel" is non porous floors.

Sad no one has worked out that you need different facilities to house dogs which are there for breeding 365 days a year and those which are in a boarding situation or rescue.