Zug Zug Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 We adopted a 6 yo old male poodle Labrador x from the Animal Welfare League on Xmas eve. We have an older 12 yo old poodle x already at home, who has always been snappy with dogs she doesn't know. They have had 2 fights in the last 2 days. The first one left our old girl with a small wound to her throat. The second fight left her with an awful laceration across her face, which has needed 5 stitches under anaesthetic overnight. I am pretty sure she started both fights, but obviously he is retaliating and it is a dangerous situation. Today I am trying to decide whether we try to work through these issues, or return him to the pound. First priority needs to be her health and safety. She is crated today, and will wear an Eluzabethan collar until her face heals. Planning to muzzle him as an absolute minimum and seek advice from a behaviourist today if possible. She won't be able to wear a muzzle until she is healed, so keeping them strictly separated. What are your experiences?? I want to hear good and bad please. Are these problems that can be resolved? Or is the best hope to manage them safely? I think I need to make a decision today whether he stays or not. He is a bit of a goober but generally very obedient and a nice boy overall and quite willing to be trained. She is very well trained in obedience, but has always struggled with anxiety and fear aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) *puts flame suit on* sorry .. I think asking a very old dog, with known issues around strange dogs , to happily accept a (larger)pushy newcomer , is a big ask, and unfair on the poor old thing, and yes, dangerous. having to confine/possibly muzzle her and completely change her routine/place in the pack also seems unfair ..she is old, and , IMO deserves just to enjoy her remaining time with as little stress as possible. The other boy is gorgeous, I know ... this is something I would not inflict on any of my oldies .. I wish you wisdom. Edited December 28, 2011 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganman Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I would return the dog its not fair on the 12 year old shes to old to have to put up with that sort of stuff.Why do you want another dog if shes funny with dogs she doesnt know and bringing in an adult is more likely to cause problems.She might adapt better to a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clyde Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I agree with Persephone. I also don't agree with muzzling dogs in this instance, best to just keep separated and take it slowly. I think given your old girls issues that perhaps a dog who retaliates is not the answer, sounds like she needs a very submissive dog who will back away from confrontation rather than react. Tough decision for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Can you keep them separated for now? I have a dog here with fear aggression but he is great with other dogs as soon as he gets to know them. Is your dog the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Thanks everyone. Yes it is a hard decision but you are not saying anything that surprises me. In relation to the last question, she has mixed well with some dogs during her life and when she was younger she would adjust quickly and then just enjoy playing with them after possibly some initial hesitation. These days I keep her on lead and generally give her space from other dogs. She is snappy and in recent years she seems less able to cope with the rough and tumble stuff. So long as I have her on lead there haven't been any serious problems. Re the question why I wanted another dog - ironically it was partly to keep her company, but primarily it was for me to enjoy, play with and train. She still enjoys training but I've taken her as far as I can with that and I was wanting to have a second dog to muck around with as well. We'd always had 2 dogs - our bichon boy died earlier this year (in June). He and Zamba used to love playing and running around together. He was a very submissive, smaller dog who did not present any challenge to her. I am not sure about a puppy. I think it would be easier initially, but I also suspect that as that puppy grew up we may end up facing the same problems. We were planning to get a puppy until recently, and then brought this boy home. He seemed gentle at the time. Can't get hold of a behaviourist today for any professional advice. I have rung the Animal Welfare League again and am waiting for them to call me back. ETA: yes they are definitely separated for now. Not taking any more risks today. Feeling very sad because I really like him. Re size: she stands 18 inches at the shoulder, he is 20 inches. But she only weighs 9ks and he is 18 kgs so he is much bigger, although not much taller if that makes sense. Edited December 29, 2011 by Zug Zug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristineX Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Normal advice is - separation, some people I have read about do a lot of one dog crated, one out and rotate, with any time that both are out there is very close supervision. Also upping the NILIF for both dogs, upping leadership (although mini's can be so damn fast), maybe having separate 'rest spots', ie if they are in a room, each has a designated place to be in (and not,of course, next to each other). I do know where you are coming from, when I got Duke - umm, he's rather dog dominate and quite happy to put holes in Kate's head to prove it. Never more than a puncture of the skin, and I am not sure what I would have done if it had not been clear that Kate absolutely adored him ..... As my rules have gotten clearer, and my leadership better and I now have crates (and Duke will now give a quick look my way before launching into Kate which gives me a chance to say NO) there have been no punctures for about a year and a half. He's quite willing to have noisy snarling 'alpha rolling' when food is involved, though, so I manage that carefully. (explaining this to one's mother, however, is a great deal more difficult) I had a lot of help from duke's dog shrink - but Christmas time its hard to get anyone's attention. But Zamba may be at a time in her life when she wants a lot more space (at 10, Kate no longer wants to know other dogs, she has duke and that is enough for her), and it will take your new dog time to learn all the rules and give her that space. Hopefully much faster than it took duke, although I always think that if I had known more about strong leadership etc, I could have sorted thru his issues in much quicker time. I hope this has been of help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 My old girl (12 years) is dog aggressive but has accepted dogs into the household. I have found it easier to introduce new dogs to her when they are puppies, they are less threatening and won't react to confrontation. I haven't had any major issues as the other dogs got older. The biggest issue I faced was my older dog (female) not wanting my GSD to come close to me, this got sorted out though and he is a non confrontational dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Maybe you could also try to identify what has been causing the arguments and remove them from those situations? For example if they've been over food, resting place, guarding, etc. My dogs are thankfully both non confrontational especially with smaller dogs (my big one is actually very dominant but would still rather avoid than fight back). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Fox Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 You'll need to keep them seperate for now, or perhaps permanently. Muzzling the dogs won't stop them fighting. Give Mark Singer a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 I have left several messages for Mark Singer. I suspect he may be on holidays. Re the cause of the problems - we have kept food, toys, excitement away since their first scrap. Last night's fight happened over just being too close to each other while moving, from what I could see. They were metres from people, running past a coffee table when the fight broke out. Lightning fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Sorry this has happened to you I hope you can sort things out, but if you can't its probably best to return the male to the AWL. Did they meet before you brought him home? It may be that these 2 just don't have compatible personalities. Do you think she would feel less threatened by a smaller, younger, submissive dog? Would she keep attacking even if the other dog didn't fight back? I guess the difficult thing with rescue is that you can't really be sure of the true temperament. Did he come from a foster home and how was he with other dogs there? My honest opinion is that I would return the male, it is not worth the risk and stress to either dog and I don't know if I could ever fully trust them to be alone together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 Yes they did meet before we adopted him. They seemed to get along well at that stage. I don't know if she would still fight if the other dog stopped. I don't think she would. My old dog who died earlier this year was smaller and quite submissive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 We returned him to AWL today. Zamba is safe and we will concentrate on getting her better before giving any thought to whether or not it would be appropriate to try again with a puppy at some time in the future. There was someone there interested in him immediately. I think they will re-assess him first. I have made clear to them I think my dog started both fights. I hope he finds a good home - he really is a nice dog but too much for Zamba to cope with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 He looked a nice boy - I'm sure he will find some people to love Zamba will recover , after a bit of a 'culture shock' ..poor old girl . Hard decision ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 I really hope you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 You'll need to keep them seperate for now, or perhaps permanently. Muzzling the dogs won't stop them fighting. Give Mark Singer a call. Agree. Also, if one is wearing a muzzle they both must be muzzled otherwise the fight can still happen but one can't fight back. Even then, biting is only one part of a fight. If it was me, I couldn't live with my dogs permanently separated - I like my dogs TP be part of my family and I just wouldn't be able to spend enough time with them if they needed to be separated. My girl can be DAtowardscstrange dogs in the "right" circumstances however she lives happily with my boy. They have only had one tiff though and neither even had a scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 You have absolutely done the right thing in returning him - best to do it early and he will settle quickly into a new home and your old girl will go back to normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zug Zug Posted December 29, 2011 Author Share Posted December 29, 2011 Zamba and Mozart had one fight that I can recall - but never a scratch. They lived together happily for over 10 years. She is sleeping safely on his bed now. Elizabethan collar doesn't seem to worry her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 She is sleeping safely on his bed now. Elizabethan collar doesn't seem to worry her. ;) I think we need photos of the 'matriarch' .Old dogs are certainly characters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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