m-sass Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools. An Ecollar is only the evolution of a check chain :D I disagree with that. They are used in different ways and work differently, and there are places where ecollars are banned, including all competitions. An Ecollar can be used in exactly the same fashion as a check chain amoungst other ways that exceeds a check chain's capability. It's no different than the old days washing board to todays latest front loading automatic washing machine, they both get the clothes clean as a check chain and Ecollar trains the dog, evolution/technology makes it easier to use with better results :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 An Ecollar can be used in exactly the same fashion as a check chain amoungst other ways that exceeds a check chain's capability. It's no different than the old days washing board to todays latest front loading automatic washing machine, they both get the clothes clean as a check chain and Ecollar trains the dog, evolution/technology makes it easier to use with better results :) By your average pet owner? Hardly. Many struggle to handle the leash properly at first. Half can't even fit a check chain correctly. Many have issues with the timing of corrections and rewards. What most folk with dogs that pull need is TRAINING. Training on how to prevent and to cure the problem. An e-collar without appropriate training is a total waste of money IMO and severe overkill for an issue that most half way decent dog trainers can resolve quite quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why would you want to? That's overkill don't you think? LLW is not a difficult behaviour to teach, any decent trainer should be able to teach that with normal tools. An Ecollar is only the evolution of a check chain :D I disagree with that. They are used in different ways and work differently, and there are places where ecollars are banned, including all competitions. An Ecollar can be used in exactly the same fashion as a check chain amoungst other ways that exceeds a check chain's capability. It's no different than the old days washing board to todays latest front loading automatic washing machine, they both get the clothes clean as a check chain and Ecollar trains the dog, evolution/technology makes it easier to use with better results :) With ecollars the use is often negative reinforcement (from memory this is so the lowest stim necessary can be used), which is not normally how check chains are used. Check chains are a physical tool, ecollars are an electronic tool, they are very different. Both aversives, yes, but not the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 you can use e-collars as positive punishment you just have to be careful the stim level is suitable. Correction chains can also be used for negative reinforcement. What do you think they use to try and save a stock killer ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melzawelza Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 I'm getting deja vu reading this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Nekhbet, out of curiosity, How would your strategy differ with a very high drive puppy to whom correction of any type on a flat collar or martingale is completely ineffective? I haven't read all of this thread, but I'd be interested to know if you got your pup to loose leash walk and how you did it? Mine (6 months) is very high drive too... (shockingly, to the point where she can literally drag me...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Is it high drive causing the pulling or simply a case of lack of foundation work and focus? What dog you have F11 and what lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 GSD- Half working and show lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Is it high drive causing the pulling or simply a case of lack of foundation work and focus? yeah you're right, it might be the lack of focus- as she's trained twice a day every day. just want to find a method that works well for her. was using a choker, now using a mountain choker (nicer on her throat) Edited February 19, 2012 by F11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 a correction chain should be good on the neck already how are you using it? The point is to give a sharp pop just before the dog applies tension on the leash and regain focus, then reward for continuing focus. A mountain choker cannot apply a sharp correction, all you can really do with it is choke the dog and unless you have an aggressive, thrashing adult you dont need to do that. Maybe try a session with a trainer to get the basics down pat, the dog should be able to walk in one session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I wasn't doing that (popping)- they (obedience) told us not to. I was also told that I'm not to have the choker- they prefer other devices that aren't unpleasant for the dog (their words). *sigh* should have listened to my mum...lol she said exactly what you said. (and thinks it's rubbish on how they're teaching methods now) Thanks- I will try this today, and let you know how I go. one other thing- what word do I use in regard to the correction- if any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 what was the point of the chain if no popping :laugh: oh some people teach the darndest things Firstly, dogs have to learn that there is an end to the leash. You want them to self correct to the leash length and not to apply constant tension hence when they're about to pull you give a pop. The pop is the 'hand of god' per say ... it's meant to come out of nowhere. Give the dog a second to soak in the correction, then call them to you and reward for coming to you. The whole time the dog sticks to you and most importantly LOOKS at your face you praise heavily. This is the way you teach a dog 1) natural focus and 2) a dog that doesnt want to pull because being next to you is better. The further away they go from you the less rewarding it becomes. You also correct just as the dog begins to focus on something (if you have one of those that sees something like a dog/person and gets hyperactive and uncontrollable) Works really quickly and easily because you are only talking/giving commands when the dog is good. Leash walking shouldn't be a commanded trick, it should be an understanding between you and the dog. That is what makes it a permanent fixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Yes! thankyou :) works very well! We will do it this way...however, now what am I to do as I can't do this in front of my trainer!??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 find a new trainer. If it is working and you are not hurting the dog, move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Not sure where your going but, let's say you want your trainer to help you achieve a certain goal, they may be going for a lesser pressured leash program for a reason. It's always funny to read people saying that training a dog to walk on a loose leash is easy, and then when I see their dogs they must have forgot to train it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Where's the Like button? :D It's always funny to read people saying that training a dog to walk on a loose leash is easy, and then when I see their dogs they must have forgot to train it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 no shoulder problems at my place ... I don't think any owner should have anxiety to converse with their trainer. That's the biggest sign to find someone else. Training is about communication and working out what is both good for dog and owner, not cramming them both into your constraints and forcing them to continue because thats what you as a trainer prefer. If it doesnt work, you may have to do something out of your comfort zone if it means dog and owner are happy, and thats what matters most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Not sure where your going but, let's say you want your trainer to help you achieve a certain goal, they may be going for a lesser pressured leash program for a reason. How bout no pressure? (walk the dog round and round in circles (pivoting around you) until the dog looks at you, then continue heeling until the dog starts pulling again OR stand perfectly still until the dog looks at you, then continue heeling until the dog starts pulling again) We were given the circle work option as opposed to the standing still option, and were told that it could take up to 20mins to gain the dogs attention... Those methods did not work for my dog- in fact it was down right embarrassing! It's always funny to read people saying that training a dog to walk on a loose leash is easy, and then when I see their dogs they must have forgot to train it lol LOL that is funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WExtremeG Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 no shoulder problems at my place ... I don't think any owner should have anxiety to converse with their trainer. That's the biggest sign to find someone else. Training is about communication and working out what is both good for dog and owner, not cramming them both into your constraints and forcing them to continue because thats what you as a trainer prefer. If it doesnt work, you may have to do something out of your comfort zone if it means dog and owner are happy, and thats what matters most. Yes, I am going to switch trainers- afterall I'm paying for something that my dog and I should be happy with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 We were given the circle work option as opposed to the standing still option, and were told that it could take up to 20mins to gain the dogs attention... Some people will check and release their dog for years. 20 minutes sounds like a pretty good deal to me, if it's true, which it often isn't with that method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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