How To Stop Pulling On The Lead.

[Aidan3]

On the other hand, when such trainers start telling me that the results I get and the timeframe in which I can reasonably expect to get such results, will depend on the dog, well I am sorry but that trainer ought not be taking money.

95% of dog behaviour falls within two standard deviations of the mean (average). If a trainer has trained more than a handful of dogs and has half a brain, they will have a reasonable expectation of how long things will take before even looking at the dog.

Dogs who come to private trainers such as myself are often coming because they fall outside of that range. In fact, I do not offer my services outside of referral. So that means at least one other trainer or vet has decided that the dog falls outside the range they are comfortable with and would be better off seeing me in fairness to the dog.

If you think you can train a Borzoi to recall to the same standard and in the same time frame as a Kelpie, you have either never met a Borzoi, or are suffering from delusions of grandeur. Why is it that different dogs are selected for different roles? Because they are different. Why is it that working dogs are selected and raised from pups in a certain way? Because their genetics and learning histories are different.

[megan_]

nah Aidan they should use the Koehler method because it works on all dogs regardless

[Cosmolo]

It is important to use tools owners are comfortable with. Timing cannot be improved with hesitation on the part of the owner because they are extremely uncomfortable. And owners have to work under threshold to learn effectively too.. If i take an owner to the point of over riding anxiety- i doubt they will retain much of what i teach them.

And yes it is cultural evolution too- but i like that people now ask questions and take a more active role in learning. I don't want to be someone who my clients are scared to question- nothing makes dog trainers beyond reproach.

I think its dangerous to underestimate the influence of owners or to suggest that everyone will develop the same dog training skills. While most probably can develop the skills, the length of time taken will vary which poses two issues- will they stick around for long enough to develop the skills AND what happens to the dog during the owners learning phase- there are certain tools and techniques that i would much prefer to use over others with someone who is still developing their skills, its a very important factor. I was one who did not consider this enough in my early years of training and i know what problems result.

[mace]

Personally, I think there is too much pussy footing around with people these days. When I leaned to train, you did as you were told, you didn't tell the trainer that you didn't like for example check chains for the trainer to produced a tool you may like better, the trainer assessed your dog and told "you" what tools to use and then taught "you" how to use them being the reason you hired a trainer to learn how to train your dog? Good check chain work isn't easy to learn and get the timing right and probably most people struggled with it initially but the trainer worked on that with you until you got it right and not too many people if any that I can recall couldn't do get it right, some took a bit longer, but most mastered it easily enough after a few sessions with the trainer.

I was one of those people who messed up and lacked confidence with the check chain intially and I told my trainer exactly that, but he didn't whip out a different tool, he taught me confidence to use the tool correctly and I became good at it with great confidence, but nowdays, someone messes up intially or doesn't like a particular tool, the trainer just gives in and produces something else, not specifically to best suit the dog's behaviour, but to suit the dog's owner. I think in many cases, some trainers are too quick fire to pull out the wrong tool for the dog to suit the owner's whim where IMHO more work should be focused on the owner to teach the owner how to use the right tool for their dog.

I like that there is a variety of methods and tools for training your dog. It means that with research you can find a trainer that suits you and your dog, your training methodology/preference and if you wish to compete, the sport you are interested in. There are many ways to train every behaviour, even a simple sit.

Yes, I do too, things are much more advanced than the choke chain days, but I have found many people like to argue with trainers a lot more than they used to about tools and methods, one recently came up with a trainer suggesting an Ecollar for this particular dog and the owner refused to consider one leaving the trainer to arrange something less effective when the Ecollar would have been the ultimate in what needed to be addressed. Just thinking back when I began, you didn't argue with the trainer, you shut up listended intently and did what you were told, I guess it's culture evolution also?

So if you went to a trainer who said, "We are not using a prong, we are using a halti", would you shut up and do what you were told???

Agree with Kavik, there are methods I would not use on my dogs and that is my choice, I need both them and me to be comfortable with the methods. We have moved on from the "way back when" times.

I don't see it as "moving on" when people refuse to learn particular methods and tools, to me, that is a step backwards. In the "way back then" times, you either learned to train a dog or you didn't and only the good one's who could master the job made it as trainers like the Halti is a good example, dog walks beautifully on a Halti as a testament of training ability, ok take the Halti off and see what the dog has really learned, my guess will be nothing, so how good is that trainer?

[mace]

I am not singling out Aidan other than his name came up in this thread having worked with a particular dog mentioned, but if I was in another state from NSW and couldn't make a booking with you personally for hands on prong collar training tuition, I would choose someone off your recommended list, prong in hand and expect they would teach me how to use it? I wouldn't expect one of your recommended trainers not to provide prong tuition or refuse to use one is what I am referring to, but thanks anyway for the explanation

I'm confused, are people supposed to turn up and do what the instructor advises them, or turn up with the tool they want and tell the instructor how they would like to be instructed?

It's pretty straight forward Aidan, I want to learn how to train using a prong collar, can I book a lesson or two with you to teach me as K9Pro will, yes or no?

Edited January 12, 2012 by mace

[Aidan3]

trainers like the Halti is a good example, dog walks beautifully on a Halti as a testament of training ability, ok take the Halti off and see what the dog has really learned, my guess will be nothing, so how good is that trainer?

Whoever puts a Halti on a dog and claims that they trained the dog? That's a separate issue entirely

[Kavik]

I don't see it learning to train a dog vs not learning to train a dog It is not a black/white issue. People have different expectations and goals for their dog, as well as different commitments to training and different aptitudes.

To me, good trainers are always learning.

[Aidan3]

I am not singling out Aidan other than his name came up in this thread having worked with a particular dog mentioned, but if I was in another state from NSW and couldn't make a booking with you personally for hands on prong collar training tuition, I would choose someone off your recommended list, prong in hand and expect they would teach me how to use it? I wouldn't expect one of your recommended trainers not to provide prong tuition or refuse to use one is what I am referring to, but thanks anyway for the explanation

I'm confused, are people supposed to turn up and do what the instructor advises them, or turn up with the tool they want and tell the instructor how they would like to be instructed?

It's pretty straight forward Aidan, I want to learn how to train using a prong collar, can I book a lesson or two with you to teach me as K9Pro will, yes or no?

You're contradicting yourself with every post. In one post you're saying the dog owner should turn up and do what they're told, in the next you're saying the dog owner should turn up and tell the instructor what to do. Make up your mind. Either you go to an instructor because they will figure out the solution for you, or you figure out the solution yourself and go to the instructor to get rid of spare cash/argue.

[mace]

I am not singling out Aidan other than his name came up in this thread having worked with a particular dog mentioned, but if I was in another state from NSW and couldn't make a booking with you personally for hands on prong collar training tuition, I would choose someone off your recommended list, prong in hand and expect they would teach me how to use it? I wouldn't expect one of your recommended trainers not to provide prong tuition or refuse to use one is what I am referring to, but thanks anyway for the explanation

I'm confused, are people supposed to turn up and do what the instructor advises them, or turn up with the tool they want and tell the instructor how they would like to be instructed?

It's pretty straight forward Aidan, I want to learn how to train using a prong collar, can I book a lesson or two with you to teach me as K9Pro will, yes or no?

You're contradicting yourself with every post. In one post you're saying the dog owner should turn up and do what they're told, in the next you're saying the dog owner should turn up and tell the instructor what to do. Make up your mind. Either you go to an instructor because they will figure out the solution for you, or you figure out the solution yourself and go to the instructor to get rid of spare cash/argue.

If you read what I wrote instead of avoiding my prong collar question with an unrelated response, I spoke about dog owners arguing with a trainer's tooling and method recommendation which was actually the trainer recommending a prong and the client refusing to use a prong was the context of my post. I referred to the days when the check chain was the latest and greatest tool, clients didn't argue about tooling as they do now, they either learned to train their dog or they didn't.

Also in the check chain days, a good trainer was a person with the ability to teach, some were good at training dogs themselves but useless teachers, some were fairly good themselves and great teachers of the basics. These days many trainers blame the clients, they are not ready for certain tools etc ect, perhaps the trainers are lousy teachers being the reason the clients struggle to get their head around things and end up on a Halti to manange a behaviour. Perhaps some clients are uncomfortable using a prong because the trainer isn't a good enough teacher to instruct in the procedure effectively?

[megan_]

I don't see trainers blaming clients at all. As a client-only, I can tell you that I do have weaknesses and I need a trainer who can teach me within those boundaries.

[mace]

It is important to use tools owners are comfortable with. Timing cannot be improved with hesitation on the part of the owner because they are extremely uncomfortable. And owners have to work under threshold to learn effectively too.. If i take an owner to the point of over riding anxiety- i doubt they will retain much of what i teach them.

And yes it is cultural evolution too- but i like that people now ask questions and take a more active role in learning. I don't want to be someone who my clients are scared to question- nothing makes dog trainers beyond reproach.

I think its dangerous to underestimate the influence of owners or to suggest that everyone will develop the same dog training skills. While most probably can develop the skills, the length of time taken will vary which poses two issues- will they stick around for long enough to develop the skills AND what happens to the dog during the owners learning phase- there are certain tools and techniques that i would much prefer to use over others with someone who is still developing their skills, its a very important factor. I was one who did not consider this enough in my early years of training and i know what problems result.

Isn't it the trainers job to provide comfort to the client in what they are teaching?. Are you saying when a trainer lacks teaching ability, you change tools?

[mace]

I don't see trainers blaming clients at all. As a client-only, I can tell you that I do have weaknesses and I need a trainer who can teach me within those boundaries.

A good trainer should be able to take you beyond those boundaries and strengthen your weaknesses and provide the inspiration to achieve that IMHO.

[Jumabaar]

I don't see trainers blaming clients at all. As a client-only, I can tell you that I do have weaknesses and I need a trainer who can teach me within those boundaries.

A good trainer should be able to take you beyond those boundaries and strengthen your weaknesses and provide the inspiration to achieve that IMHO.

What about someone with physical impairments..... If they can't get the tool on the dog it doesn't matter how well it works for the dog it doesn't work for the handler. A good trainer does push their clients, but not beyond their abilities

[persephone]

What about someone with physical impairments..... If they can't get the tool on the dog it doesn't matter how well it works for the dog it doesn't work for the handler. A good trainer does push their clients, but not beyond their abilities

I used to provide head collars in these cases

The dogs were trained before being provided (therapy dogs) but because of fairly severe lack of strength/balance etc owners needed to be able to feel comfortable and retain control/communication thru the leash, as well as vocally .When out walking, the headcollars allowed them to do this .

[Kavik]

A good trainer should definitely be inspiring

[persephone]

A good trainer should definitely be inspiring

YES!!

[itsadogslife]

Posted by Aidan 95% of dog behaviour falls within two standard deviations of the mean (average). If a trainer has trained more than a handful of dogs and has half a brain, they will have a reasonable expectation of how long things will take before even looking at the dog.

Okay Aidan, let's keep it simple then. What is a reasonable time frame to train the above category of dogs to heel off-leash around distractions? Let's assume the owner is an average pet owner, and let's also assume he is compliant with instructions.

What is a reasonable time frame to get the above result?

[Aidan3]

Posted by Aidan 95% of dog behaviour falls within two standard deviations of the mean (average). If a trainer has trained more than a handful of dogs and has half a brain, they will have a reasonable expectation of how long things will take before even looking at the dog.

Okay Aidan, let's keep it simple then. What is a reasonable time frame to train the above category of dogs to heel off-leash around distractions? Let's assume the owner is an average pet owner, and let's also assume he is compliant with instructions.

What is a reasonable time frame to get the above result?

If the owner does their homework and has other people to practise with, 8 weeks should get pleasing results.

[Cosmolo]

Its not about a trainer providing comfort with regards to a tool. And i don't think a trainer showing flexibility with what different owners require means they "lack teaching ability". I often see owners less than a handful of times- sometimes once. I need to be efficient and this to me means spending more time teaching, demonstrating and assisting rather than wasting time convincing when an owner is averse to a tool. Why not choose another tool that will also be effective and has the added bonus of owner confidence?

What happens after the trainer leaves is important to me. A person who is already averse to a tool is highly likely to blame and remove the tool when anything goes wrong post session. Some of those people will not contact you again and they lose even more confidence in their ability. Those that persist with the tool may hesitate every time they attempt to use it= poor timing.

Good trainers should push their clients- but not so far over threshold that they shut down or struggle to learn. Its not that different to some of the principles we apply to the dogs.

[Aidan3]

If you read what I wrote instead of avoiding my prong collar question with an unrelated response

My response was directly related. As you very well know from your long history of arguments here under various user names I do not use prong collars myself. K9Pro is also well aware of this, and he is more interested in finding help for dogs owners than forcing some petty political/moral argument onto them. Every trainer who refers to me does so because they have come to expect that I will actually train the dog rather than bang on about which tool is the best to do it with. Just as I don't care if they use a prong collar, they don't care if I don't. The proof is in the pudding, everything else is internet waffle.