lovemyrottie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 know what you mean, but isn't it more effective to take the foundation training back a few steps to teach focus than breaking out a prong collar on a young dog? oh it definitely is. My comment was more in line with the hard and driven working lines occasionally Teaching a good foundation of the dog-handler relationship and basics is always required if you wish to progress with your dog - I believe very heavily in it and in fact don't believe in just putting any equipment on a dog for the sake of convenience or it's the latest fad to 'control' the dog. I do believe a lot of 'problems' stem from a lack of foundation like you say. Ultimately what is preferable is what helps the dog, particularly because some dogs are not acting like goofy pups at under 12 months of age. But again it is a very rare occasion and I threw the comment in as a generalised overview of what can be done and didnt really direct it towards your average dog I understand thanks for your explanation I am thinking along the lines that many believe poor behaviour is the result of using the incorrect tool where my belief is that poor behaviour is the result of a poor training foundation. Specific tools are great to rehabiliate a dog who has learned seriously poor leash behaviour, but starting off a pup with a proper training foundation I believe can be done with a flat collar and leash without the need to use speciality tools at all. I am saying that so many times I hear people complain about their dog's leash behaviour, excessive pulling etc blaming the tools they use for the misbehaviour when in fact IMHO it's their training process causing the problem not the tools they have chosen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck I don't agree that dogs take advantage of their strength, I think they take advantage of a lack of leadership from their handler to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyrottie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck I don't agree that dogs take advantage of their strength, I think they take advantage of a lack of leadership from their handler to be honest. maybe so but then howcome it's improved when i haven't changed my training technique? either way, i love the new harness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck I don't agree that dogs take advantage of their strength, I think they take advantage of a lack of leadership from their handler to be honest. maybe so but then howcome it's improved when i haven't changed my training technique? either way, i love the new harness It's designed to manage the behaviour and the way to test it to determine if the harness has taught the dog anything is take it off and see what happens ;) Adopting a better training technique could find the dog will behave appropriately off leash too, if a tool doesn't work towards an end result which to me means having obedience without leash restraint, those tools don't really excite me a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyrottie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck I don't agree that dogs take advantage of their strength, I think they take advantage of a lack of leadership from their handler to be honest. maybe so but then howcome it's improved when i haven't changed my training technique? either way, i love the new harness It's designed to manage the behaviour and the way to test it to determine if the harness has taught the dog anything is take it off and see what happens ;) Adopting a better training technique could find the dog will behave appropriately off leash too, if a tool doesn't work towards an end result which to me means having obedience without leash restraint, those tools don't really excite me a lot. fair enough, maybe it's my lack of training skills or whatever but i admit i wouldn't trust my dog off leash in public places anyway because all he wants to do is play with any dog in sight, some people even avoid walking past us, our recall command isn't reliable (my fault, i know) and being a rottie he's already been blamed for an accident that wasn't even his fault and i'll do anything to avoid similiar situations again where he'd be the first to get blamed so if it means being on leash all the time then be it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck I don't agree that dogs take advantage of their strength, I think they take advantage of a lack of leadership from their handler to be honest. maybe so but then howcome it's improved when i haven't changed my training technique? either way, i love the new harness It's designed to manage the behaviour and the way to test it to determine if the harness has taught the dog anything is take it off and see what happens ;) Adopting a better training technique could find the dog will behave appropriately off leash too, if a tool doesn't work towards an end result which to me means having obedience without leash restraint, those tools don't really excite me a lot. fair enough, maybe it's my lack of training skills or whatever but i admit i wouldn't trust my dog off leash in public places anyway because all he wants to do is play with any dog in sight, some people even avoid walking past us, our recall command isn't reliable (my fault, i know) and being a rottie he's already been blamed for an accident that wasn't even his fault and i'll do anything to avoid similiar situations again where he'd be the first to get blamed so if it means being on leash all the time then be it I get the picture of where you are coming from, but you would be amazed how a good trainer could help you achieve excellent behaviour. I am just not into tools taking priority over training to gain appropriate behaviour from a dog, "nothing" is more pleasurable to me than owning a controllable and obedient dog, it's just wonderful IMHO and beats any management tools hands down :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyrottie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 caliber was on a martingale collar not long ago, he start taking advantage of his strength and kept pulling me everywhere especially when he use to see another dog and i had very minimum control with the martingale collar (he'd be choking and wouldn't care) so i took someone's idea on this forum about trying a front attach harness and it's just been such a breeze walking him! i absolutely love the front attach harness, you get so much more control and i honestly wouldn't care if i had to use it forever if it makes our walks this enjoyable i totally recommend it but then each to their own and every dog's different, i guess! goodluck I don't agree that dogs take advantage of their strength, I think they take advantage of a lack of leadership from their handler to be honest. maybe so but then howcome it's improved when i haven't changed my training technique? either way, i love the new harness It's designed to manage the behaviour and the way to test it to determine if the harness has taught the dog anything is take it off and see what happens ;) Adopting a better training technique could find the dog will behave appropriately off leash too, if a tool doesn't work towards an end result which to me means having obedience without leash restraint, those tools don't really excite me a lot. fair enough, maybe it's my lack of training skills or whatever but i admit i wouldn't trust my dog off leash in public places anyway because all he wants to do is play with any dog in sight, some people even avoid walking past us, our recall command isn't reliable (my fault, i know) and being a rottie he's already been blamed for an accident that wasn't even his fault and i'll do anything to avoid similiar situations again where he'd be the first to get blamed so if it means being on leash all the time then be it I get the picture of where you are coming from, but you would be amazed how a good trainer could help you achieve excellent behaviour. I am just not into tools taking priority over training to gain appropriate behaviour from a dog, "nothing" is more pleasurable to me than owning a controllable and obedient dog, it's just wonderful IMHO and beats any management tools hands down :D i agree, and it's really nice seeing a controllable and obedient dog especially when they're in public places and off leash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Posted by lovemyrottie i'll do anything to avoid similiar situations again where he'd be the first to get blamed so if it means being on leash all the time then be it I know I will get into trouble here again, but the fact is that until you are prepared to make the effort to train your dog it is simply untrue that you'll do "anything" to avoid similar situations. The very best way to avoid similar situations is to train your dog. Try it, you'll be doing your dog the best favor you can do for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyrottie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Posted by lovemyrottie i'll do anything to avoid similiar situations again where he'd be the first to get blamed so if it means being on leash all the time then be it I know I will get into trouble here again, but the fact is that until you are prepared to make the effort to train your dog it is simply untrue that you'll do "anything" to avoid similar situations. The very best way to avoid similar situations is to train your dog. Try it, you'll be doing your dog the best favor you can do for him. what training are you talking about exactly? if you're talking about leash training, we're actually doing really well as i previously mentioned. he's actually a very well trained boy and we have been attending obedience training since he was younger too. if you're talking about the incident and me avoiding similiar situations, it wasn't anything to do with walking him but it was to do with an accident while his was playing with our neighbours puppy in the front yard it's just that he got blamed when there was another puppy involved too. so i don't understand what you mean by train your dog. Edited January 10, 2012 by lovemyrottie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Whilst training a solid foundation is the key to any training, to take your training beyond that sometimes different tools are needed. Dogs are not simple programmable machines, you can't simply say that all problems stem from a lack of foundation or a lack of leadership. There is a lot more too it than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Posted by lovemyrottie if you're talking about leash training, we're actually doing really well as i previously mentioned. he's actually a very well trained boy and we have been attending obedience training since he was younger too. As Mace has said, take the front harness off your dog and see how much control you have. If you are relying on the tool for control then your dog is simply not trained. The very best method for keeping your dog under control and safe is training that will bring you control independently of whatever tool you may be using. There is a man in a motorized wheelchair who lives around where I do. He keeps his two small dogs on the wheelchair on leash. Both dogs, especially the Jack Russell are completely out of control. The Jack Russell goes completely beserk whenever he sees another dog. Trying to walk past this man is a complete nightmare. Guess what happens? Every so often the Jack Russell gets loose from the man's grip. These dogs are tragedy waiting to happen. Your rottie may be well behaved and the front harness may give you a feeling of control. But should something unexpected happen not of your making, such as meeting this man above with his two completely out of control dogs the very best guarantee you have to keep your dog safe and out of harms way is training that brings you offlead control and reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Whilst training a solid foundation is the key to any training, to take your training beyond that sometimes different tools are needed. Dogs are not simple programmable machines, you can't simply say that all problems stem from a lack of foundation or a lack of leadership. There is a lot more too it than that. I completely agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mace Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Whilst training a solid foundation is the key to any training, to take your training beyond that sometimes different tools are needed. Dogs are not simple programmable machines, you can't simply say that all problems stem from a lack of foundation or a lack of leadership. There is a lot more too it than that. What I am referring to, is people overly attributing a dog's poor behaviour due to incorrect tooling, like my dog pulls like crazy so I need a new tool mentality when watching these dogs, their training is virtually nil with a lifetime of management procedures in place misconstrude as being trained. Many don't need a new tool, they need some actual training to walk on a loose leash not a tool that best manages what is really a free for all when out walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy21 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I have a strong dog and I use a front attach harness too. I find it really great! It just means that she won't yank me off my feet when something unexpected happens like a bike hooning out in front of us or a dog/cat rushing out from somewhere. I see it as a safety back up and as a great training tool, and it meant that she was having some success I could reward in the beginning. It is also more comfortable for her as she was having quite a bit of chafing around her neck from her collar (she also lunges on lead and I was worried about her hurting herself in the martingale I was using). It also allowed her to get some exercise and mental stimulation even when her leash manners were not ideal. I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was. But still not perfect. I am the first to admit that that is my fault. But this is the first dog I have trained and it has been a learning curve. I will do things differently next time - but it will be a different dog and a different situation. I feel no shame walking Willow on her harness. She is happy, and I am happy. Edited January 11, 2012 by Snoopy21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsadogslife Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Posted by Snoopy21 I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was. Not directed at yourself Snoopy, but all I can say to that is wow! The quality of obedience training in this country must be extraordinary in its ineptness if can take 3 years and 2 trainers to train a dog to walk to heel without pulling or lunging. Just wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy21 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I said it was my fault? I struggle to maintain the consistency required for this stubborn dog. I am not wanting the blame to fall on anyone but me. She heels just fine at obedience but I have struggled to translate that to regular walks in our neighbourhood. And as I said the lunging and pulling is a million times better. The trainers I used were awesome and have given me good advice and assistance. Is using a harness to walk on really the end of the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Posted by Snoopy21 I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was. Not directed at yourself Snoopy, but all I can say to that is wow! The quality of obedience training in this country must be extraordinary in its ineptness if can take 3 years and 2 trainers to train a dog to walk to heel without pulling or lunging. Just wow! How many countries have you trained dogs in, itsadogslife? I saw Willow myself for a few classes, after she had already learned some bad habits and I've got to say, Snoopy21 has done a really good job with her. Willow is a strong dog, a Dane x Lab from memory, so she had learned how to use her size advantage. A more experienced handler wouldn't have made as many mistakes along the way, good for them, but not everyone comes experienced and not everyone has a biddable dog they can easily control. I've worked with a good variety of dogs now, and while the principles stay the same, no two dogs are the same either genetically, or in their learning history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy21 Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Thanks Aidan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonecutter Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Posted by Snoopy21 I have done 3 years of obedience training, and sought the assistance of 2 other trainers. It has helped me immensely and our leash walking is a million times better than it was. Not directed at yourself Snoopy, but all I can say to that is wow! The quality of obedience training in this country must be extraordinary in its ineptness if can take 3 years and 2 trainers to train a dog to walk to heel without pulling or lunging. Just wow! How many countries have you trained dogs in, itsadogslife? I saw Willow myself for a few classes, after she had already learned some bad habits and I've got to say, Snoopy21 has done a really good job with her. Willow is a strong dog, a Dane x Lab from memory, so she had learned how to use her size advantage. A more experienced handler wouldn't have made as many mistakes along the way, good for them, but not everyone comes experienced and not everyone has a biddable dog they can easily control. I've worked with a good variety of dogs now, and while the principles stay the same, no two dogs are the same either genetically, or in their learning history. Nicely said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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