Kajtek Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 This seems to work with my HonBun aka The Hooligan The minute we see another dog I stuff her face with her fav treats. This continues until the "danger" has passed. I think she is too confused/happy to react to anything :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Yes Snook, Justice must have taken lessons off Stella on how to give the impression of "please feed or else I'm just going to fade away to a shadow, can't you see that?" while she is dribbling/drooling all over your feet :laugh: Pathetic isn't it!! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) I also feel like I know Justice and look forward to hearing his achievements , you're just an inspiration and I love his dogapillar outfit. Maybe he shouldn't wear it on play dates though, wouldn't want other dogs to be jealous and riph it off him! My feelings from a few months of huge learning curve are that any approach needs to consider not just the dog and the causes or triggers but the whole situation, especially the handler. The first behaviorist I saw ignored all the background info I had sent, sat down and read through some Internet articles, when she saw jake in action she just said PTS or never walk. So then I was recommended to go to K9pro. Yes it's expensive, sort of. By the time I got there Steve had read my background info and started at an appropriate level. My dog is smart and strong and has 5 years of behavior to unlearn and I am a novice at this. So his approach was tailored to take that into account. We can all read all the methods but why you need an expert is the experience they have will allow them to give you a set of excercises that you can do and that will be helpful for your dog. Anyone who says method X is the go, without knowing anything about you, your experience and physical ability, time available to train, your other family members living with the dog and all the other variables that the dog brings to the situation probably is not going to be helpful unless by happy coincidence that method is right for you. Jake has a prong collar, not something I love and not something he would have needed with a more experienced and stronger handler, however Jake got me and it's the right tool to allow him to be managed by me. A good behaviorist doesn't end there though, I have a daily write up that gets mailed to Steve every week and he gives me advice and guidance and this is so so very important. As your dog learns you need to change what you do, without that update you can't progress. So every week poor Steve gets to wade through my day to day and helps me keep on track and sane. So I reckon by now I've probably used up about 6 hours of his time which when you do the maths suddenly the cost of the consult doesn't look so big. I hope I'm not coming across as an ad for Steve (although I would recommend him if you can get there)I just want people to know what to look for when they go shopping for help. I think this also applies to medicating a dog, some dogs will definitely need meds just as some people will and for some it will be situational. So yes in some situations the dog may be able to be managed without but in others it will need meds. You can wish you had more skill, time, larger yard whatever but practically we need to manage our dogs with what we have and not beat ourselves up over our limitations, and definitely learn to ignore those who may try to beat us up about our dogs. I heard a lady who had two off leashers running barking in a park this week say "oh god that dogs here" and I quietly said "yes,yes he is and he is on leash appropriately restrained and being trained so @$&$ @?" and continued to train. Edited October 26, 2012 by hankdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartypaws Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 I also feel like I know Justice and look forward to hearing his achievements , you're just an inspiration and I love his dogapillar outfit. Maybe he shouldn't wear it on play dates though, wouldn't want other dogs to be jealous and rip it off him! My feelings from a few months of huge learning curve are that any approach needs to consider not just the dog and the causes or triggers but the whole situation, especially the handler. The first behaviorist I saw ignored all the background info I had sent, say down and read through some Internet articles, when she saw jake in action she just said PTS or never walk. So then I was recommended to go to K9pro. Yes it's expensive, sort of. By the time I got there Steve had read my background info and started at an appropriate level. My dog is smart and strong and has 5 years of behavior to unlearn and I am a novice at this. So his approach was tailored to take that into account. We can all read all the methods but why you need an expert is the experience they have will allow them to give you a set of excercises that you can do and that will be helpful for your dog. Anyone who says method X is the go, without knowing anything about you, your experience and physical ability, time available to train, your other family members living with the dog and all the other variables that the dog brings to the situation probably is not going to be helpful unless by happy coincidence that method is right for you. Jake has a prong collar, not something I love and not something he would have needed with a more experienced and stronger handler, however Jake got me and it's the right tool to allow him to be managed by me. A good behaviorist doesn't end there though, I have a daily write up that gets mailed to Steve every week and he gives me advice and guidance and this is so so very important. As your dog learns you need to change what you do, without that update you can't progress. So every week poor Steve gets to wade through my day to day and helps me keep on track and sane. So I reckon by now I've probably used up about 6 hours of his time which when you do the maths suddenly the cost of the consult doesn't look so big. I hope I'm not coming across as an ad for Steve I just want people to know what to look for when they go shopping for help. I think this also applies to medicating a dog, some digs will definitely need meds just as some people will and for some it will be situational. So yes in some situations the dog may be able to be managed without but in others it will need meds. You can wish you had more skill, time, larger yard whatever but practically we need to manage our dogs with what we have and not beat ourselves up over our limitations, and definitely learn to ignore those who may try to beat us up about our dogs. I heard a lady who had two off leashers running barking in a park this week say "oh god that dogs here" and I quietly said "yes,yes he is and he is on leash appropriately restrained and being trained so @$&$ @?" and continued to train. It sounds like you have found what you and Jake needed Hankdog.... . I look forward to hearing how you guys go. Good Luck! I also agree that the right professional help for your dog and circumstances is so important. In my case, my dog is not unruly or uncontrollable, walks beautifully on leash, is highly trained and focussed, defers to me when uncomfortable and can be 'managed' through most situations (LAT, redirection, etc).......but he is anxious and uncomfortable in his own skin outside his few comfort zones, and even sometimes inside them! I wanted more for him than to simply be 'managed'. A Vet Behaviourist and medications have been the most appropriate way to reduce his anxiety levels and help him find some peace in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartypaws Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) I find food reliant training dose not work for all breeds unfortunately do they tell you what to use in place of food at all? My dog is not food focused either, but balls and frisbees are the best! We play catch with both. My dog knows that looking at the toy doesn't earn a catch game with the toy, looking at me does :) . Edited October 26, 2012 by Smartypaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We have had some major milestones. From another thread I found out about some"pens" at st Ives show ground. There are 3 adjacent fenced pens that you can let your dog off leash. I've taken the tubster there a few times now, I've had lovely understanding neighbours each time. I keep him on leash and the first time had to run him around quite hard to stop him doing the wild thing but by the third time there were 5 large dogs in the immediately adjacent pen and he focused quite quickly, would take treats and could walk in their direction without losing it. Then this week we went bush walking and ended up at a local park, headed to the bathroom to get him a drink, he had his head under the tap when 2 large dogs came running barking into the park. I blocked the doorway and yelled. Yep owner had simply strolled out her front door and herded her dogs and kids to the park, didn't actually have a leash so had to grab her aggro dogs and hang onto their collars. I let Jake out the bathroom he gave one lunge and then just "clicked" it was as if something in his head fell into place. He pulled up next to me and we started walking up and down , the best heeling he's ever done, paying huge attention to me. All the while the two dogs were only about 10m away and the only time he did anything was one bark when their owner dragged them away. I'm really encouraged by this because Steve thought that a lot of his problems are because a lack of experience means he doesn't have a script for how to handle situations so just resorts to going nuts but it seems that after just a few goes at the pens he was able to transfer his learnt behavior from that situation to this new park, it is a pretty similar fenced area so I think that helped cue his behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Wow... Well I have finally finished reading the whole thread.. Ow I have quite a few more things to try with Ziggy and his focus issues... We are doing much better theses days. I have discovered that he really does have a short attention span, compared to a lot of dogs. We were training for to long.. Our training classes went for 2 hours and he would get to 45 to 60 minutes and lose it.. I would become frustrated and get cross with him, he would stress and it would all go to shite... I talked it over with our trainer and we only stayed for half the lesson. Once I started reading him better and noticing when he had had enough, I would pull him out on a high and we would do some fun stuff.. So our training lessons went back to 45 minutes most times.. I also had to miss his dinner the night before training and no breaky before we go, this makes him food focused (cause he is starving). But half way through the lesson the food focus goes so we switch to the squeaky tennis ball (not so good for other owners), if we have to but I try not to squeak it to much. He can go to the dog park and play with his mates (there is a group that meets up and all the dogs get on great)... His recall is good for up to half an hour, some days less. So once I see his excitement level increase and his recall slips once, I leash him and we leave. He stills gets fun, he learns if he misses my call, that we leave... When we train at home we keep it to 10 minutes a time. We have a few minutes in that time that we play. We still have issues with walking on a loose lead. We have a lupi harness and it seems to be the only thing so far that stops him from literally dragging me around.. He is so strong.. I think we might try a back pack and see how that goes... But I have gained so many ideas on ways to do things from reading this thread. I am lucky with Ziggy, he doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. He just reacts like an idiot when he sees another animal (dog or cat), as he just wants to say hi... He wants to get up close and often a bit to personal and he doesn't seem to learn that is not the done thing... Hence the reason he has a group of doggie friends that he can hang with as they seem to have a good dynamic when they are together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well done Staffyluv !! Yes 2 hours is a long time for some dogs. Stella gets 'over it' in about 10 minutes max. & your right always finish with them wanting more. I train her at home though as she would not settle in a group class. Maybe one day. This thread is great isn't it. So much to learn. Good luck with Ziggy & keep us posted on his progress :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffyluv Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Well done Staffyluv !! Yes 2 hours is a long time for some dogs. Stella gets 'over it' in about 10 minutes max. & your right always finish with them wanting more. I train her at home though as she would not settle in a group class. Maybe one day. This thread is great isn't it. So much to learn. Good luck with Ziggy & keep us posted on his progress :) He has a hard time settling in a class situation because all he wants to do is play with the other dogs.. That is why we now limit his time with other dogs.. It's sad because he really goes nuts for other dogs and it is so nice to have such a super friendly dog after having the last years with Ollie who became reactive after being belted up a coup,e of times... Classes can be stressful enough but I find the days that I am chilled out, he does much better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi everyone! BC - I'm so happy that you're finally having some progress with Stella!!! Xxx Lil update on the squirt and myself. So it's been 2 and a half weeks since his luxating patella surgery and Scooter got to a point where we simply could not touch him. At all. He was off his NUT and so angry all the time. I've had to make some really tough decisions. Firstly, I'm retiring him from performance. He can't handle the stress of group situations. He might have a one day a week private agility lesson once he's healed, but that's it. Secondly, I'm putting him on medication as soon as I talk to my vet about it. I've never been able to admit this was the next step until now. He's currently wearing a Thundershirt almost 24/7 (he tries to bite me when I start to take it off) and is having tryptophan, but it's not enough. Thirdly, it's become really obvious to me he is not like other dogs. People I highly respect in the field agree with me. He cannot cope being treated like a normal dog and reacts to most things. We were pet sitting another toy dog over the last week and he was SOOO much happier while she was here - he was only touched when he could handle it, and napped most of the time. Occasionally he would ask for some attention, but was more than happy to be left alone. It breaks my heart. So we have started looking for a second dog. Scootie will obviously stay with me til old age steals him away, but I ... I love him so much and want to best for him, and if that means leaving him alone most of the time, it's what I'll do I've never cried this much over a dog! Oh and of course he will still be trained, counter-conditioned and eventually start getting walked in very quiet areas again, but I think with a second dog the temptation of pushing Scooter too fast won't present itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartypaws Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Hi everyone! BC - I'm so happy that you're finally having some progress with Stella!!! Xxx Lil update on the squirt and myself. So it's been 2 and a half weeks since his luxating patella surgery and Scooter got to a point where we simply could not touch him. At all. He was off his NUT and so angry all the time. I've had to make some really tough decisions. Firstly, I'm retiring him from performance. He can't handle the stress of group situations. He might have a one day a week private agility lesson once he's healed, but that's it. Secondly, I'm putting him on medication as soon as I talk to my vet about it. I've never been able to admit this was the next step until now. He's currently wearing a Thundershirt almost 24/7 (he tries to bite me when I start to take it off) and is having tryptophan, but it's not enough. Thirdly, it's become really obvious to me he is not like other dogs. People I highly respect in the field agree with me. He cannot cope being treated like a normal dog and reacts to most things. We were pet sitting another toy dog over the last week and he was SOOO much happier while she was here - he was only touched when he could handle it, and napped most of the time. Occasionally he would ask for some attention, but was more than happy to be left alone. It breaks my heart. So we have started looking for a second dog. Scootie will obviously stay with me til old age steals him away, but I ... I love him so much and want to best for him, and if that means leaving him alone most of the time, it's what I'll do I've never cried this much over a dog! Oh and of course he will still be trained, counter-conditioned and eventually start getting walked in very quiet areas again, but I think with a second dog the temptation of pushing Scooter too fast won't present itself. Oh Panzer, My heart goes out to you . But I also want to commend you for doing what you think is right for Scooter. As humans, it is sometimes hard for us to change our expectations and reassess our understandings of what we think dogs should do/need. My dog was also bought as a performance dog, but we have had to be realistic and I have had to let go of my expectations. The degree of anxiety that he suffers from means that he actually doesn't enjoy a walk around our neighbourhood, not matter how much I think he should because other dogs do , and a club or comp environment is so far removed from what he can cope with that he is unlikely to ever compete in that scenario. We have gotten improvements with meds, but our VB has even told us that he will never be 'normal' and will always need management, even on meds. Like you though, we love him, and on meds he is at least happy at home and sweet and affectionate. Good Luck with the second dog too!! Unfortunately for me, my boy was my third dog, my new comp dog after retiring my older two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 (edited) Thanks Panzer :) We are making some progress. Very slow & steady, but progress. Lucky I'm not the 'give up' type Edited October 31, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thanks heaps smartypaws :) It's so great to have this thread where everyone can share experiences and support each other. Well I have some exciting news - Scooter hasn't tried to bite us for a few days now!!! And I've tried to implement some different strategies to varying success. 1) We started Clomicalm yesterday. So far he's eaten the tabs (smooshed into some peanut butter I smeared on his mouth, and a piece of chicken this morningg). His attitude has changed, but I put it down to the other things, since there is no way that it's already working. 2) Still using the Thundershirt to great effect. 3) Got him on his tryptophan again, and it's doing well. It's a very mild dose (the PAW ones) so I'm going to keep using the chews in conjunction with his meds. 4) I'm treating him with the big guns now. Peanut butter, roast BBQ chicken (ugh), pieces of people food. And I'm moderating his food allowance so he's always keen to eat. Since he's almost immobile at the moment due to his healing leg this isn't really that big a deal. I've tossed up worrying whether he's going to become super fussy again or not and have decided right now it's not important. 5) Started warning him that he's going to be picked up with adding a "lift" command. It gives him the option to growl (he's done it once), move away (a few times) or accept it (a surprisingly high amount considering he would attempt to rip your hand off before!). He's even letting Luke do it 70% of the time (but we are willing to take things slowly). 6) I've begun to mark any kind of confident or "happy" behaviour. Ears forward, focus on me without tension, tail wagging etc. THIS is the biggest shocker - he is responding SOOOOO well to it. I'm so proud of my little guy!!!! And I'm still trying to not put too much pressure on him. Say what you will, but I think it's fair to give my dog a choice to interact or not, and by letting him choose, he's choosing to be with me a hell of a lot more. He's sitting right next to me on a mat right now and grooming himself, but also staring at me a fair bit, which he hasn't done for MONTHS. I am so happy and so glad that we're going to put in the hard yards because it looks like it will actually really help him act somewhat normally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 That all sounds so positive, PA - well done to you and Luke, and the Scooter man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 One of the best things Lucy has taught me is to be patient and give her time to decide how she wants to react. The best advice her rescuer gave me was to carry on with life and "ignore" her (not in a negative way, just don't force affection on her, let her ask for it). When I got her she stayed outside 24/7 (even in a massive thunderstorm) and wouldn't eat if I was even 20m away. I slept with the backdoor open and she'd come to visit Fergus at 2am and they'd have a little play session. It took one month for her to even sit near me on the couch, and she trembled the whole time. When I moved, she darted off. She started to sleep indoors on one of the blankets that I'd left leading to my bedroom. Every few night she'd move to a closer blanket and then eventually slept on the bed. Now I sometimes wake with her bum in my face, she is that close. It took six months before she could walk a few metres on a leash, now she loves her walks. She doesn't like being restrained/hugged, but loves a morning scratch behind the ear and is very excited when I get home. She is affectionate in her own way, but very different to Fergus (who is a velcro dog who leans on me all the time). She is a great little worker even though she is a bit slow on the uptake (not dumb, but she missed out on the whole "learning to learn'). She's training in agility and slowly making progress on her weaves. She is such a little workhorse though, such a change from when I got her. It is actually a nice balance having a more independent dog and having a cuddlebum/I want to learn new things now mum/what are you doing type. I don't think I could live with two of the same! You're doing well PA and given that he's been through a lot I'm not surprised he needs some "me" time. I'm sure with time he'll start to settle. He sounds like an interesting candidate for BAT too, given that he isn't enjoying interactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Oh Megan, what a little trooper Lucy is. I didn't know she was a rescue with a lot of issues in the beginning from the sound of it. You have done wonders with her then & you should be very chuffed with yourself I had a rescue for almost 15 years with a tonne of issues as well. He was my heart dog, I just adored him & miss him very much. He was extremely difficult to handle at first. All fear related issues & never socialised. I couldn't get near him at first either, he wouldn't come out form under my house for a whole week till I crawled under there on day 8 & just laid under there with him all the while inching him closer to daylight, while he trembled uncontrollably with fear It took him a long while to trust me & he was very much a one person dog but from that day on he was my velcro boy :laugh: To watch him overcome such adversity & mature into the wonderful boy he became will always be something very,very special to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Panzer Attack! Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Thanks Tassie. That means a lot coming from you!! Megan - I agree re the BAT, Snook has ever so kindly posted me a copy of the book and when he's settled (in a week or two) I will re-read it and start applying. I also have a copy of Click to Calm and am writing a detailed training plan in staggered stages. I won't be walking him anywhere at all until his 6 weeks is up, and then we will start by sitting calmly in the front yard until he is responsive and starting from there. I'm going to get Cosmolo over once he's well enough and nut things out with her too :) I want a happy mix too! Having two Scooters would make me want to throw myself off a cliff, LOL. When we were house sitting Poppy (the toy poodle) it was a hell of a lot easier to moderate MY behaviour in regards to Scooter cos I always had the black fuzzy butt climbing into my lap or performing a trick etc, but now she's gone I'm really lonely! I'm trying my hardest to keep things the same, and it's working alright so far, but gosh I miss having an affectionate dog. Having said that, I'm terrified of making the wrong choice and ending up with another hard dog. Oh well! BC Crazy you poor love, sounds like you've had a rough trot all round with doggies! E-hugs to you. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Staffyluv you read the whole thread.... nothing wrong with your focus, well done. Panzer I feel for you , I forgive Jake all his problems because he is such a lovely cuddler. Such a shame that you have so much to give but maybe he will come round. Hopefully meds will help, interesting that a doggie companion helps him since doggie companions also help many people who suffer from disorders that cause them interpersonal difficulties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESCS Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Panzer, I feel for you too as we have had similar experiences with our first tibbie, Miki. From the time he came to us as a 14 week old pup, he was an anxious edgy fellow who became fear aggressive with dogs. He could also be snappy and grumpy with children when he felt overwhelmed by them. He has come a long way with the help of a wonderful behaviourist, time and patience but we need to manage him carefully and have accepted that this will likely be forever. Like Scooter, Miki isn't an overly affectionate dog. He has moments when he enjoys interacting with us (not keen on cuddles or sitting on laps) but is generally quite aloof and standoffish preferring his own company and guarding our home. We had plans to do agility with him but while we managed to get to the required level of obedience for agility, he just did not have the temperament for it. He is, howver, a great guard/watch dog, loyal and devoted to us in his own way. It was a difficult journey for us to appreciate him for all the wonderful traits he has while dealing with our frustration and disappointment that he wasn't the dog we expected. We have wanted a dog for so many years but waited until our children were a little older and more independent so we had time to devote to our dog. We had all this love stored up to give to our pup and it completely threw me when we had a tibbie who was an independent spirit who just wasn't too interested in giving or receiving affection. I honestly felt at times we had a snappy, wound up alligator disguised in a sweet looking tibbie body! When Miki's issues with other dogs had settled somewhat and we had a handle on how to manage him, we decided we wanted a second dog ( deep down we still really wanted an 'affectionate' dog) but was very apprehensive that we would end up with another with Miki's personality. Two Miki's would have been a challenge too much for me! I got in touch with Mita who has been an absolute treasure and great support for us. She suggested a well socialised adult female tibbie (retired show dog) and found us our beautiful girl, Helen (from a wonderful breeder). She is everything we imagined and hoped for.She is loving, incredibly affectionate, enjoys cuddles, steady as a rock(gentle and well behaved with humans and dogs) and gets on like a house on fire with Miki. She is my little shadow! Miki now has a permanent four legged friend to play with and we have a dog that we can cuddle to our hearts content. Apologies for the long post but I just wanted to say that getting a second dog (another tibbie) was the best thing that we ever did. It may not be the right answer for others but it worked out well for us. Our two tibbies are very different but we love them both. I hope you find the dog of your dreams who will relish all the love you have to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Panzor Attack, thanks for your thoughts. Very kind of you :) Glad to hear your Scooter is improving on meds. I didn't realise he doesn't like to be cuddled as such. That must hurt I would think. I feel for you. Us humans do tend to take things far to personally though when I really don't think Scooter actually means it that way. If that makes sense. I must admit I would take it to heart though. I have had my share of difficult dogs but I am blessed to have Sonny , my 4 year old bc boy who is just divine. I haven't had much of a chance to talk of him as miss Stella seems to take up most of time. He is a very placid fella. Loves to play ALL of the time. Also is an excellent pal & role model for Stella. They just adore each other. Stella is much more of a cuddle pot though. While Sonny is effectionate, Stella is gushingly so. They are all so very different & all have there own quirky little ways about them. Edited November 2, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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