Personal Protection Gsds

[Aidan3]

Gosh, now I'm feeling sentimental. Kruger was so handsome, very similar looks to my Von Forell girl.

Sabella, so dearly missed.

[Nekhbet]

Krueger came from Neville Williams here in Melbourne (von Kaiserhof) Got him as a rescue , thin as a rake, as he was supposedly a crap working dog

excuse the boy bits he was swollen from his desexing as they couldnt find one retained testicle and sliced everywhere.

[Bobby_The_Samoyed]

I would definetely want a pup. To me it is important to grow together, as it strengthens the bond between dog and handler thus forming a better working team later on. Ofcourse buying a pup is always a gamble. But its a risk im willing to take. I want to be involved in everything, and go through the whole learning curve with my dog.

Btw Nekhbet, your dogs are all beautiful

[Kavik]

This is my boy before his allergies played up. Would make a hopeless protection dog :laugh:

[lovemesideways]

Lovemesideways, he is amazing !!!! Congrats on such a beautiful pup. What are your plans for him? More sports or PP? Or both?

:D thanks, hes my baby <3!

Plans are Obedience, Rally, Possibly Tracking, Agility (thought not sure if we would compete). I would love to do Schutzhund but the lack of clubs makes that difficult. At the moment its just all about building his drive :) If you have the drive you can do anything :D

Nekhbet: <3 Your boy was Beautiful!

Edited January 13, 2012 by lovemesideways

[pepe001]

Loved my Von Forell boy who was PTS only a few months ago. I will be getting another pup from Chris but need to put some more time between the old and the new so I can give a new puppy all the love he deserves. I found Chris and those at VF to be very informative and interested in my boy for many years after I purchased him. He did a little schutzhund but he was mainly a family pet and family guard dog - he was never challenged but I'm sure he would have fought for us if it was needed. He was very solid mentally. He would go into prey drive quickly but also quickly relax when the threat etc was over.

[Yesmaam]

Go to your nearest Schutzhund club, meet as many dogs as you can. If this is your first, an adult dog might be a far less steep learning curve.

Aidan2, there is a difference between a dog bred for shutzhund, and a dog for PP. Sport dogs have very high prey drives. While for PP, you would be looking at a dog with moderate prey drive but also civilian drive. The ratio most PP handlers look for is a ratio of 60/40 with the 60% being civilian drive. Ofcourse the ratio differs between handlers but you get my idea. If you dont agree i would love to hear your opinion on this issue :)

Robbie

Not really, I have no idea what you mean... My "sport" dog has plenty of prey and "civil" drive (as you call it). I have never heard of a ratio when referring to drives, I didn't know you could breed ratio/ numbers into dogs.

You mentioned Czech dogs - The Czech dogs here in OZ are Schutzhund titled dogs or have been bred from Schutzhund titled dogs......... Sport dogs..........

[Yesmaam]

Thanks alot for the links Jeff. Atm i want to start looking at potential puppies, but i got no clue where to start . I want a breeder that questions me about everything i want to do with the puppy, so they can match the puppy to my needs. I dont want to go to a breeder, and have them say 'Oh pick whatever you want', pay, and walk out of there. I am prepared to do the hard yards, but i will need the correct pup to work with. Especially that now i am doing Policing, and my aim is to get into the Dog Unit someday :) So i would love a pup i can work with and get to know everything about these lines of amazing dogs.

Thats funny. You should speak to Dave Wright at the NSWPOL dog squad. He will tell you that their biggest success was as soon as they started using dogs from Schutzhund background.

[Nekhbet]

If you have the drive you can do anything

true ... but over conditioning the dog into prey drive can also make it incredibly difficult to flick some animals into a more defensive drive because they keep being such nanas over equipment. Prey drive is good for prey based work like Sch, if you want to do more with the animal or go outside set patterns it may not be necessarily the bees knees.

My young mal has prey coming out of her ears, in fact the last thing I wanted to do was keep building it. My theory on not letting her play tug with us much paid off though, she wasnt equipment conditioned and flicked out of prey VERY quickly *cheer* Working pups are fun I can't wait to get a couple more, home bred will be even better ;)

He will tell you that their biggest success was as soon as they started using dogs from Schutzhund background.

In comparison to what? Showline shepherds before or what were they using? There really is not that broad a choice of backgrounds in Australia when it comes to shepherds.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Nekhbet

[lovemesideways]

If you have the drive you can do anything

true ... but over conditioning the dog into prey drive can also make it incredibly difficult to flick some animals into a more defensive drive because they keep being such nanas over equipment. Prey drive is good for prey based work like Sch, if you want to do more with the animal or go outside set patterns it may not be necessarily the bees knees.

My young mal has prey coming out of her ears, in fact the last thing I wanted to do was keep building it. My theory on not letting her play tug with us much paid off though, she wasnt equipment conditioned and flicked out of prey VERY quickly *cheer* Working pups are fun I can't wait to get a couple more, home bred will be even better ;)

<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc11%2FMali_nut%2Fsprogdog.mp4">

:laugh: "Ready Spaghetti?" love it. :laugh: (Should use youtube for videos, my computer hates photobucket, they have a very angry relationship. Lol)

I didn't mean just prey drive. I meant the drive to work. If you have a dog with drive (any sort of drive mind you, food, play, pack, prey etc.) and engagement, then the possibilities are much wider not to mention easier to attain in my (limited) experience.

Not really sure what you mean by a defensive drive. Would that be for a protection dog? Its hard to keep track sometimes when every trainer likes to use a different term .

Working pups are definitely fun... though totally crazy and life controlling :laugh:.

[Kavik]

Nekhbet

So for more serious work do you want a dog with less prey than for a sport dog? Or would you just do the training differently?

[huski]

What are you planning to do with your young Mal, Nekh?

[Nekhbet]

I wouldnt say less prey necessarily. It just needs to be balanced out with a couple more abilities and not be the predominant drive that overrides all others. If you keep pulling out a sleeve and all the dog wants is that, well you're not going to get far in protection because the dog is going to simply be going 'hey where's my tug toy!?'. You want a dog that spits the sleeve and reengages the decoy if they're still within range, a prey obsessed dog is just going to be lying there munching away on the sleeve the decoy slipped, grinning and derping 'got my toy! got my toy! toy toy toy!' not really effective in some situations :laugh:

"Ready Spaghetti?" love it.

don't worry that video has already come back to bite me ... I'm losing my tough image aren't I I love my working dogs but I'm still a big sap at heart aren't I ;)

What are you planning to do with your young Mal, Nekh?

I will make a full statement on that when I find out if I have a prolapsed disc in my back or not this evening it's kind of going to dictate how far we get in at least the near future. She's already tracking, we're going to start SD as well. Still have to get her hip and elbow scored for end of this year too. OH wanted to make her a SAR dog but the org down here in vic said she was the wrong breed and knocked him back O_o

Edited January 13, 2012 by Nekhbet

[Erny]

Civilian Drive?

Is this a defence drive in response to the perception of a threat from a person?

If not, would someone mind explaining that to me please?

Civil drive basically relates to the dog being able to focus on the man and not the equipment. Relates to defence/fight drive.

Thanks Jeff.

And Happy New Year to you :).

[lovemesideways]

"Ready Spaghetti?" love it.

don't worry that video has already come back to bite me ... I'm losing my tough image aren't I I love my working dogs but I'm still a big sap at heart aren't I ;)

:laugh: I think your image is forever ruined.

[Kavik]

I wouldnt say less prey necessarily. It just needs to be balanced out with a couple more abilities and not be the predominant drive that overrides all others. If you keep pulling out a sleeve and all the dog wants is that, well you're not going to get far in protection because the dog is going to simply be going 'hey where's my tug toy!?'. You want a dog that spits the sleeve and reengages the decoy if they're still within range, a prey obsessed dog is just going to be lying there munching away on the sleeve the decoy slipped, grinning and derping 'got my toy! got my toy! toy toy toy!' not really effective in some situations :laugh:

"Ready Spaghetti?" love it.

don't worry that video has already come back to bite me ... I'm losing my tough image aren't I I love my working dogs but I'm still a big sap at heart aren't I ;)

What are you planning to do with your young Mal, Nekh?

I will make a full statement on that when I find out if I have a prolapsed disc in my back or not this evening it's kind of going to dictate how far we get in at least the near future. She's already tracking, we're going to start SD as well. Still have to get her hip and elbow scored for end of this year too. OH wanted to make her a SAR dog but the org down here in vic said she was the wrong breed and knocked him back O_o

So you would balance the prey with civil work?

I can't believe SAR knocked you guys back based on breed

[PAX]

http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/Mali_nut/?action=view&current=sprogdog.mp4

Whats going on with her ears? And why are you playing fetch games on rocks and wire?

[Nekhbet]

Whats going on with her ears? And why are you playing fetch games on rocks and wire?

They refused to stand up so she shall forever be a Womble :p

That was under a roadbridge, she's learning sure footing and to search for things in awkward situations as well as novel sounds (reverberating traffic noise of passing cars, echos etc). She was over 12 months when we did this and it wasnt for long. She comes from a long line of mountain goat Malinois :laugh: if there is something to clamber over she will. Her mother managed to make it up onto the roof of the breeders house one day O_o If I didnt believe she was capable of doing it safely I wouldn't have her doing it.

I can't believe SAR knocked you guys back based on breed

yup OH was told she was unsuitable because they prefer things like labs/border collies and they want 12 month old dogs with no prior training and no letting them play with toys ... can you imagine a working mal with no toys or training? He got really upset as he had his heart set on it but I told him we'll just do our own thing.

Civil work is high stress. You want a dog to willingly go in and engage a person then 'fight' with them until they're subdued. Can you imagine a dog who's only aim in life is to stare down everyone it sees and wants to bring them down? Not my cup of tea.

[Bobby_The_Samoyed]

Go to your nearest Schutzhund club, meet as many dogs as you can. If this is your first, an adult dog might be a far less steep learning curve.

Aidan2, there is a difference between a dog bred for shutzhund, and a dog for PP. Sport dogs have very high prey drives. While for PP, you would be looking at a dog with moderate prey drive but also civilian drive. The ratio most PP handlers look for is a ratio of 60/40 with the 60% being civilian drive. Ofcourse the ratio differs between handlers but you get my idea. If you dont agree i would love to hear your opinion on this issue :)

Robbie

Not really, I have no idea what you mean... My "sport" dog has plenty of prey and "civil" drive (as you call it). I have never heard of a ratio when referring to drives, I didn't know you could breed ratio/ numbers into dogs.

You mentioned Czech dogs - The Czech dogs here in OZ are Schutzhund titled dogs or have been bred from Schutzhund titled dogs......... Sport dogs..........

I can point you in the direction of where Hans ( co founder of the alpine/jinopo line) measured drives in percentage. With many other top trainers using percentage to describe the level of drive. Hans gave a 50/50. Where these dogs titled here in Oz? You can get a SchH 3 dog, awesome at doing the circuit he has been taught to do a thousand times. Bring him into a real life situation, where some guy is mugging you on the street thats where i would want the dog to react. The SchH test was originally brought out to show the strengths of the dog. And im sure on a world class level those titles still represent exactly that.

These dogs are titled...No thanks you can have them.

These are dogs that had to pass a test to be in the ring, the decoy did not even put real pressure on the dogs. That is the bitework of a major conformation show in Germany and ALL these dogs have SchH titles

Edited January 13, 2012 by Bobby_The_Samoyed

[lovemesideways]

Go to your nearest Schutzhund club, meet as many dogs as you can. If this is your first, an adult dog might be a far less steep learning curve.

Aidan2, there is a difference between a dog bred for shutzhund, and a dog for PP. Sport dogs have very high prey drives. While for PP, you would be looking at a dog with moderate prey drive but also civilian drive. The ratio most PP handlers look for is a ratio of 60/40 with the 60% being civilian drive. Ofcourse the ratio differs between handlers but you get my idea. If you dont agree i would love to hear your opinion on this issue :)

Robbie

Not really, I have no idea what you mean... My "sport" dog has plenty of prey and "civil" drive (as you call it). I have never heard of a ratio when referring to drives, I didn't know you could breed ratio/ numbers into dogs.

You mentioned Czech dogs - The Czech dogs here in OZ are Schutzhund titled dogs or have been bred from Schutzhund titled dogs......... Sport dogs..........

I can point you in the direction of where Hans ( co founder of the alpine/jinopo line) measured drives in percentage. With many other top trainers using percentage to describe the level of drive. Hans gave a 50/50. Where these dogs titled here in Oz? You can get a SchH 3 dog, awesome at doing the circuit he has been taught to do a thousand times. Bring him into a real life situation, where some guy is mugging you on the street thats where i would want the dog to react. The SchH test was originally brought out to show the strengths of the dog. And im sure on a world class level those titles still represent exactly that.

These dogs are titled...No thanks you can have them.

These are dogs that had to pass a test to be in the ring, the decoy did not even put real pressure on the dogs. That is the bitework of a major conformation show in Germany and ALL these dogs have SchH titles

OMG those dogs!!!! That work was just incredibly shoddy, the majority of them freaked out when the decoy touched them, then flinched at the approaching judge.

Just wow.