cass_06 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 What is your opinion on matings? What do you think is too close? I have half brother and sister which i would like to mate as i believe they would compliment each other well. They have both same sire but there dams are different but related, the dog dam is the bitches mother daughter. I am thinking it could be too close but would love to hear opinions on this topic Thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have a half brother sister and she turned out just fine :). I myself would be hesitant to do it as I am yet to really get to know what is behind all the dogs in the bloodlines, however if you have a good idea what you are dealing it might be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi Cass, I would do it. Sorry people you may not understand but Cass will. I mated Gaby to Nero and as you know they are both by Wyatt. There is a link between their dams. If you are at Durack on the 4th come and see the pups they will amaze you with the quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cass_06 Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi Cass, I would do it. Sorry people you may not understand but Cass will. I mated Gaby to Nero and as you know they are both by Wyatt. There is a link between their dams. If you are at Durack on the 4th come and see the pups they will amaze you with the quality. I heard the pups are quite nice. I won't be at durack on 4th but do look forward to seeing them soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 What is your opinion on matings? What do you think is too close? I have half brother and sister which i would like to mate as i believe they would compliment each other well. They have both same sire but there dams are different but related, the dog dam is the bitches mother daughter. I am thinking it could be too close but would love to hear opinions on this topic Thanks in advance IMO that is too close. I think any half brother sister is too close but if they share a sire and the dams are complete outcrosses it can work. With the dams that close, I would advise against it. These two are actually three quarter brother sister. You should never inbreed more than one dog at a time and here you would be inbreeding to the sire and the bitches dam. Inbred matings like that may not produce a problem in the resulting litter but can cause problems down the line for the breed by narrowing the gene pool and increasing the percentage of dogs carrying a faulty gene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Depends how much info you have of what is behind them. If the only info you have is how many champs rather than where the itchy dogs are, what scores were there etc its not something Id do. But if I did know the lines pretty well and was confident there was a reasonable limited risk of something rotten turning up I would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) If the whole lineage is derived, purebred, from a handful of dogs, you have no choice but to inbreed or outcross to another breed. I wouldn't breed half-brother/sister out of respect for those concerned about genetic diversity . . . in the long term diversity is a valid concern, though most of the time the pups from a close mating will be ok. The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough. p.s. you state: "the dog dam is the bitches mother daughter." Please translate. Edited January 13, 2012 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I have a bitch from a half brother sister mating and am very happy with her (and all her heath test results which include hips, elbows, patellas, eyes, thyroid and DNA for degenerative myelopathy). As mentioned it all depends on the knowledge of what is behind what you are breeding. Note though that linebreeding can in fact increase genetic diversity as linebreeding creates different genetic 'pools' within a breed that you can then outcross to from time to time. Continued outcrossing creates a level playing field where in the end everyone in the population is relatively related (moreso than if you linebreed) and you have nowhere to go if you are trying to isolate (to either add or remove) particular genes or traits. Sandgruuber, re not paying a stud fee - no the breeder of my bitch didn't. But then she has imported around 7 dogs from various countries overseas, some of which have contributed at various times to this bitches pedigree, so I do rather resent the implication that linebreeding is the 'easy way out'. Edited January 14, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) If the whole lineage is derived, purebred, from a handful of dogs, you have no choice but to inbreed or outcross to another breed.I wouldn't breed half-brother/sister out of respect for those concerned about genetic diversity . . . in the long term diversity is a valid concern, though most of the time the pups from a close mating will be ok. The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough. p.s. you state: "the dog dam is the bitches mother daughter." Please translate. I take it you mean "line" and not "breed" ??? The males dogs dam is a neice of the female dogs dam...or is it a half sister??? Edited January 14, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRUVIC Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Does this contravene the new regulations re breeding (line-breeding) which came into force as at July 2011 I believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 p.s. you state: "the dog dam is the bitches mother daughter." Please translate. The bitch's dam is granddam to the dog as well. That makes the mating aunt to nephew on the bitch side and half brother sister on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 If the whole lineage is derived, purebred, from a handful of dogs, you have no choice but to inbreed or outcross to another breed. I wouldn't breed half-brother/sister out of respect for those concerned about genetic diversity . . . in the long term diversity is a valid concern, though most of the time the pups from a close mating will be ok. The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough. p.s. you state: "the dog dam is the bitches mother daughter." Please translate. sandgrubber I object to the reference of yours... :) [The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough.] The people that usually line breed do so very selectively and many times for a reason. Many of us that line breed are experienced breeders and have researched the lines. In fact, some times we know the lines so well we don't even have to research them. As to the reference ....without paying a stud fee.........Why would you believe people don't pay stud fees ? I most certainly have, a four figure one at that. sandgrugger always remember ...nothing ventured....nothing gained. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Trip Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 IMO that is too close. I think any half brother sister is too close but if they share a sire and the dams are complete outcrosses it can work. With the dams that close, I would advise against it. These two are actually three quarter brother sister. You should never inbreed more than one dog at a time and here you would be inbreeding to the sire and the bitches dam. Inbred matings like that may not produce a problem in the resulting litter but can cause problems down the line for the breed by narrowing the gene pool and increasing the percentage of dogs carrying a faulty gene. This. What you are proposing is much closer than half brother - half sister. There is a good chance you will create future problems for the dogs and yourself and personally I would never do this mating. A tried and true old adage to remember is "close but not too close". JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 what are the breeding plans for the resulting offspring? I think you also need to look at what happens with the next generation. What your options are etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 sandgrubber I object to the reference of yours... :) [The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough.] The people that usually line breed do so very selectively and many times for a reason. Many of us that line breed are experienced breeders and have researched the lines. In fact, some times we know the lines so well we don't even have to research them. As to the reference ....without paying a stud fee.........Why would you believe people don't pay stud fees ? I most certainly have, a four figure one at that. sandgrugger always remember ...nothing ventured....nothing gained. :) I'd agree that articulate breeders who line breed do so selectively, and for a reason. But historically, I think you'll find a lot of breeders (not the top eschelon) used the nearest acceptable dog . . . Even now, when it's relatively easy/cheap to travel or do AI, I suspect that there are quite a few people who can't resist the temptation to use one of the beautiful dogs that came out their lines over his half sister . . . or equivalent combinations. I'd be very surprised if close line breeding wasn't widespread on puppy farms. I'd love to see someone go through pedigree registrations and prove me wrong. Meanwhile, I think it's good to keep the bar high . . . and to make it shameful to line breed for convenience and cost reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 sandgrubber I object to the reference of yours... :) [The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough.] The people that usually line breed do so very selectively and many times for a reason. Many of us that line breed are experienced breeders and have researched the lines. In fact, some times we know the lines so well we don't even have to research them. As to the reference ....without paying a stud fee.........Why would you believe people don't pay stud fees ? I most certainly have, a four figure one at that. sandgrugger always remember ...nothing ventured....nothing gained. :) I'd agree that articulate breeders who line breed do so selectively, and for a reason. But historically, I think you'll find a lot of breeders (not the top eschelon) used the nearest acceptable dog . . . Even now, when it's relatively easy/cheap to travel or do AI, I suspect that there are quite a few people who can't resist the temptation to use one of the beautiful dogs that came out their lines over his half sister . . . or equivalent combinations. I'd be very surprised if close line breeding wasn't widespread on puppy farms. I'd love to see someone go through pedigree registrations and prove me wrong. Meanwhile, I think it's good to keep the bar high . . . and to make it shameful to line breed for convenience and cost reduction. That's a fair assumption. When the new breeding regulations came into force, that is the ones that the governing bodies said they would not register with out due consultation in some cases. It was given as a percentage as to the amount of in breeding done and it was very low. Can anyone remember what the percentage was ?. I have some memory that it was done with a Professor at one of the Sydney University's ???. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 sandgrubber I object to the reference of yours... :) [The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough.] The people that usually line breed do so very selectively and many times for a reason. Many of us that line breed are experienced breeders and have researched the lines. In fact, some times we know the lines so well we don't even have to research them. As to the reference ....without paying a stud fee.........Why would you believe people don't pay stud fees ? I most certainly have, a four figure one at that. sandgrugger always remember ...nothing ventured....nothing gained. :) I'd agree that articulate breeders who line breed do so selectively, and for a reason. But historically, I think you'll find a lot of breeders (not the top eschelon) used the nearest acceptable dog . . . Even now, when it's relatively easy/cheap to travel or do AI, I suspect that there are quite a few people who can't resist the temptation to use one of the beautiful dogs that came out their lines over his half sister . . . or equivalent combinations. I'd be very surprised if close line breeding wasn't widespread on puppy farms. I'd love to see someone go through pedigree registrations and prove me wrong. Meanwhile, I think it's good to keep the bar high . . . and to make it shameful to line breed for convenience and cost reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzapug Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Too close IMHO...on paper the only outcrossed line will be the dogs mothers sire..thats if he is an outcross...or is he related to the granddam as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 sandgrubber I object to the reference of yours... :) [The most common reason for this breeding is the dog is nearby and with someone you know. . . maybe even a dog you can use without paying stud fee. And you know the dog and he looks like your kind of dog . . . ie, kennel blindness. That's not good enough.] The people that usually line breed do so very selectively and many times for a reason. Many of us that line breed are experienced breeders and have researched the lines. In fact, some times we know the lines so well we don't even have to research them. As to the reference ....without paying a stud fee.........Why would you believe people don't pay stud fees ? I most certainly have, a four figure one at that. sandgrugger always remember ...nothing ventured....nothing gained. :) I'd agree that articulate breeders who line breed do so selectively, and for a reason. But historically, I think you'll find a lot of breeders (not the top eschelon) used the nearest acceptable dog . . . Even now, when it's relatively easy/cheap to travel or do AI, I suspect that there are quite a few people who can't resist the temptation to use one of the beautiful dogs that came out their lines over his half sister . . . or equivalent combinations. I'd be very surprised if close line breeding wasn't widespread on puppy farms. I'd love to see someone go through pedigree registrations and prove me wrong. Meanwhile, I think it's good to keep the bar high . . . and to make it shameful to line breed for convenience and cost reduction. Someone has gone through the pedigrees and proved you wrong - Professor Clare Wade form Sydney Uni did a study on our pedigrees and she said very few of us in breed. When I spoke with her numerous times she told me the issues with purebred dogs were not because they were in bred but caused by what they are selected for. If you have a breed with genetic issues and you find a couple which don't have it whether or not they are related isn't part of the issue. It depends on how much you know of whats in the lines,what your goals are, what your choices are. If I have to choose a good dog with great health over one which isn't just because its not as closely related it makes little sense. I know whats in my lines ,what to watch out for and what to take out - the minute I bring in an unknown out cross I have to start again. Big deal of all of this is that those who want to carry on about genetic diversity and how bad in breeding is don't seem to get that we have to consider future generations and what the dogs we are breeding bring to the gene pool They want us all to act like cross breeders - only concerned about this generation - how do you know what may turn up as hidden recessives if you just outcross for the sake of breeding further away ? Assuming you are selecting for things conducive to good health the only risk you run is in breeding depression usually obvious with diminishing litter sizes which is easily fixed with an out cross with someone else's dog which is in bred to other dogs. If the only reason you are going to stay away from a mating is how closely related they are you are breeding with luck rather than science. We are purebred breeders - in breeding is what we do - because its is the only way to predict EVERYTHING ,characteristics, health, temperament .its about what you select for not how related they are. If you have the knowledge you are more likely to get good stuff than bad. In breeding doesn't create bad genes it just show where they are. Its a tool that can be used to do some great stuff and eliminate problems if the breeder has the info they need to be confident they have a good shot at improving the quality of life for future generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Someone has gone through the pedigrees and proved you wrong - Professor Clare Wade form Sydney Uni did a study on our pedigrees and she said very few of us in breed. . . . If I have to choose a good dog with great health over one which isn't just because its not as closely related it makes little sense. I didn't say inbreeding is common. I said the most common reason for inbreeding was convenience. I cannot prove this, and I don't think anyone can disprove it. I I know whats in my lines ,what to watch out for and what to take out - the minute I bring in an unknown out cross I have to start again. Big deal of all of this is that those who want to carry on about genetic diversity and how bad in breeding is don't seem to get that we have to consider future generations and what the dogs we are breeding bring to the gene pool They want us all to act like cross breeders - only concerned about this generation - how do you know what may turn up as hidden recessives if you just outcross for the sake of breeding further away ? Assuming you are selecting for things conducive to good health the only risk you run is in breeding depression usually obvious with diminishing litter sizes which is easily fixed with an out cross with someone else's dog which is in bred to other dogs. If the only reason you are going to stay away from a mating is how closely related they are you are breeding with luck rather than science. We are purebred breeders - in breeding is what we do - because its is the only way to predict EVERYTHING ,characteristics, health, temperament .its about what you select for not how related they are. If you have the knowledge you are more likely to get good stuff than bad. In breeding doesn't create bad genes it just show where they are. Its a tool that can be used to do some great stuff and eliminate problems if the breeder has the info they need to be confident they have a good shot at improving the quality of life for future generations. I don't know the truth about inbreeding. It's clear that, carefully done, it can produce healthy, uniform lines. Also clear that, taken to the extreme, homozygousity can be ruinous to health. Eg, lab mice: http://www.astraean....d-lab-mice.html and the Isle Royale wolf population in Lake Michigan (island population apparently founded by two males and one female around 1950) http://www.astraean....and-wolves.html To me, the interesting question is "how has low diversity affected breeds that were founded by very small populations". I think the jury is still out on this. But in such cases, even if the five generation COI looks good, the COI that would be derived by going all the way back to the founding of the breed would be very high. Here the problem isn't matings too close on the family tree, but the difficulty of finding any way to avoid breeding dogs who are genetically very closely related. I'm sure you are careful about inbreeding, and use it, as you say, as a way to predict EVERYTHING. But for an inexperienced breeder, who has not had a decade or two to observe the lines they are working with and done a lot of reading . . . and who is not in a position to deal with the consequences of an inbred litter that turns out to show serious hidden recessives . . . I think it's a very bad idea to use 'the boy next door' in a brother/sister of son/mother mating, even if he is a handsome devil and seems healthy (at, say, 4 years of age). Edited January 15, 2012 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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