GoldenGirl85 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 While i agree that that is what is on the website i think that it just cannot be right. If my mum is blonde but i have brown hair i still carry the gene for blonde and my kids could have it. Gibbs has to carry the yellow gene as he is yellow so is dad, he must carry choc too if mum was choc. His brothers are black so he has to have the black gene in him some where as his littermates are black but have the same genes? Am i wrong? I cannot say you are "wrong", I don't know enough myself. All I can say is black is not a gene that is CARRIED, sort of like it is there by default and the other genes play a matchmaking game of masking that gene, or not. That other site HERE explains how what each parent passes on can produce the black. If you ask me to put it in plain English, well, I can't Edit to highlight a sentence I wrote, I think the lightbulb finally went off for myself as to how the blacks come about of course I could be wrong, but it made sense in my head! :p Im just wondering if Gibbs could technically only carry choc and yellow , so therefore with what you are saying he wouldnt carry black at all but he could produce black coz they all carry black?? Very frikken confusing!! Nothing technical about it, he can't carry black, I'm starting to get it, I'm still not sure how black comes out of a pigmented dog, with black being dominant it can't be carried, a dominant gene WILL be expressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
**Super_Dogs** Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Very frikken confusing!! I agree :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapua Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Don't rule out yellows that don't carry choc for Heeni's new man, Tapua Yah but I want a chocy baby for me But yellows are best :p Hey I want a good Yellow - which is princess perfect Daphne , a good Black - Princess beautiful Heeni te Anna and god help me a scrumptious Chocy girl - ah one can only hope - and probably too much to ask :nahnah: Edited January 23, 2012 by Tapua Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Just a question was Gibb's litter mates black & yellow? That would make Gibby a yellow carrying chocolate me thinks ? Yes we established Gibbs is a yellow carrying choc I think! Nothing technical about it, he can't carry black, I'm starting to get it, I'm still not sure how black comes out of a pigmented dog, with black being dominant it can't be carried, a dominant gene WILL be expressed Black is dominant in that it is always there? but is masked by the others with the right combination to do so.... Hey I want a good Yellow - which is princess perfect Daphne , a good Black - Princess beautiful Heeni te Anna and god help me a scrumptious Chocy girl - ah one can only hope. :nahnah: The perfect yellow is my Ruby :nahnah: but I think that is biased mummy talking ;) I'm after more perfect Lab babies.... that is in my future :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapua Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Just a question was Gibb's litter mates black & yellow? That would make Gibby a yellow carrying chocolate me thinks ? Yes we established Gibbs is a yellow carrying choc I think! Nothing technical about it, he can't carry black, I'm starting to get it, I'm still not sure how black comes out of a pigmented dog, with black being dominant it can't be carried, a dominant gene WILL be expressed Black is dominant in that it is always there? but is masked by the others with the right combination to do so.... Hey I want a good Yellow - which is princess perfect Daphne , a good Black - Princess beautiful Heeni te Anna and god help me a scrumptious Chocy girl - ah one can only hope. :nahnah: The perfect yellow is my Ruby :nahnah: but I think that is biased mummy talking ;) I'm after more perfect Lab babies.... that is in my future :) lol well Princess Ruby can stay on the 'A' list then Yeah Ruby lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So does a choc ever have black pigment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So does a choc ever have black pigment? To my knowledge, no. They have liver pigment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So does a choc ever have black pigment? To my knowledge, no. They have liver pigment. Ok, so a NBP yellow, are they liver pigmented? or no pigment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 GG85, more info on the black phenomena :) Epistasis Epistasis, as defined by iGenetics: a Molecular Approach, “is the interaction between two or more genes that controls a single phenotype. For instance, the expression of a gene at one locus can mask or suppress the expression of a gene at another locus.” (733). Labrador coat colour inheritance, the E (expression allele) masking B (pigment allele) is an example of recessive epistasis, where an individual homozygous for E (ee) masks the pigment coded for by the B allele, resulting in a yellow dog, despite the genotype at the B locus (BB, Bb, or bb). The homozygous e allele does not completely restrict the expression of the B locus alleles as they are responsible for the pigmentation of the iris, lips, nose, and eye rims of a yellow dog (Templeton 1997). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So does a choc ever have black pigment? To my knowledge, no. They have liver pigment. Ok, so a NBP yellow, are they liver pigmented? or no pigment? Liver.... I think....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You guys are confusing yourself because you are forgetting there are two genes First gene (E) controls if the dog is yellow (ee) or black/brown (E-). Once you have a dog who is E- the second gene (B) THEN controls if the dog is brown (bb) or black (B-). If the dog is yellow it doesn't matter what the B gene is because it only works on dogs that are (E-). So a yellow dog can "hide" both black and brown, and a brown or black dog can "hide" yellow. A brown dog cannot hide black, but if the other partner is (B-) then that will over ride the recessive to produce black. In all cases the "hidden" gene can only be expressed if the other partner has the correct genotype to bring it to the fore. So in Gibbs case he did not get the black siblings from his brown mother but from his yellow father who is most likely BB since he did not produce any brown pups :) You guys got it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You guys are confusing yourself because you are forgetting there are two genes First gene (E) controls if the dog is yellow (ee) or black/brown (E-). Once you have a dog who is E- the second gene (B) THEN controls if the dog is brown (bb) or black (B-). If the dog is yellow it doesn't matter what the B gene is because it only works on dogs that are (E-). So a yellow dog can "hide" both black and brown, and a brown or black dog can "hide" yellow. A brown dog cannot hide black, but if the other partner is (B-) then that will over ride the recessive to produce black. In all cases the "hidden" gene can only be expressed if the other partner has the correct genotype to bring it to the fore. So in Gibbs case he did not get the black siblings from his brown mother but from his yellow father who is most likely BB since he did not produce any brown pups :) You guys got it now? mirawee!! Well explained :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 While i agree that that is what is on the website i think that it just cannot be right. If my mum is blonde but i have brown hair i still carry the gene for blonde and my kids could have it. Gibbs has to carry the yellow gene as he is yellow so is dad, he must carry choc too if mum was choc. His brothers are black so he has to have the black gene in him some where as his littermates are black but have the same genes? Am i wrong? I cannot say you are "wrong", I don't know enough myself. All I can say is black is not a gene that is CARRIED, sort of like it is there by default and the other genes play a matchmaking game of masking that gene, or not. That other site HERE explains how what each parent passes on can produce the black. If you ask me to put it in plain English, well, I can't Edit to highlight a sentence I wrote, I think the lightbulb finally went off for myself as to how the blacks come about of course I could be wrong, but it made sense in my head! :p Im just wondering if Gibbs could technically only carry choc and yellow , so therefore with what you are saying he wouldnt carry black at all but he could produce black coz they all carry black?? Very frikken confusing!! Just a question was Gibb's litter mates black & yellow? That would make Gibby a yellow carrying chocolate me thinks ? Yup only black and yellow babies :) i would never breed with him its just a theoretical question as his mum was choc dad yellow from yellow only parents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You guys are confusing yourself because you are forgetting there are two genes First gene (E) controls if the dog is yellow (ee) or black/brown (E-). Once you have a dog who is E- the second gene (B) THEN controls if the dog is brown (bb) or black (B-). If the dog is yellow it doesn't matter what the B gene is because it only works on dogs that are (E-). So a yellow dog can "hide" both black and brown, and a brown or black dog can "hide" yellow. A brown dog cannot hide black, but if the other partner is (B-) then that will over ride the recessive to produce black. In all cases the "hidden" gene can only be expressed if the other partner has the correct genotype to bring it to the fore. So in Gibbs case he did not get the black siblings from his brown mother but from his yellow father who is most likely BB since he did not produce any brown pups :) You guys got it now? I think i got confused/ am confused as his dad had 2 yellow parents, his mum is choc and she has a black mum and choc dad so i assumed the black came down through those lines on the mums side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You guys are confusing yourself because you are forgetting there are two genes First gene (E) controls if the dog is yellow (ee) or black/brown (E-). Once you have a dog who is E- the second gene (B) THEN controls if the dog is brown (bb) or black (B-). If the dog is yellow it doesn't matter what the B gene is because it only works on dogs that are (E-). So a yellow dog can "hide" both black and brown, and a brown or black dog can "hide" yellow. A brown dog cannot hide black, but if the other partner is (B-) then that will over ride the recessive to produce black. In all cases the "hidden" gene can only be expressed if the other partner has the correct genotype to bring it to the fore. So in Gibbs case he did not get the black siblings from his brown mother but from his yellow father who is most likely BB since he did not produce any brown pups :) You guys got it now? Was starting to get it before, but yours was clearer than the internet mumbo jumbo as it was in more English Your explanation needed to be read over just as many times as all the other ones to sink in, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 the confusing part is as mirawee said, that it is on two genes... yellow (which can mask black/choc) and the black/choc gene. If the yellow gene didnt exist, it would be a case of remembering that black is dominant to chocolate. You can have three different possibilities then, Homozygous Black (black dog, not carrier for choc - BB), Heterozygous Black (Black dog, Choc carrier - Bb) and Homozygous Choc (chocolate dog - bb). When you introduce the yellow gene, the presence or non-presence of the yellow gene (Ee or ee) dictates whether you will see the black or chocolate. a chocolate dog cannot carry black, because chocolate is bb, but it can carry yellow (Ee). In this case MG Gibbs' granddam being black would have been black carrying chocolate and maybe yellow, and Gibbs' mum being chocolate would have the bb which could never produce black unless the sire carried the black gene, in this case, Gibbs' father, who is yellow masking the black gene (eeBB) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason_Gibbs Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 the confusing part is as mirawee said, that it is on two genes... yellow (which can mask black/choc) and the black/choc gene. If the yellow gene didnt exist, it would be a case of remembering that black is dominant to chocolate. You can have three different possibilities then, Homozygous Black (black dog, not carrier for choc - BB), Heterozygous Black (Black dog, Choc carrier - Bb) and Homozygous Choc (chocolate dog - bb). When you introduce the yellow gene, the presence or non-presence of the yellow gene (Ee or ee) dictates whether you will see the black or chocolate. a chocolate dog cannot carry black, because chocolate is bb, but it can carry yellow (Ee). In this case MG Gibbs' granddam being black would have been black carrying chocolate and maybe yellow, and Gibbs' mum being chocolate would have the bb which could never produce black unless the sire carried the black gene, in this case, Gibbs' father, who is yellow masking the black gene (eeBB) Ok i think i undertsnad now.... I must be slow lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Don't worry, there is a similar set of genes in horses controlling chestnut, bay and black and I was trying to explain it to someone on Saturday and managed to get myself confused let alone her! In my defence it was very hot and I was melting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 ST, your explanation was great! The great majority of us do understand there are 2 genes at play here, but trying to explain it like you and mirawee did was proving more confusing than it should have been. Why can't there be a unit in my uni course for genetics, it's a topic I find fascinating! Hard, but fascinating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 the confusing part is as mirawee said, that it is on two genes... yellow (which can mask black/choc) and the black/choc gene. If the yellow gene didnt exist, it would be a case of remembering that black is dominant to chocolate. You can have three different possibilities then, Homozygous Black (black dog, not carrier for choc - BB), Heterozygous Black (Black dog, Choc carrier - Bb) and Homozygous Choc (chocolate dog - bb). When you introduce the yellow gene, the presence or non-presence of the yellow gene (Ee or ee) dictates whether you will see the black or chocolate. a chocolate dog cannot carry black, because chocolate is bb, but it can carry yellow (Ee). In this case MG Gibbs' granddam being black would have been black carrying chocolate and maybe yellow, and Gibbs' mum being chocolate would have the bb which could never produce black unless the sire carried the black gene, in this case, Gibbs' father, who is yellow masking the black gene (eeBB) Oh that makes sense now, I understood that there was 2 genes from Mirawee said, but I didn't understand how they work together...now I know lol So is this possible, homozygous black bitch, if bred to yellow, can she produce yellow pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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