Working Out Genes For Colour In My Dogs

[dog geek]

Okay, I must be bored :laugh: I just spent two or three days trying to work out which genes my dogs have...

Anyone care to cast an eye over my efforts?

I am a little confused as to whether I am supposed to put two of each gene (A^yA^y), or instead just one (A^y)...

...or indeed if some of the genes for colour are represented by two, and some of them by just one...

So I have:

Comet (Char's Portentious Parti)

Black and White Particolour

A^sA^s/Bb/DD/EE/K^B/S^w+/Tt

and Daisy (Char's Love Me Love Me Not Parti)

Orange and White (Sable?) Particolour

A^yA^y/BB^?/CC/EE/k^y/S^w+/Tt

Who together produced:

Sumo (Enrgeez Th Parti Enforsa)

Creme and White Particolour

A^yA^y/BB^?/C^chC^ch/DD/EE/k^y/S^w-/?

and Puppycop (Enrgeez Furst Azleep AtThParti)

Black and White Particolour

A^sA^s/BB^?/CC/DD/EE/K^B/S^w+/Tt

And Nene (Enrgeez Parti Portent)

Orange and White (Sable?) Particolour

A^yA^y/BB^?/CC/DD/EE/k^y/S^w-/Tt

And Sunny (Enrgeez Parti Harmoniza)

Orange and White (Sable?) Particolour

A^yA^y/BB^?/CC/DD/EE/k^y/S^w+/Tt

And then, Comet was put over:

Dotty (Dochlaggie Parti Peridot)

Black and White Particolour

Who produced Jester (Posmo Y So Serious)

Chocolate and White Particolour

A^sA^s/bb/CC/DD/EE/K^B/S^w-/Tt

And now Comet has gone over :

Sweetie (Sabalee Glamour Lite Girl)

Cream (Particolour?)

A^yA^y/BB^?/c^chc^ch/DD/ee/K^B/S^p?/Tt

And I have just brought in:

Ginger (reg. name pending)

Blue and Tan

a^ta^t/BB^?/CC/dd/EE/k^y/SS/tt

NB: now that I have Ginger, I am not going to use Sweetie in my breeding program; her pups will be pet homed but will at least provide information on Comet's dominances...

[Alyosha]

Daisy isn't sable, or she would show black guard hairs. Either she or Comet must carry a sable gene though. :D

What colours are in their pedigrees?

Why the change of heart with Sweetie?

[dog geek]

Hi, Alyosha, are your kids back at school yet? Mine are still cluttering up the house...

Ah, but she does have dark black vibrissae, which was one indicator of sable; and also, here is a picture of her as a puppy:

Daisy has Orange, Black, and Sable Particolour in her immediate ancestry; and Black and Tan Particolour a bit further back as well as the three colours already mentioned...

I had bought Sweetie because I couldn't get Ginger (or her littersister, or half-sisters) until her purchase fell through.

Sweetie has conformation that I really wasn't keen to add to my breeding program unless I really had to, her legs are good sound bone but she has short upper arms and straight shoulders and is a bit elbows-out; and her hips are possibly not good given she has patellas that are around 3/3 and is too straight in the stifle.

[espinay2]

My favourite website for coat colour genetics: http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/

[Miranda]

Sweetie has conformation that I really wasn't keen to add to my breeding program unless I really had to, her legs are good sound bone but she has short upper arms and straight shoulders and is a bit elbows-out; and her hips are possibly not good given she has patellas that are around 3/3 and is too straight in the stifle.

And you actually bred this bitch..................unbelievable.

[dog geek]

Care to explain the considerations behind your comment?

Are you concerned a pregnancy will strain her hips?

Or are you concerned I will end up with pups as unsound as her?

[Aziah]

Care to explain the considerations behind your comment?

Are you concerned a pregnancy will strain her hips?

Or are you concerned I will end up with pups as unsound as her?

I think the answer is pretty clear?

Why breed an unsound bitch!

Did you breed her just to get coloured puppies, I'm struggling to understand why someone would breed such an unsound bitch?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Aziah

[fifi]

I'm stuggling with are you breeding for colour only ?

because apart from Sweetie's structural issues, are all of them are totally chalk & cheese typewise ?

fifi

[dog geek]

Hm, I guess the short answer is, I bred her because I have been hunting the lines she carries from her sire for around six months now.

Not that I am aiming at being argumentative, but Poms are hard to find available sound specimens of, and sound Australian particolour Pomeranians are even harder to find...

The long answer carries on below - I do get a bit boring when the opportunity to talk about my hopes and plans arises... apologies in advance!

Sadly, of the two (reputable) breeders that I do know have these lines, one due to personal reasons is not breeding or selling, the other does not seem to sell to new breeders.

Those lines are old Australian particolour lines - so yes, to that extant I am breeding for colour; not her colour, though, as I am not convinced she is a particolour... but she carries particolour.

The other two particolour breeders I could have purchased from unfortunately have dogs too closely related to my own dogs.

This all meant I was going to end up taking some very unexpected detours in my breeding plans... and when this bitch became available, she became one possible detour.

Yes her conformation is not as sound as my imported dogs... but it is becoming clear that if I work with the lines already here in Australia, soundness in the particolours is remarkable only when you do have a sound dog.

My stud's first litter was to an Australian particolour bitch, pretty much same conformation as the bitch being discussed, but a longer upper arm, not quite so elbows-out, and her shoulders were better.

The male pup I have from that litter is better than his dam, closer to the Pom standard.

This male pup was going to go over the bitch in question - until I got a good look at her and decided to put my best dog over her, then use my pup over her best offspring.

As I mentioned - her sire's lines are very close to those lines I was hunting; they would be a worthy combination with my pup's lines, given the linebreeding to my imports that I was planning on doing.

Using her was not really worthy of a great deal of comment, I would have thought.

Do not most breeders attempt to improve on their current stock?

Have no other breeders ever been in the position of facing a bit of a dead-end in their programs unless some lateral thinking is applied?

Clearly, if she was the best I could do for the next step in my programme, she must have some qualities that balance her faults.

And surely, I must be confident that my sire is able to improve on most of her faults?

In actual fact, I am confident my sire can improve on bad shoulder, upper arm, and knee construction. He has done so in the two litters he has sired.

I have had his xrays screened and recorded in the ANKC program, and my imported bitch's as well, which is certainly not commonly done by Australian breeders.

He has excellent scores for his elbows and hips, and I went a little further and had their shoulders and knees xrayed and assessed at the same time, and his again were excellent.

I have a vet I am confident is able to accurately assess patella or joint problems - he has checked the five pups, sired by my dog, that I have - and all have excellent patellas, and no concerns about their hips, elbows, and shoulders.

(I also have ALL my Poms assessed by a canine ophthalmologist for the CERF program... I am pretty keen to improve the health of Australian Poms)

Oh - and the qualitiies I felt outweighed this bitch's faults were:

She has excellent dentition; excellent black pigment; good coat; nice tight feet; good short neck; plenty of rib; good size (not too small); she is fit, healthy, and active; she free-whelped five pups in her first litter; and she has an excellent temperament, really just what I like in a Pom.

Would be nice to have had a better choice than her - in fact now that I do, I am greatly relieved she is not going to be contributing to my breeding program.

Ultimately, I don't at all mind explaining my choices on a public forum - as I consider my choices to be informed by:

1. a good understanding of the possible consequences
   
2. a dedication to producing sound dogs of my chosen breed - hence my outlay on two imports from stock that is formally health-screened by specialist vets
   
3. an acknowledgment that, while the majority of Australian Pomeranians are quite sound, this is less true of Australian particolour Poms
   

[Miranda]

Care to explain the considerations behind your comment?

Are you concerned a pregnancy will strain her hips?

Or are you concerned I will end up with pups as unsound as her?

Certainly I will explain. The bitch is unsound, she should have been desexed because she clearly isn't of breeding quality. Have you ever heard of breeding to improve the breed, do you honestly think that breeding a bitch with grade 3 patellas, hips that 'are possibly not good', and a number of other major conformation faults is going to benefit the breed in any way whatsoever? I notice that you say the pups will 'pet homed' so you are quite prepared to sell puppies from an obviously unsound bitch to unsuspecting members of the public.........oh but I forgot, they'll all be pretty colours and that was why you bred her wasn't it?

It is people like you who give responsible, ethical breeders a bad name, disgraceful behaviour IMO.

Grade III — Patella remains luxated most of the time but can be manually reduced (placed back into position). Flexion and extension of the knee joint reluxates the patella. Patient transfers most of the body weight to the front legs, bunny hops or carries the affected legs, and appears bowlegged or knock-kneed.

Keep in mind that patellar luxation is a heritable disease and we do not recommend breeding affected dogs. It is also very common for the disease to affect both legs.

Treatment is based upon severity of signs and your pet’s age, breed and weight. Conservative therapy is often chosen in the early stages of the condition. However, if the patellar luxation is a grade III, your pet has persistant lameness, or other knee injuries occur secondary to the luxation, then surgery is the best option for your pet. Even with conservative medical therapy, your pet is at increased risk for torn ligaments in the knee and the condition can worsen over time, leading to degenerative joint disease which is a permanent and painful condition.

[dog geek]

I'm stuggling with are you breeding for colour only ?

because apart from Sweetie's structural issues, are all of them are totally chalk & cheese typewise ?

fifi

I guess essentially I am breeding for colour only... so long as I am also able to retire from breeding in thirty years knowing that I made the best efforts I could to improve the health of Australian Poms, specifically the health of Australian particolour Poms, being a "colour breeder" won't seem like such a stigma.

Clearly, Australian Particolour lines need work - this bitch's sire, and the dam of my young dog, do have some lovely American and English dogs behind them, not related to my imports, but the older Australian lines do look quite different to the showline Poms in the ring now.

I personally prefer Poms with longer, tapered noses, in order to minimise tear duct or dentition issues.

I also personally prefer Poms of around 3kg, because I suspect minimising canines, to the extent we have, will introduce problems such as syringomyelia or other cerebrospinal disorders.

"Coloured" Poms are not a product of out-breeding as the Merles are; they arise naturally and in my eyes are exciting because of the difficulties inherent in maintaining type while producing loud and flashy patterns and colours.

'Sides, how cool is the whole colour genetics thing!!! Sooooo complicated, and hard to understand!

[dog geek]

BTW...

I am quite prepared to do my own research on health issues, I am quite capable of having a well-informed and respectful discussion with my vet regarding the pros and cons of using this bitch, and I think we can all agree that the AVA guidelines are a little, well, stringent when it comes to real life situations.

And mind you, my vet's experience with Pomeranians is why I selected him in the first place.

In addition, while it sounds like fun to rip off the buyers of my pups by landing the poor, unsuspecting darlings with dogs riddled with health issues... I actually have been responding to all the inquiries I have received with full disclosure of the health screening etc I adhere to - to the extent that the more serious they get, the more information I provide, including copies of the health screening results of the pup - and its parents, too.

With the most recent enquiries, I have, upon initial contact, directly informed the prospective buyers of the untested health status of the dam of the future litter, and described her potential genetic contributions to the pups.

Not sure if I still qualify as giving "responsible, ethical breeders a bad name"... nor if I am indulging in disgraceful behaviour...?

...and may I just say - thankyou, I think their colours are pretty too!

Edited January 31, 2012 by dog geek

[LizT]

I have to say dog geek that most of your reasoning is sound , (unlike the bitch) however I am having trouble getting past breeding a grade 3 pattelar bitch, being involved in Cavaliers this puts a flag up for me.

However, your true answer on the soundness of progeny won't be answerable until the next or possibly further generations.

[LizT]

I'm stuggling with are you breeding for colour only ?

because apart from Sweetie's structural issues, are all of them are totally chalk & cheese typewise ?

fifi

I guess essentially I am breeding for colour only... so long as I am also able to retire from breeding in thirty years knowing that I made the best efforts I could to improve the health of Australian Poms, specifically the health of Australian particolour Poms, being a "colour breeder" won't seem like such a stigma.

Clearly, Australian Particolour lines need work - this bitch's sire, and the dam of my young dog, do have some lovely American and English dogs behind them, not related to my imports, but the older Australian lines do look quite different to the showline Poms in the ring now.

I personally prefer Poms with longer, tapered noses, in order to minimise tear duct or dentition issues.

I also personally prefer Poms of around 3kg, because I suspect minimising canines, to the extent we have, will introduce problems such as syringomyelia or other cerebrospinal disorders.

"Coloured" Poms are not a product of out-breeding as the Merles are; they arise naturally and in my eyes are exciting because of the difficulties inherent in maintaining type while producing loud and flashy patterns and colours.

'Sides, how cool is the whole colour genetics thing!!! Sooooo complicated, and hard to understand!

I have to ask...'cos they are cool...did the colour originate from the Papillion?

[Miranda]

I cannot see any reason whatsoever to breed from a dog with grade 3 patellas and possibly unsound hips, these conditions can be extremely painful especially as the dog ages. I won't breed from any dog that has a painful heritable condition that can be passed on to its offspring regardless of how good the dog is in other respects, that isn't responsible breeding IMO.

[dog geek]

I cannot see any reason whatsoever to breed from a dog with grade 3 patellas and possibly unsound hips, these conditions can be extremely painful especially as the dog ages. I won't breed from any dog that has a painful heritable condition that can be passed on to its offspring regardless of how good the dog is in other respects, that isn't responsible breeding IMO.

Well, I would love to be spoiled for choice in selecting breeding bitches... but I am not.

Firstly, I seem to be having a world of trouble finding any Pomeranian breeders who will sell me a bitch - can't imagine why.

And then - yes, it seems such soundness is part of the genetic complement passed on by each parent, and that so far my sire seems to passing sound hips and knees on to his offspring... now that this litter qualifies as a "test mating" I have an even better opportunity of assessing the soundness of this hypothesis.

Finally - I failed to remember to add to the previous posts that I am paying for xrays and screening of the four pups I have bred and homed so far. Three of them are pet homes; but they have still been screened by a specialist for eye health, and will be screened for hip/elbow ehalth at the appropriate age...

... still disgraceful??

[dog geek]

I'm stuggling with are you breeding for colour only ?

because apart from Sweetie's structural issues, are all of them are totally chalk & cheese typewise ?

fifi

I guess essentially I am breeding for colour only... so long as I am also able to retire from breeding in thirty years knowing that I made the best efforts I could to improve the health of Australian Poms, specifically the health of Australian particolour Poms, being a "colour breeder" won't seem like such a stigma.

Clearly, Australian Particolour lines need work - this bitch's sire, and the dam of my young dog, do have some lovely American and English dogs behind them, not related to my imports, but the older Australian lines do look quite different to the showline Poms in the ring now.

I personally prefer Poms with longer, tapered noses, in order to minimise tear duct or dentition issues.

I also personally prefer Poms of around 3kg, because I suspect minimising canines, to the extent we have, will introduce problems such as syringomyelia or other cerebrospinal disorders.

"Coloured" Poms are not a product of out-breeding as the Merles are; they arise naturally and in my eyes are exciting because of the difficulties inherent in maintaining type while producing loud and flashy patterns and colours.

'Sides, how cool is the whole colour genetics thing!!! Sooooo complicated, and hard to understand!

I have to ask...'cos they are cool...did the colour originate from the Papillion?

Not these lines, it didn't.

If I could refer you to the famous Belyaev Russian Fox experiment... in fact here is a link to a cool site Cornell University have conveniently provided, describing the history behind the experiment:

http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm

And here is a link to the domestic foxes, produced by the original Fur-Fox Farm, being sold now as pets:

http://sibfox.com/

Boy are they PRETTY!

Edited January 31, 2012 by dog geek

[espinay2]

How about a long term view? Breed a parti coloured to the best solid colour you can get (result will be Ss (i,p or w)) so most will likely look solid but will carry a parti gene. Then take the best of the progeny to the best parti coloured or dog from a parti parent you can. Some will be parti and some solid. From there you can hopefully increase the quality of your parti's probably a lot faster than by using unsound or poor quality parti's to begin with.

JMHO but I wouldnt be breeding with a dog with 3:3 patellas (not even for 'pet homes' - there is after all no such thing as 'just a pet' and pet owners deserve sound dogs too!). But since you have done it I would be making very sure you inform potential buyers that their pups may inherit the condition (be aware there have been legal cases where breeders have been sued and lost - and had to pay plenty of dollars - for not informing puppy buyers in situations like this)

Edited January 31, 2012 by espinay2

[LizT]

I'm stuggling with are you breeding for colour only ?

because apart from Sweetie's structural issues, are all of them are totally chalk & cheese typewise ?

fifi

I guess essentially I am breeding for colour only... so long as I am also able to retire from breeding in thirty years knowing that I made the best efforts I could to improve the health of Australian Poms, specifically the health of Australian particolour Poms, being a "colour breeder" won't seem like such a stigma.

Clearly, Australian Particolour lines need work - this bitch's sire, and the dam of my young dog, do have some lovely American and English dogs behind them, not related to my imports, but the older Australian lines do look quite different to the showline Poms in the ring now.

I personally prefer Poms with longer, tapered noses, in order to minimise tear duct or dentition issues.

I also personally prefer Poms of around 3kg, because I suspect minimising canines, to the extent we have, will introduce problems such as syringomyelia or other cerebrospinal disorders.

"Coloured" Poms are not a product of out-breeding as the Merles are; they arise naturally and in my eyes are exciting because of the difficulties inherent in maintaining type while producing loud and flashy patterns and colours.

'Sides, how cool is the whole colour genetics thing!!! Sooooo complicated, and hard to understand!

I have to ask...'cos they are cool...did the colour originate from the Papillion?

Not these lines, it didn't.

If I could refer you to the famous Belyaev Russian Fox experiment... in fact here is a link to a cool site Cornell University have conveniently provided, describing the history behind the experiment:

http://cbsu.tc.cornell.edu/ccgr/behaviour/Index.htm

And here is a link to the domestic foxes, produced by the original Fur-Fox Farm, being sold now as pets:

http://sibfox.com/

Boy are they PRETTY!

While I am impressed with the colour I'm not overly impresed with the "Puppy Mill" style wire cages that in which the faeces can fall thorough type of lifestyle for these 'tame' foxes. Clearly we don't trim nails either? Probably a 'fox' thing so they can climb. Not that that's an option in a wire cage.

[espinay2]

Actually the Russian Fox Farm experiment is a good example of how if you choose primarily for one particular trait, other traits (good and/or bad) can go along for the ride and also be unwittingly selected for.

Edited February 3, 2012 by espinay2