Jumabaar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 You still haven't answered WHY you're doing the mating IF YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF RETAINING ANY OF THESE PUPPIES. What are you hoping to PROVE? That her male carries all the dominate genes for perfect patella's and hips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ah, rats, I had a nice little post all sorted out and managed to lose it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Wow, there you go, you learn something every day on DOL - I had no idea one animal could have all the dominant genes for perfect hips and patellas :rolleyes: I bought this bitch in early January, and she was in season for the second time since her first litter (five whelps) last year. I have, just over a week ago, bought a bitch puppy with much better conformation and exactly the lines I want. I had in fact approached this pup's breeder about the litter when it was first born, so when she became unexpectedly available and I was able to purchase her, I was thrilled. I no longer had the need to keep the two pups of this coming litter that would best fit my plans as part of my breeding programme. I am keeping this litter until 20 weeks to allow more accurate assessment of structural soundness. And yes - I have/am going to request that the new puppy owners allow me to pay all or at least part of treatment related to conformational problems (not just patella issues), although I will ask that they allow my own vet to assess the dog. Now, I am just wondering if any of the hundreds of viewers of this thread, registered today, have Poms that can be proven to have sound patellas... ...or have evidence (rather than anecdotes or opinion) of Pomeranians in Australia being generally sound and of excellent structure... ...because I am after all claiming on a public forum that Australian Poms are in general scoring 2s and over on their patellas... ...and here would be a perfect opportunity to prove my speciousness, you know, prove that in fact this bitch is not representative of the majority of purebred Poms and that I could have so easily found a bitch with scores under 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I wonder why you would try to "change" the Show Pomeranian, when you could go and have German Spitz (Klein) or (Mittel) which is essentially what you seem to have there. And you would not have to change the breed to what you think they should be nowdays. Maybe they would not sell to you either. Do you show your dogs dog geek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinaJ Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Sorry I maybe dumb but i would presume that breeding with a bitch with grade 3 patelas would not make carrying a litter any easier for her. The added strain of carrying a litter could not possibly be in HER best interests Still with all of your rationale that you've posted I really just don't get it. If you want colours so badly why not import a sound bitch? Yes you mention the lines, but where did her grade 3 patelas from, must hav been somewhere in her lines. Unfortunately the ANKC could care less about breeding with poor examples of the breed and as long as the state kennel club get revenue from litter registrations this kind of breeding will continue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Wow, there you go, you learn something every day on DOL - I had no idea one animal could have all the dominant genes for perfect hips and patellas :rolleyes: But you said your boy threw good hips and patellas??? I am confused right now as that would mean that he would have to have perfect genes to pass to his offspring, and that would have to override the bitches genes, thus would be dominant. That was the only way I could interpret your previous posts. And yeah if I thought a dog had dominant genes for a condition like that I would go out of my way to breed him to bitches with problems. That is the way these problems are solved (keeping in mind you still need to keep genetic diversity in the breed) But your saying that this isn't the case and that you bred him to her anyway....... :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadbury Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Which one has a litter due on the 12th of March ? (Litters Due in March Thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Morning all, nice and fresh and ready for more chat? Welcome to what is turning into a truly valuable and engrossing study of my breeding programme - truly, having access to such specialised knowledge and attention is very helpful, after all empirical science does require that we test our theory and subject it to peer review... Jumbaar, I did think you were being sarcastic... and since the inheritance of sound hips and patellas are polygenic I thought it was a big ask to imply that my dog had all the necessary dominants. Just going on his strike rate so far, out of the the eight puppies he has produced, the five I have been able to have assessed by my vet have had nice, tight patellas, and while none of them are old enough for there to be any point to having xrays done and assessed, they so far have had good reports on their hips. I already have imported a bitch - she too is capable of producing better than herself. But I do need a little more genetic diversity. I think it is a little late to suggest I change breeds, and there are differences between GS and Poms in type that make one more attractive to me than the other. It would be interesting, I guess, to canvass GS breeders' opinion on whether they would choose to associate with me, but I would not have the qualms about GS that I do have about Poms. I try to show my dogs, and entered both of my breeds' Specialties last year, only being able to attend one. In passing I would like to mention that I was treated with kindness and respect by the Pom breeders I met there, who all went out of their way to make sure I came away with a positive impression. I consider actually getting to a show less important than tailoring my activities to my children's wants and needs. This means that of the last three or four shows I have entered my guys in, only one of my dogs was shown, and that was only because another exhibitor was kind enough to show him for me. One of my girls is with another breeder who is planning on showing her, and I have entered some shows coming up... ... and finally, it is the unsound bitch having the litter in March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Well Im pretty impressed by your ability to explain why you have done what you have done. You have decided on what outcome you want and you are aware of the potential issues and what you may have compromised on. A couple of questions - was this dog born with a deformity in the actual knee cap - what Im asking is - was this something she was born with or was it something that developed as she got older? Have you had Xrays taken to determine this? Is it in both patellas or only one? When do you ordinarily test for the problem and is that done by just a feel or a further look via Xray? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dog geek Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Huh, hi Steve, Is out of proportion, I know, but a cautious acknowledgement (of the thought I have put into that mating) after so much sledging seems like a fresh spring breeze :) That feels like a cascade of praise by comparison... I am not very well informed on this bitch's history, and had picked her up just as she became receptive. My vet saw her on Monday just gone, three and a half weeks into her pregnancy. As I am sure you know, some vets just are not able to pick up dodgy patellas - this one does, he is very good. He said at least a 2 on one side, a 3 on the other, had no comment regarding origin of the luxation. I have had his assessments confirmed in the past by a different vet, one who breeds German Shepherd Dogs, and so I trust his diagnosis; but I am a geek for hard facts, so have my dogs xrayed and their films sent to the AVA/ANKC screening program. I had plans to have this bitch xrayed and assessed once she had had at least four or five months to recover hormonally from whelping, to allow for a more accurate representation of her actual joint health. Since I no longer need to include her offspring in my plans, it would take a bloody wonderful pup from her for me to have her health status formally tested. Steve, if I might run a thought past you - given: *the socialisation and behavioural programs I follow when raising my pups *the full disclosure policy of all health issues and possible future heath issues I propose *and the opinion of my vet that (seeing as the breed does indeed have patellas that are unsound in the majority of dogs) in a small breed, when experiencing such conditions, quality of life is not extraordinarily compromised... ... should I take her in for a spey etc on Monday, or sell my soul to the devil and allow her to carry the litter to term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I've got several thoughts - one of them isn't dong anything radical at this point and it certainly isn't anywhere near advising you to abort the litter. In order to answer you I have a couple of dozen questions which is going to take me a while to type up and sort through or Im happy to have a chat with you via phone if you would like to call me. The breeders forum on dogz used to be a great place where people could come to chat and learn and its very sad that that isn't any longer the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Wow. I forgot to check this thread since page one and missed all this! I think the only fault I have seen of you in here Dog geek is being too open and honest. That should not be a bad thing, and I greatly admire your honesty and disclosure - the dog world in general could benefit from more breeders being up front with the issues within their breed, and their active involvement in working upon improving those issues. Dog geek seems to me to do publicly what breeders all should do, and most would do it mentally and save themselves the criticism - be the toughest on your dog's negative points - ALL dogs have negatives. And then ensure that those negatives are a foremost consideration in any breeding plan. And yes, Dog geeks dog's can and do hold their own in the ring. I showed her boy from her last litter at a very large show in Sydney (over 1600 entries) and although he was fourth in his large baby class he was given extraordinarily good feedback from several other all breeds and toy judges who were there on the night, as well as long term Pom folks. I would've kept him in a heartbeat if I was not fully committed with my own dogs and family. Even then I was tempted to find a way... :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Huh, hi Steve, Is out of proportion, I know, but a cautious acknowledgement (of the thought I have put into that mating) after so much sledging seems like a fresh spring breeze :) That feels like a cascade of praise by comparison... I am not very well informed on this bitch's history, and had picked her up just as she became receptive. My vet saw her on Monday just gone, three and a half weeks into her pregnancy. As I am sure you know, some vets just are not able to pick up dodgy patellas - this one does, he is very good. He said at least a 2 on one side, a 3 on the other, had no comment regarding origin of the luxation. I have had his assessments confirmed in the past by a different vet, one who breeds German Shepherd Dogs, and so I trust his diagnosis; but I am a geek for hard facts, so have my dogs xrayed and their films sent to the AVA/ANKC screening program. I had plans to have this bitch xrayed and assessed once she had had at least four or five months to recover hormonally from whelping, to allow for a more accurate representation of her actual joint health. Since I no longer need to include her offspring in my plans, it would take a bloody wonderful pup from her for me to have her health status formally tested. Steve, if I might run a thought past you - given: *the socialisation and behavioural programs I follow when raising my pups *the full disclosure policy of all health issues and possible future heath issues I propose *and the opinion of my vet that (seeing as the breed does indeed have patellas that are unsound in the majority of dogs) in a small breed, when experiencing such conditions, quality of life is not extraordinarily compromised... ... should I take her in for a spey etc on Monday, or sell my soul to the devil and allow her to carry the litter to term? Ok couple of things - you got the bitch and mated her and didn't have her checked for patellas until after she was pregnant? If that's right you may find [ probably will] that her scores may be lower 3 months after she has the pups. The relaxin which is secreted when a mammal is pregnant makes the ligaments react differently. Whether or not the knee cap is deformed and has caused the problem or whether the problem may have been caused by things post birth is important too.it may be too late now for you to be able to determine whether a deformity caused the problem. Most people who have patella checks done only have them scored by manipulation but they really need to have the joints looked at via X ray really early to see if its something the pup was born with or something it acquired. just this alone will give you many more considerations in how you select in future if wiping out patella issues is going to be high on your list of things to try to avoid. As you are clearly already aware but Ill say it anyway for the peanut gallery the chances that any pup bred by parents with any or no score in your breed is at risk of Patella problems and regardless of whether you have used a dog with a 3 grade or a zero any breeder breeding these dogs would need to warn their puppy buyers that there is a reasonable risk of their puppy developing the problem. the experts here tell us that breeding a 3 is an increased risk but that isnt necessarily the truth of it and studies done in other breeds on hips and elbows show that breeding a dog with a higher score to a dog with a lower score can give a reasonable chance of a better result. If its a deformity then that's easy you can clearly check em all when they are new and see that on X- ray No point in just getting a vet you think can check by manipulation and give an accurate score because it doesn't answer how the joint looks when the pup is born. Now if the pup has good looking joints it has no patella issues. If it develops patella issues as it grows no amount of scoring of the parents is going to help much because its where the other 60% of the equation starts to kick in. It is when other things can begin to impact such as injuries, diet, environment , stress etc and any breeder no matter what they do can breed a pup which will develop the problem. So here you are what is the answer to this bit ? Carry on as you are ensuring the bitch is kept without stress or parasites and she is being nutritionally well placed. Dont sell any puppies until you have their patellas Xrayed to ensure they have no congenital joint issues explain to the buyers that Poms get PL a lot that you have checked these and they are all clear - either advise them to take out insurance or you provide the first 12 months insurance - i can get you a reduced rate on that if you want to go that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Wow. I forgot to check this thread since page one and missed all this! I think the only fault I have seen of you in here Dog geek is being too open and honest. That should not be a bad thing, and I greatly admire your honesty and disclosure - the dog world in general could benefit from more breeders being up front with the issues within their breed, and their active involvement in working upon improving those issues. I agree - No one who has been involved with any comments in this thread knows as much about your breed as you do and whilst its good to take on opinions and listen to experience and advice dont let wombats who think its appropriate to behave like school yard bullies and break the rules of the forum by personally attacking you influence what you do next with your bitch or your pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) I've been pondering this over the last few days Nic, because I what I was reading here didn't tally with the person I know who has worked her butt off on welfare issues. If this were me, and I concede that it is not and that having Afghans, Salukis and IW influences my thinking, I would not travel this path. I think dogs, even toy dogs, need to be able to walk easily and soundly throughout their lives. Cruciate surgery is a huge money spinner for vets performing it, it is frequently over/misdiagnosed and I would not knowingly breed and sell dogs that were almost certain to send their owners (or me) a big vet bill. Pat Hastings said a lot of useful things when she was out here about the influence poor construction has on a dog throughout its whole life, including the influence on its temperament. She made a great deal of sense to me, we all know what a back back or dodgy knee does to our own disposition. I've wondered before whether some of the "little shit" behaviour manifested in many toys can be tracked back to construction. If I had the space and capacity to run on entire litters, and I felt the issue I was trying to preserve/fix was sufficiently important, I'd continue with the breeding and work with what I got, being fully prepared to euth dogs that weren't going to be part of the program and couldn't be rehomed as companions. To home a dog as a companion I feel it must be physically sound. Of all the things one could work on in poms, I confess I'm a bit stumped about why you would pick colour over construction. I agree with Tash that we all have conversations in our heads, but the conversation in my head always gets down to whether it's going to affect the dog's quality of life, and whether it would be ethical to sell it on a) for a pet and b) to go into someone else's program. Yes there are things we sometimes make a decision to live with like white haws, a not stunning ear set, not quite long enough tail etc. In my mind those things are different to iffy hearts, serious physical construction issues, dogs in the line all dropping dead before the age of 7 etc. I'd put the muzzles AND the cruciates in the serious physical construction issue category. Mouths it would depend what it was and how bad in a toy breed. Obviously for a gundog or a hound the mouth becomes much more important. I do agree with Tash that Nic is unusual in her honesty and will pay for that. I'm perhaps in the reverse position, in that I have quietly kept excluding things in my own program to the point where it's taken me a few years to be happy with what I have planned for this year. This process of exclusion, and learning about and living with the things i had to consider has certainly decided me on what I am prepared to sell as a companion and what I am not. Edit: Perhaps not clear here that the point I'm making is that over that time a few people have advised me to just breed something, or continue with a mismate etc because I was taking too long to get involved. I have run into dead ends too. I'm looking for a healthy, sound, classic Saluki. Ticking one of those boxes is easy, ticking all three is tough. There have been a few times when I've thought - "jeez, I have no idea what to do now" and been quite upset about it. What happened for me was that a dog that wasn't available to me became available to me after the breeder had used him and was happy with what she got. That took a few years. Doors will open, if you give it time. Unfortunately I think this thread will already have made its way around pom breeders everywhere, and your job will perhaps now be a longer and more difficult one. Edited February 3, 2012 by SkySoaringMagpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I have to applaud you for being open about your plans. Like SSM it is probably not the path I would have taken, myself being very strong on the issue of health in a breed where, like you, I too am one of the only ones in this country who is health testing This has caused me frustration in the past too, having to put aside breeding plans (when others have suggested perhaps going ahead anyway) and start again. It can be a slow process at times and at times frustrating and along the way, like SSM, I have learnt about living with things that I would not want to pass on to a pet owner (having the personal belief that 'pet homes' are not another term for 'second best' and deserve the best dogs we can breed). Finding dogs that tick all my boxes has been a long and involved saga and yes at times I do wonder if I am being 'too picky' and at times have thrown my hands in the air in defeat. But in the end I know what I want and don't want to compromise on and know that quick gains may in fact set me back rather than move me forward towards my goals. Some times the slow path is the quickest one. I do like the pic of that parti pup above (though profess to not knowing much about Poms) and hope that you can continue the way you seem to have started, but noting what seems like a good start, like SSM I too am stumped by your choice of this bitch (based on what you have told us about her). Good luck with your program and may it be as successful as you hope it to be :) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) Well it's nice to see that Steve, Alyosha and Sky Soaring Magpie, all of whom are listed as 'Friends' on Dog Geeks profile page have finally come to Dog Geek's aid and commented in this thread. Sky Soaring Magpie I liked your post, very sensible and very fair. Dog Geek bred a bitch who by her own description has short upper arms and straight shoulders and is a bit elbows-out; and her hips are possibly not good given she has patellas that are around 3/3 and is too straight in the stifle. Short upper arms, straight shoulders, being out at elbow and having straight stifles are all MAJOR conformation faults, this bitch doesn't have just one major fault, she has four. In addition to the conformation faults the bitch has a grade 3 patella in each rear leg and it is strongly recommended that dogs with this grade NOT be bred from. It is also POSSIBLE that the bitch's hips aren't good, 'possible' means that Dog Geek hasn't had the hips x-rayed which means that in addition to the patella problem she may also have abnormal hips, both these conditions can lead to very painful degenerative joint disease in later life. Breeding such a poor quality bitch with major health problems does NOT qualify as a test mating in such a numerically strong breed as the Pomeranian and contrary to Dog Geek's gross generalisation there are some excellent poms out there. She did NOT have to breed this bitch at this particular time, she could easily have waited until she had a good quality, sound bitch, she bred the bitch because she was in season and she liked the colour. However when I said that it wasn't a good idea to breed an unsound animal and pointed out the potential risks to the unborn puppies Dog Geek couldn't have cared less, she then proceeded to defend the indefensible in a flippant, joking manner and made it perfectly clear that she would do what exactly what she wanted and was happy to pass aspersions on all other Pomeranian breeders in the process. Steve - No one who has been involved with any comments in this thread knows as much about your breed as you do and whilst its good to take on opinions and listen to experience and advice dont let wombats who think its appropriate to behave like school yard bullies and break the rules of the forum by personally attacking you influence what you do next with your bitch or your pups. I do not agree that the comment 'no one who has been involved with any comments in this thread knows as much as your breed as you do' is correct, I have read all Dog Geeks posts and have looked at her dogs and I may be incorrect in this (and I'm sure that you'll be happy to shoot this 'wombat' down in flames if I'm wrong), but I would hazard a guess that Dog Geek hasn't been involved in her breed very long at all, to me she comes across as a very confident newbie who thinks she knows all there is to know about breeding Pomeranians, who has read about the health problems in the breed and has then concluded for some reason known only to herself that breeding from an obviously unsound bitch is the best way to start improving the breed. I won't bother mentioning that in pure breed dogs type should go hand in hand with soundness because it is perfectly obvious from Dog Geek's posts that type isn't a priority in her breeding program as she puts all her emphasis on colour. I don't know what will happen to this post, it may be deleted or I may be warned or banned, but I will always stick up for what I believe and I truly and honestly believe that breeding from a bitch with major conformation faults who also has one, or possibly two major health problems all of which may be passed on to her puppies and to future generations is responsible ethical breeding and personally I'm surprised that you Steve, as owner and one of the directors of the MDBA don't feel the same way. I am also surprised that you've resorted to breaking the rules of the forum by calling me and a number of other posters in this thread 'wombats' and 'schoolyard bullies', but obviously you feel very strongly about defending this person. Anyway enough if enough and I think I've made my feelings clear, I will not be posting again in this thread. Thank you for reading. Edited February 4, 2012 by Miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Miranda this bitch is already pregnant and I don't happen to agree that flogging someone publicly is the answer to much at all.I call what has been done here nothing short of bullying and in case it means anything I had no idea I was on anyone's friends page what ever that may be. Regardless of what you say even if Dog Geek had been in this breed for one day that's still one day longer than most people who have answered here including you and me. If you are right and she is such a new kid What of the breeder who sold her this bitch and told her she was suitable for breeding and good to go ? What of the 5 puppies this bitch has already had . The bitch is having the puppies and if Nic didnt know before she sure as hell knows now what some other people think and Im sure she will take that into account in future but no one here can justify some of the personal attacks and things that have been said whether you agree with what she has done or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I wouldn't call a breed which registered 600 puppies last year - about 90 % placed on limited register and of the ones left on main only some suitable for breeding and put that with breeders who wont sell breeding dogs to people who are trying to get it too right a numerically strong breed. Suppose its about what you are comparing it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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