Anxiety And Physical/mental Exercise

[Weasels]

The kelps get "breakfast kongs" of frozen kibble/sardines/yoghurt with a roo stick shoved down the middle to make it a 'kongsicle' :) They love it and it helps them settle down just as I'm leaving for work.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Weasels

[Nekhbet]

Nekhbet, I am curious about a couple of comments you have made about anxious dogs. So I have a very anxious young girl & she is at her worst behaviour in our back yard where the slightest

noise will set her off her hours, running, whining & barking. So from what you are saying I should have trained that out of her??? Not trying to be a smart a@$e or anything but have I stuffed up?

I would be devastated to think that I have caused her anxious behaviour by not training her to relax. I know I have 'a lot' of dog with her & am not skilled up enough to deal with her at times.

That's why I read LOTS, trying to get some skills to cope & help her improve.

Stella has been very anxious since a 12 week old pup. I have tried to calm her & relax her & it helped to a point but long term she reverts straight back to her anxious ways. I have taught her to

lay down & rest, which she does do for up to 10 min now even with distractions. But I set that up when I know she is not aroused by something. If she is upset nothing I do or say effects her. It is

like she is totally zoned out & just runs blind if that makes any sense. Like a zombie. I can't reach her mentally to teach her anything. She goes from 0 to 100 in a spilt second.

Am I saying training is the cause and solution to everything? No. In some cases medication can help but at the same time a knowledgable professional needs to be involved to help. I have seen BCs with that same frozen look in their faces, it is very hard to get through to them when they start that. Genetics can play a big part, and in no way am I saying your dog is something you can fix with the click of your fingers. I think working with an experienced herding breed person is a great start for you. Geelong has a LOT of BCs, most off farms or backyarders and some you just push the wheelbarrow up hill for quite a while to get their behavior to a normal level. Not impossible just a lot more work then the average dog.

Changing a dogs behavior will also come down to what people are willing to do. Sometimes you have to confine them in a small crate and put a blanket over them, use equipment you dont necessarily want to reach for first time, sometimes let them throw almighty fits until that rubbish anxiety purges itself and they can use their brains once more.

Snook you have struck gold and I think you actually found a behaviorist not a trainer. You cannot change a dog without proper evaluation and understanding about what is driving the reactions. You're not fixing a wonky sit for competition you're looking at the whole picture. This is what gets me with a LOT of people who are now advertising they are more then trainers. You're not going to sort anything out long term or make a dog happy if you dont truly understand what every little twitch and movement being exhbited is backed with in that dog you're trying to help. Get it wrong and the mistakes can be horrific with the wrong dog.

As for my comment being 'poor form' as someone has said, Corvus over time has gladly made a point that her knowledge is supposedly far superior to mine and that my advice is worth nothing over her own. Fact. So yes I am very surprised that her dog at a young age had been put on prescription medication. I have read Corvus problems with Eric at a young age and over time so frankly, I think I'm well enough informed to be a bit taken aback that medication was used on this dog - unless what I read is not true.

Yelling at a dog achieves nothing particularly when he has not been taught to stop. Cuddling a dog that has frustrated you, that's enough to give you a two pad salute from that animal that you're not consistent or that nothing really comes along from you to stop him doing it. Bringing arousal down allows a dog to learn the alternative desired behavior, it wont stop a behavior totally, that's when you really hit the dog with a massive amount of reinforcement at low arousal and catch them before they escalate again. All you're doing is opening that brain for learning, not extinguishing a behavior. If it was that easy we'd all be out of a job :laugh: They are ready to think, hey why do X when you can be REALLY rewarded for doing Y? I know you're not into corrections so your road will be longer and you will have to be more on top of this dog, and he will shit you for a lot longer because there is really no punisher for his annoying behaviors. OK there is no reward but then, does he care there is no reward from you for exhibiting the unwanted behavior like barking or taking it upon himself to guard the place?

[corvus]

As for my comment being 'poor form' as someone has said, Corvus over time has gladly made a point that her knowledge is supposedly far superior to mine and that my advice is worth nothing over her own. Fact.

I don't have to make a point about my knowledge to anyone, and nor should you. If it's sound knowledge, it'll stand on its own two feet regardless of who imparts it. You have said some very sensible things in the past IMO, and there have been times when I've taken on board what you've said, and even times when I have asked you serious questions. You might not remember them, but I do. If I've disagreed it's because I've had information or experiences that have led me to disagree. When you disagree I imagine it's for the same reasons. Who cares? Everyone comes to where they are via a different path. I'm happy to share where I get my information and usually do. People can judge based on that.

In this case, though, I will gladly make the point that my knowledge of my dog and what I did and didn't try is far superior to yours. If I'm going to be credited for it I may as well say it where it is obviously the case. ;) Most of my information on my dog came from my dog, and I have shared the process of measuring baseline behaviour, making small changes, and measuring again that led me to compile that information. It's pretty objective and thorough all things considered. This is my dog's welfare we're talking about. I'm not content with a guess. I did get outside help. From more than one very good source. Everyone I spoke to assured me that I was well on the right track and already doing everything or just about everything they would suggest. Funnily enough "teach him to settle" was not one of them. But if you want to talk about this, we can. We did discuss tethering, but in the end I didn't really need it. I confine him rarely, but mostly I don't have to. If I want him to settle I tell him to come and lie down. Most of the time he will. If he won't he can usually be persuaded to by various means. And you're right, yelling doesn't do much. It buys me a break. Sometimes if he's playing Marco Polo it does shut him up and I don't really care. If a shout back achieves lasting quiet I am totally cool with shouting back. Often it cuts across the barking so I can tell him to do something else in a more normal voice. Like come over here and let's calm you down. I think I said a cuddle is like a quick and dirty Thundershirt. It seems to bring his arousal down quite effectively. Does it reinforce barking? I would say no, it does not. The barking goes down in frequency after a cuddle, not up. Recovery time goes down, and we get some nice prick ears and a soft grumble rather than a full alert. Uh oh, could it be the cuddle IS something that stops him? There's no way in hell I'm seriously punishing a behaviour that is so obviously born out of anxiety. Sheesh. There's a good way to either make it worse or shut the dog down. Want to know where I get that information? Experience, and pick your favourite world-renowned fear aggression specialist. We just had 3 days of this from Grisha Stewart. She's my favourite. Leslie McDevitt is another. The vastly popular Control Unleashed program was designed specifically to give people an alternative from doing more damage to their dogs this way. That's just two. If you pick Leerburg, CM, or Bark Busters, I reckon I could give you a page of names in return. If the barking was operant, then maybe I would. I know it isn't, though, because if it was it would have responded to other attempts to treat it operantly with reinforcement. Plenty of his barking is operant, like the Marco Polo barking and the "GIVE ME A FREAKING TRAINING CUE!" barking, which I was actually very close to punishing but opted for extinction/DRAB instead for two reasons. The extinction protocols are pretty heavy and not the kind of thing recommended by 'positive' trainers, but he's mightily robust in training mode.

For the record, I'm not trying to extinguish barking. Or poking. Or any kind of investigative behaviour. That is all stuff I want in moderation. He's not doing anything in an anxious state that I want good and gone forever, and again, if I did, I wouldn't be using punishment because of the anxiety component. You can't punish away anxiety. It doesn't work like that. There are ways in which punishment appear to 'work', but it's usually broad behavioural suppression, learned helplessness in some cases. If you want to have a knowledge competition on this, be my guest. I'll just reference my own papers. ;)

I think that covers the "teach him to settle" angle.

[corvus]

I think that covers the "teach him to settle" angle.

Oh, it doesn't, quite.

I mentioned the relaxation protocol. It's designed to teach dogs that being quiet and calm is a valid option for dealing with stuff. We found it quite effective for some things. For example, in new places Erik used to get impatient and bark at us like "What are we doing??" After the RP we didn't really see that anymore. He would just lie down quietly instead. He still seems to do that. I think the RP is very worthwhile, particularly for dogs who haven't realised doing nothing is actually possible and works. Erik definitely fell into this category. It's astonishing how hard some dogs find some of the RP exercises. We did Day 1 about 5 times before he could do the whole thing. I've heard of other people repeating it more times than that.

And of course, when he was a puppy he got lots of "time to settle, now" conditioning. We'd pop him in his puppy pen when it was time to chill out. He also spent the nights in a crate. And later when we were having high-as-a-kite puppy for hours on end we started massage and it made a huge difference. In fact, it solved that particular problem.

[Cosmolo]

Slightly OT but not straying too far. I have a young Schnauzer staying with me at the moment. My OH is mowing the lawns outside, the dogs are all inside. I am working away on my computer with dogs (including the schnauzer) on the couch either side of me but not very close.

I look over and notice the schnauzer shaking- the noise of the lawnmower is clearly worrying her. I brought her closer to me and wrapped an arm around her giving her a firm 'hug'. The shaking started to reduce. OH turned off the lawnmower, i stopped hugging. Now he has turned it back on twice and instead of shaking the schnauzer has just put her head on me- visibly more relaxed. Interesting stuff.

[megan_]

Lucy can shake out of genuine fear, but also knows how to "turn it on" to show me that she's scared (I've seen her not shaking at something, I look at her, she looks at me, and then she shakes. I'm 99.9% confident that she isn't shaking because she's scared of me!).

She doesn't like to be restrained with a hug, but responds well to "It's okay Lucy" in a calm but happy voice (not too chipper, not too loud). I used to just ignore her (the old belief that reassuring a dog is rewarding fear), but now I firmly believe that, if she's scared of something, it is better for her to be gently re-assured that something isn't going to attack her. I don't fuss, just let her know that it's okay.

Lucy isn't at all manic but responds better when she's had a good physical and mental workout. I think if she's using her mind she's too busy concentrating to focus on the scarey things.

[Lablover]

What are your (problem) dogs like at night, when you are trying to sleep?

[BC Crazy]

Stella is at her best of a night. She usually goes to bed in her crate at around 9.30 & you don't hear a thing from her. She settles perfectly. I let her out at 6.30ish am. If she needs to go to the loo during the night which is seldom she will bark, once, & thats it.She is an angel of a night :)

Had to edit just to add that if there is thunder storms or cracker night is on or there is rowdy neighbours , Thundershirt works wonders :)

Edited October 31, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Staff'n'Toller]

What are your (problem) dogs like at night, when you are trying to sleep?

Geordie is not a truly anxious dog but can have trouble settling at night if it's very windy outside or he knows there are possums about. Have had 100% success rate after putting on the thundershirt so far.

[corvus]

Erik is usually passed out from about 9pm on. Or he might be having a chew on a bone. He settles fine at night unless there is something out of the ordinary. It has to be big out of the ordinary these days. He can cope with a party next door, but not a thunderstorm. He used to get agitated if his bedtime routine wasn't exactly the same every night, but I think it was an adolescent phase. He apparently grew out of it. He went through an intensely routine-driven phase around that time that made life quite difficult at times. We just kept taking him out and exposing him to new situations with support from us. We always had contingency plans if it proved too much for him, but we never had to use them. He got better each time we took him somewhere challenging and at about 14 months started to chill out a bit more and become more flexible. I swear his second fear period went for about 10 months.

[Aidan3]

What are your (problem) dogs like at night, when you are trying to sleep?

Sabella didn't begin to sleep properly during the day until I began supplementing her diet with tryptophan. At night, she slept very well. Prior to tryptophan, she would settle and not make a fuss during the day, but she would not sleep. I attributed the change to an increase in melatonin.

[kayla1]

What are your (problem) dogs like at night, when you are trying to sleep?

Sabella didn't begin to sleep properly during the day until I began supplementing her diet with tryptophan. At night, she slept very well. Prior to tryptophan, she would settle and not make a fuss during the day, but she would not sleep. I attributed the change to an increase in melatonin.

Aidan which tryptophan supplement did you use?

[corvus]

That is interesting. E sleeps during the day, he just doesn't sleep quite as much as Kivi does. The difference is only a couple of hours or so, though. He doesn't really sit around not sleeping. Either he's sleeping or he's looking for stuff to do. Currently he and Kivi are laying in the sun together. Kivi is sitting around not sleeping but Erik is chewing on a bit of bone. It's quite typical. Erik reminds me of some people I know who can't just sit there. They fiddle. Erik is a fiddler as well. There was a study recently that found that many dogs got the same rush of pleasurable brain chemistry when they ran on a treadmill as many humans get. I wonder if it is also a natural mood elevator for dogs like it is for us and whether that's something we could use.

[Aidan3]

What are your (problem) dogs like at night, when you are trying to sleep?

Sabella didn't begin to sleep properly during the day until I began supplementing her diet with tryptophan. At night, she slept very well. Prior to tryptophan, she would settle and not make a fuss during the day, but she would not sleep. I attributed the change to an increase in melatonin.

Aidan which tryptophan supplement did you use?

The best value supplement is "Good as Gold" which is for horses. You can buy a small 50gm sachet for about $10 to try it. Dose for my 35kg GSD was a teaspoon of Good as Gold. Best given with some carbohydrate, I used to make up a small bowl of porridge and mix the supplement and some dry food in with it.

Another option is Troy Behave, which has the added benefit of a super dose of Vit B. I regularly gave Sabella a B vit complex anyway. There are a number of nutrients which are important for serotonin synthesis, but most dogs would not be deficient. Vit B is the important one.

[BC Crazy]

I haven't tried Good as Gold Aidan. Sounds interesting Did try Behave bet it didn't agree with Stella, tummy upsets & didn't seem to benefit her at all really behaviour wise either.

Do you know if you can use these type of products with meds like Endep? As I am aware humans can't use say St johns wart will taking Endep.

[Aidan3]

I haven't tried Good as Gold Aidan. Sounds interesting Did try Behave bet it didn't agree with Stella, tummy upsets & didn't seem to benefit her at all really behaviour wise either.

Do you know if you can use these type of products with meds like Endep? As I am aware humans can't use say St johns wart will taking Endep.

You should never give certain types of anti-depressant together, and St Johns Wort is included in that because it has at least one active ingredient which may potentially have an interaction effect.

Tryptophan is not a drug, but you should definitely consult your vet. It is a precursor for serotonin, and a sudden flood of serotonin combined with drugs can have negative consequences. It is the sort of thing you try if drugs aren't effective, your vet won't prescribe, or it's a mild case. It is considered by some vets as an early intervention for some things, such as territorial aggression and some sleeping problems (serotonin is converted to melatonin).

If Stella suffered stomach upsets from Behave then it was probably the tryptophan, in which case Good as Gold will be just as bad.

[BC Crazy]

Thanks for confirming that for me Aidan. I didn't think you could mix the two. I am always very careful with any form of meds as you can do much more harm than good if administered incorrectly :)

[Aidan3]

Thanks for confirming that for me Aidan. I didn't think you could mix the two. I am always very careful with any form of meds as you can do much more harm than good if administered incorrectly :)

Just to be clear, you can, but you should do it under veterinary supervision. That way you know what to look for and the vet will be able to make informed decisions about dosage.

[BC Crazy]

Aidan2, I did ask my vet about this issue & he said that he wouldn't advise me to use anything with the Edep. You can with some other anti depressants but not with that particular one.

[hankdog]

Thanks for the frozen kong tip I can thoroughly recommend them, Jake holds them between his paws and sucks on them, cute but annoying noise. It also seems to have inspired him to chew on his hide bones that he has so far ignored. He will sleep during the day but only if I sit with him, if I'm working he will doze but his separation anxiety means he will wake if I get up. Velcro dog goes everywhere with me ! As soon as I settle after dinner he's lights out.